Evening Standard Story: More Dangerous DOO Chaos

[DarloRich]

Seems to me quite a clear breach of H&S by FCC. Would I have acted any different to the passengers concerned (being stuck on a packed train for more than 2 hours with no information)? Not sure. Thus not providing a rescue within say 60 minutes ought to be a quite clear risk to life and limb, and should have been predicted and planned for within any normal risk assessment. I consider FCC completely liable.

What world do you live in?

So by the same measure when there is an accdident on the motorway the highways agency have to get you on the move within 1 hour AND walk round each car and tell you what is going on?

So after one hour you can get out of the train and just do what you like? That seems sensible!

 

[Mojo]

The 'company policy for evacuation' is of little use when people start bailing out of the train of their own accord, with a Driver who is unable to deal adequately with it because he/she is having to also deal with the initial incident itself.

You are correct, but we have to ask what level of information was provided to these customers and what level of ventilation did they have. I suspect if the train operator was in regular communication with the customers, even if to say that no information was available and to stress the importance of obeying safety procedures, then people would be less likely to take it upon themselves to activate emergency equipment on-board.

Of course it is slightly different in this case, as our trains do not have the facility for customers to release the saloon doors as the emergency door valve is not available for use by customers.

 

[BestWestern]

You are correct, but we have to ask what level of information was provided to these customers and what level of ventilation did they have. I suspect if the train operator was in regular communication with the customers, even if to say that no information was available and to stress the importance of obeying safety procedures, then people would be less likely to take it upon themselves to activate emergency equipment on-board.

Of course it is slightly different in this case, as our trains do not have the facility for customers to release the saloon doors as the emergency door valve is not available for use by customers.

Agreed, certainly regular communication, and of a good quality, is paramount. The information content will obviously be limited by what is passed on to the train crew themselves, but keeping in touch with the passengers is a must. As for ventilation, if the train was at a stand and the general ambient temperature outside was hot, then opening windows would be of only limited use - try travelling on a sweltering 158 with no aircon on a hot day, even on the move it isn't pleasant! If the train was packed solid then it would have had no noticeable effect at all for many people.

The point really is that it's a potentially very volatile situation, and the crucial thing is being able to deal with it if it all goes off. One person is, quite clearly, totally out of their depth if they are trying desperately to deal with the initial incident itself as well. A Guard has the advantage of not having to leave a trainload of people to their own devices, thus they are able to actually go and speak to people, face to face, sympathise and empathise with them, and do their utmost to keep them calm (yes, even on a packed train this can be done if you're prepared to make the effort). Many decent Guards are uncannily good at keeping people 'on side' in moments of hardship. By contrast, the best a Driver could do in this case would be to make an announcement, and after a while this does precious little to appease people. Yes, people can and do get arsey with a Guard and can still make a bad decision to leave the train, but if the Guard is with the train there's a good chance it'll be noticed fairly quickly. Just seeing somebody making the effort to be with the passengers will often have a very positive effect, and even in the worst case scenario, a Guard could have arranged for doors to be opened and ventilate the train for a short while in a controlled manner, rather than complete chaos.

I'd imagine that on the Tube there are a number of rather helpful natural factors to influence people's behaviour in a non-emergency, particularly the dark, dirty tunnel in which the train is sat being less preferable than the train itself; and as you mention the lack of emergency door releases means it's a long walk to the end of the train for most! Plus of course there's the comfort of knowing that help is only as far as the next station, which can only be a good thing.

 

[sidmouth]

What world do you live in?

So by the same measure when there is an accdident on the motorway the highways agency have to get you on the move within 1 hour AND walk round each car and tell you what is going on?

So after one hour you can get out of the train and just do what you like? That seems sensible!

If traffic is stationary on a motorway for an hour or less, how often do you see car occupants getting out onto the road ? I've seen seen it. Also in a car incident you are normally kept informed by the local radio station. What I am saying is that could be expected to bail and therefore should have predicted within a normal risk assessment. Some times the rule book works on zero risks (in terms of actual train operation) and then forgets normal human behaviour.

 

[DarloRich]

You are not supposed to get out of your car either!

Communication is very, very, importnant. passengers need to be kept informed, but even when they are they dont like to hear "sorry we are still waiting for news we will keep you informed"

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If traffic is stationary on a motorway for an hour or less, how often do you see car occupants getting out onto the road ? I've seen seen it. Also in a car incident you are normally kept informed by the local radio station. What I am saying is that could be expected to bail and therefore should have predicted within a normal risk assessment. Some times the rule book works on zero risks (in terms of actual train operation) and then forgets normal human behaviour.

Railways are simply not comparable to roads.

Personally, I would like to see it in a Group Standard that completely enclosed trains have at least 1 openable by staff window a carriage.

 

[BestWestern]

Railways are simply not comparable to roads.

Personally, I would like to see it in a Group Standard that completely enclosed trains have at least 1 openable by staff window a carriage.

That's a good suggestion, certainly makes a lot of sense. Does anybody recall the incident on a SWT Wessex a while ago, in which it got stuck somewhere for hours and passengers eventually used the hammers to break some windows, with permission from the crew I seem to remember?! With the removal of breakable windows, the emergency door release becomes the only way of ventilating the carriage in many cases. Just ludicrous.

 

[DarloRich]

Railways are simply not comparable to roads.

Personally, I would like to see it in a Group Standard that completely enclosed trains have at least 1 openable by staff window a carriage.

No problem - Your stuck on a plane on the ground for a few hours? Thereis a problem and you are stuck on the airfield but not at the terminal. Should you get up and force the door?

 

[Firestarter]

Looks very much like an emt member of staff.

Should he have got involved and helped as other people on this discussion have
suggested?

 

[causton]

No problem - Your stuck on a plane on the ground for a few hours? Thereis a problem and you are stuck on the airfield but not at the terminal. Should you get up and force the door?

You'd have all the staff on the aeroplane informing you and aeroplanes wouldn't be packed full of standing people... also they have lots of tugs to pull the plane back in somewhere safe to get the passengers back out again!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No problem - Your stuck on a plane on the ground for a few hours? Thereis a problem and you are stuck on the airfield but not at the terminal. Should you get up and force the door?

I'm on your side Darlo. Passengers shouldn't force doors, but there really should be a way of ventilating the train if the aircon fails.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree - better failsafes on the air con woule be good

 

[moggie]

I think most on here can agree that leaving the safety of a train and decanting to the trackside without prior instruction from a member of staff (and therefore inherent protection from other trains and electrocution from power supplies if appropriate) is almost certainly a less safe option. That is the natural conclusion from someone like me sat at their computer in a comfortable environment with nothing better to do that wibble on these threads (good that this one is by the way).

But - the point is that these passengers were not in a comfortable environment were they? Ok so everyone can put up with discomfort - many of the passengers had for the part of their journey before the train was stopped, and do so on a daily basis. But after a protracted period of going nowhere levels of discomfort will start to reach levels that are intolerable for some individuals and therefeore levels of distress will be increasing. Witnessing one persons distress can create a proliferating affect among others who are also experiencing similar distress but unable to relieve the problem. I'm sure many on here will be able to relate to instances of fainting on trains - usually just individuals. But when the whole train is reaching these levels of distress rational thinking by an increasing number of people will gradually dissipate and be replaced by degrees of panic - everyone will be different.

The point is that when people are stressed it is no secret that they will be prone to irrational actions. Give them the means to do so (a door release handle), a correlation to a percieved relief of their distress (fresh air / escape) and an individuals assessment of what is worse (the insufferable discomfort with no sign of relief against standing by a stationary train going nowhere in a position that appears safe) what would you do?

Now, for those of us with more awareness of the trackside environment than your average punter we may well make a different assesment (who knows) but I'm hardly suprised that Mr / Mrs AV punter takes a different view.

This is why RAIB should consider human behavioural patterns in the context of the single member of train crew dealing with mandatory Rule Book instructions and also to provide regular, timely and sufficient information and updates to keep the passengers from revolting.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I'm on your side Darlo. Passengers shouldn't force doors, but there really should be a way of ventilating the train if the aircon fails.

I thought there were some hopper windows that can be opened with a gated carriage key? 379s have them.

Not very practical on a DOO unit I know, or one that's crammed. Probably would be more sensible to have them held closed with a shoot bolt or electro-magnet, which disengages when the power fails.

 

[Matt Taylor]

A little off topic.......


The juice is off between West Byfleet and Woking as passengers have begun to decamp from a train without any authority, delays in excess of 150 minutes prior to the power going off.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

A little off topic.......


The juice is off between West Byfleet and Woking as passengers have begun to decamp from a train without any authority, delays in excess of 150 minutes prior to the power going off.

SWT aren't having a good week!

 

[TGV]

I'm sorry I've not read all 7 pages (to date) of this - just read the original story, the RAIB report and scanned some of your comments, so don't shoot me down if I repeat something that's already been covered.

My first comment is that I'm particularly concerned by the ability to move a train with doors open. Firstly because there should be (and normally are) interlocking safety measures to prevent it, and secondly because there should be a check in such a situation to make sure the train is in a condition to move before it is moved - given that it had suffered some significant techinal failure in the first place. I'm not speculating more than that until the full report comes out.

For my second point, I draw your attention to the Huntingdon-Conington incident of July 2005. Here's a bit of background: A down freight service failed with a seized traction motor just south of Huntingdon station on the fast line ni the middle of the afternoon. A 66 had been sent to assist with the situation. At the start of the evening rush hour, a down GNER service was routed on to the slow line, past the scene of the failed freight unit (a 60 for anyone that cares), and as the 91 was being routed back to the fast line, it snagged the wires. Headspan catenary - all 4 lines down and out. North of this, an up GNER service came to a halt at Conington in the same electrical section due to the loss of power. The outisde air temperature was 32 degrees C. I know - I was there. FCC had trains caught powerless at St Neots, Huntingdon and Abbots Ripton.

What happened next was that the operators involved in this incident (EWS, GBRF, GNER and FCC) and Network Rail had to work out how to get anything in there to assist. The lines were all blocked with failed electric trains (the NR guy I spoke to at the scene said "It's like a game of chess trying to get anything in there"), with 2 diesel locos in the mix - one of which was immovable with a seized motor. So the 66, instead of assisting the frieght train, rescued the GNER set that snagged the wires. It took a long while to sort that out. In the mean time, up at Conington, without any shade, the temperature inside the Mk 4's was so high people were feeling ill and 2 women had passed out. Some passengers took it upon themselves to break emergency windows for air. At this point, I don't blame them. However, other passengers seeing these open windows decided to literally jump out and on to the track!

The trouble was - by this point, the GBRF 66 was now at Conington, but no coupling up could take place, let alone move the set while members of the public were literally WANDERING UP AND DOWN THE ECML!!! The up line - while powerless in terms of OLE was very much still an operating railway.

This incident near Kentish Town has a few similarities - passengers being delayed in a train with no provision for ventilation when the power fails, deciding to take matters in to their own hands and in doing so, actually making a bad situation even worse.

Someone asked how it took so long to get something there to assist - I can only imagine, again, it was a similar situation to this. Simply getting something in there with failed trains blocking the way is a challenge. Even if you have the luxury of a diesel in the vicinity as was the case in Huntingdon 2005.

I'm wondering how long it will be before history repeats itself yet again, and it ends up on the evening news because a passenger, or passengers have been killed by a train because they decided to make their own way home in a situation they clearly don't understand. But I also think air conditioned vehicles MUST have a passive safety measure so that people aren't forced into such situations in the first place.

 

[michael769]

Someone asked how it took so long to get something there to assist - I can only imagine, again, it was a similar situation to this. Simply getting something in there with failed trains blocking the way is a challenge. Even if you have the luxury of a diesel in the vicinity as was the case in Huntingdon 2005.

Surely though the solution is such situations is to carry some staff as close as practicable and then make the area safe to allow them to walk to the train. With sufficient manpower to supervise (it may well be prudent to send some BTP along to help keep the peace), it would, for example be possible to open the doors for ventilation whilst ensuring the passengers remain safely on the train.

Whilst I understand the desire to get things moving ASAP, in any extended incident the safety and condition of trapped passengers should be made the first priority. Rolling stock can be fixed, people sometimes cannot!

I would suggest seeing a team of people arrive at the scene and start doing stuff, would provide a lot reassurance to potentially quite distressed passengers, that they have not simply been abandoned for hours on end, and that in itself would calm the scene and reduce the desire amongst them to take matters into their own hands (which I suspect may stem from a perception that they nothing is being done to bring them help).

Such an approach would also hep to ensure than any passengers who are medical distress have a better chance of receiving aid in a timely manner.

I'm wondering how long it will be before history repeats itself yet again, and it ends up on the evening news because a passenger, or passengers have been killed by a train because they decided to make their own way home in a situation they clearly don't understand.

As do I. Whatever we think about the common sense of such decisions, the simple fact is that in those circumstances the public will behave in this way, this has been proven time and time again, and this is entirely predictable. Keeping them safe means that this tendency needs to be managed more effectively, leaving it to the train crew do deal with potentially a few hundred distressed people simply does not work from more than an hour or so.

 

[TGV]

michael769 - you raise another good point. BTP should have a role to play in this if they can get to the situation.

I'm genuinely concerned by this kind of incident. We have been lucky so far.

 

[pinkpanther]

it isnt a simple rescue operation if the power is off!

If the TOC in question is farsighted enough to deploy diesel Thunderbird locos in strategic locations it can be.

I'll bet you a beer that FCC's contingency plan is woefully deficient.

 

[BestWestern]

If the TOC in question is farsighted enough to deploy diesel Thunderbird locos in strategic locations it can be.

I'll bet you a beer that FCC's contingency plan is woefully deficient.

It'd be a very good thing if all TOC's with electric fleets did this, bit I don't think it's that common is it?! SWT have their Electro-Diesels, Virgin have their 57's, but does anybody else keep Thunderbirds?

Based on the number of FCC disruption rants on here, I'd bet you a beer that you're probably right lol!

 

[ainsworth74]

EC have a couple of 67s on standby positioned in a variety of locations normally including Kings Cross, Doncaster, Newcastle and Edinburgh (but not all at the same time).

 

[moggie]

Strikes me that with the many / most trains relying on solely on aircon for ventilation, then it is entirely predictable nowdays that a prolonged period (say 1 hr +) of a train being detained in open sunshine on warm days without power will lead to a rapid rise in temperature to intolerable levels inside the train. (No S**t Sherlock).

So surely what is needed (based on knowledge of the initial incident and how long it may potentially last) is an emergency response team of NR / TOC people drawn from roles not involved with direct managment of the incident to proceed to site by whatever method is quickest. A bit like retained firefighters at small fire stations. Clearky teams would have to be located at various points along the route. The aim is to place staff on the ground, to assist train crew in relaying information while they concentrate on the saftey aspects of their role, to provide assistance and re-assurance to passengers, to put presence on the train to disuade the gungho type. To help in what ever way they can to make things as comfortable as possible - including assisting an orderly de-train if that becomes appropriate - bit like a site warden.

No doubt there are hurdles and expense but no action from NR and the TOC's will result in more of these instances for reasons I have argued on the other thread and one day god forbid there will be a serious incident (which could be a heart attack through heat exhaustion brought on by sitting on the train) or indeed trackside because of unsupervised exit to the track.

 

[sprite]

A solution to the heat issue could be 158 style hopper windows. You need a T-key to open them, so should aircon fail, a gaurd can walk down the unit opening them. Happens alot up North in summer.

 

[OxtedL]

I think 377s already have these (or similar), and indeed, using the second video link as given above, the driver eventually appears to have done this in this instance.

And I quote: "He's opening the windows. Giving us venting. Using his alan [sic] key."

 

[ainsworth74]

A solution to the heat issue could be 158 style hopper windows. You need a T-key to open them, so should aircon fail, a gaurd can walk down the unit opening them. Happens alot up North in summer.

377s do have these windows but there is no guard so it's up to driver to open them but as it may take them an hour to fight their way through an overcrowded train and get back to their cab it isn't really feasible as they cannot be out of contact with their TOCs control or the signaler for that length of time.

 

[BestWestern]

A solution to the heat issue could be 158 style hopper windows. You need a T-key to open them, so should aircon fail, a gaurd can walk down the unit opening them. Happens alot up North in summer.

Yes, we have those but it isn't what you could honestly call a solution, unfortunately! There are four hoppers per coach, and it does very little on a very hot train If you have enough hoppers, like on a 150 or 156, it works a treat, but for whatever reason on aircon stock the thinking seems to be to be that it's best to provide a completely inadequate number of opening windows for when it fails! :roll:

 

[O L Leigh]

I saw a bulletin posted at work with regard to this event, as it has some bearing on our Cl379s which are similar in design and construction. It gives more details regarding the incident itself which made for interesting reading, and seems to strongly suggest that the major reason for the train being moved with doors open was passenger action undoing the efforts of the traincrew to prepare the train to be moved. No doubt the RAIB will get to the bottom of it all.

I'm not going to get into the discussion about DOO because I feel that this sort of event could happen on any train. The only reason why DOO has any bearing in this incident is that there was just the one member of staff to deal with the chaos rather than two or more, but the level of staffing on-board really wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the outcome.

What I will address is the "reasonableness" of the actions of the passengers. This topic has cropped up time and again and unfortunately opinion falls into one of only two possible camps. Either the passengers acted sensibly and rationally or they were blethering idiots who unwittingly made their own bad situation worse by impeding the efforts of the railways to deal with it. I know where I sit in this discussion.

There are only two times when you should decamp from a train, and they are a) when instructed to do so by the traincrew, and b) in an emergency. For clarity, there really is no discussion about what constitutes an emergency. If the train is on fire, has been involved in a major accident or there is a tiger loose in first class (oh god, how I wish...) then that is an emergency. Being stopped due to a power failure is not an emergency, no matter how unpleasant it might become inside the train. Clearly these passengers SHOULD have stayed put, been stoic and waited for the cavalry. As I have said on a previous occasion, spilling out all over the railway is only going to result in all train movements being stopped and delay the arrival of the promised help.

But this poor driver would have been up against it and no doubt did his best. We don't know what information he had available to give and what announcements he made to reassure his passengers. I know that, starved of power, Electrostars go into "load shedding" mode where the TCMS shuts down non-essential systems to preserve power for the essential ones, so I'm guessing the PA would have been working at least for most of the time if not all. However, the A/C is not considered essential and is, in any case, incredibly power-hungry. If it had been left to run without power from the OLE it would have killed the batteries in no time at all leaving no lighting or power for the radio or PA.

It's hard to know what I would have done in these circumstances. I would certainly have tried to get down the train to open what vents there are (only two per coach on a Cl379 and they're not very big, so it would still be unpleasant) and made lots of PA announcements for as long as the PA continued to work. Once doors started to be pulled I would have had a struggle. The chances of them not being opened again once I'd gone down and reset them are slim, so I may have elected not to bother with such a fruitless task. However, I would certainly have asked them all not to interfere with the doors and under no circumstances attempt to leave the train. I would also have been pestering everyone I possibly could to get something sorted about moving the train or seeing about bringing up some bottled water.

The problem is that when you find yourself in such a difficult situation you really are at the mercy of your passengers and there is very little you can do to prevent them taking matters into their own hands or to contain them once they have. You have to do what you can to keep them on-side for as long as humanly possible, and that means being honest, showing them you're doing all you can to help them and explaining to them the consequences of their actions. These things can be done without recourse to control or the signaller, but even so you're going to be facing a mountain. All these passengers want to be somewhere and want to know when they're going to get there, and you're not going to be able to tell them.

O L Leigh

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....My first comment is that I'm particularly concerned by the ability to move a train with doors open. Firstly because there should be (and normally are) interlocking safety measures to prevent it, and secondly because there should be a check in such a situation to make sure the train is in a condition to move before it is moved - given that it had suffered some significant techinal failure in the first place. I'm not speculating more than that until the full report comes out....

There is a way to isolate the Traction Interlock on all trains, this is provided so that in the event of failure of the system, the train can be moved. In this case it would be useful if the passengers are re-opening the doors after the crew close them. Equally, if the train has no power, the Traction Interlock may not be working at all.

....Someone asked how it took so long to get something there to assist - I can only imagine, again, it was a similar situation to this. Simply getting something in there with failed trains blocking the way is a challenge. Even if you have the luxury of a diesel in the vicinity as was the case in Huntingdon 2005....

If the train was at the entrance to the tunnel at St. Pancras then there are only two tracks to access it. If we assume that both lines had power failure and/or the train behind is a 319 (as seems likely with a near 3:1 ratio of stock for FCC (86x319s 24ishx377s)) then it is likely that the only way to rescue the unit is from the front.

Last I heard the tunnels in the core section are restricted to three classes of diesel loco, 31, 33 and 73, not exactly common these days. If FCC are lucky they have a choice of locations to get them from, but doubtless the nearest ones are either Peterborough (GBRf), or maybe Selhurst (I think Southern/Gatwick Express have one), or the SWT one (wherever that is), but that brings in another problem.

Previous incidents have been easier to solve as 73s have the neccesary connectors and coupling to couple directly to a 319 (this has happened at Luton in the late 90s early 2000s after a derailment), but AFAIK there are no locos that can couple directly to a 377. The 57's coupler is at the wrong height and nothing else is fitted with them. So they have to get an emergency coupler there too.

If the TOC in question is farsighted enough to deploy diesel Thunderbird locos in strategic locations it can be.

I'll bet you a beer that FCC's contingency plan is woefully deficient.

I think part of it will be complacency, there hasn't been an incident quite like this before on FCC, but when there has been disruption it hasn't been as long because it has been with stock that is compatible and close by. If a train broke down, the one behind could couple up and push it out of the way. That is no longer the case all the time with the mix of stock they now have.

It'd be a very good thing if all TOC's with electric fleets did this, bit I don't think it's that common is it?! SWT have their Electro-Diesels, Virgin have their 57's, but does anybody else keep Thunderbirds?....

I think Southern/Gatwick Express has a 73.

 

[TGV]

Yes. True about the interlock - I was thinking that at the time the train was moved, systems were back to normal OR if the had isolated the system or it had failed then the check should have been made before the set was moved. Our sets have the same system (just fewer doors!) and those would be the steps followed when an emergency couple is made.