Train Fine IRCAS Chiltern Railways

[Ddkki]

Advice please. My daughter received a train fine due to using her 16-17 rail
discount card when she has just turned 18. When she was stopped realised her mistake and stupidly gave her DOB as a year younger. She then purchased the correct ticket and carried on with her journey she was not given a fine. 4 months later a £60 fine arrived to which I disputed, during the dispute period the fine was upped to £120. Anyway I have offered to pay this fine and am shocked to receive an email to confirm they are now taking this to court. My daughter is beside herself and suffers with anxiety we are at a loss as to where to go next. You cannot contact anybody by phone at prosecutions for Chiltern railways and the payment company ircas have a telephone system charging very high call charges. How can a company send a fine then decide to take an 18 year old to court. I am absolutely disgusted I have now read reviews of ircas and I am in shock how this company are allowed to operate in this way. Any advice would be appreciated

 

[Gloster]

The experts will need to see the paperwork that she has been sent in order to know exactly what is involved. Please post it in this thread, but remember to obscure her name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[methecooldude]

Advice please. My daughter received a train fine due to using her 16-17 rail
discount card when she has just turned 18. When she was stopped realised her mistake and stupidly gave her DOB as a year younger. She then purchased the correct ticket and carried on with her journey she was not given a fine. 4 months later a £60 fine arrived to which I disputed, during the dispute period the fine was upped to £120. Anyway I have offered to pay this fine and am shocked to receive an email to confirm they are now taking this to court. My daughter is beside herself and suffers with anxiety we are at a loss as to where to go next. You cannot contact anybody by phone at prosecutions for Chiltern railways and the payment company ircas have a telephone system charging very high call charges. How can a company send a fine then decide to take an 18 year old to court. I am absolutely disgusted I have now read reviews of ircas and I am in shock how this company are allowed to operate in this way. Any advice would be appreciated

A fine can only be issued by the court, what your daughter recieved, assuming without seeing the paperwork, was an out of court settlement, this can be, and it seems has been, withdrawn at any time.
The 16-17 saver would have expired on her 18th birthday and it is her responsibility to check this
Furthermore she committed a further offence by giving information, namely her date of birth, she knows to be false.

 

[Ddkki]

The experts will need to see the paperwork that she has been sent in order to know exactly what is involved. Please post it in this thread, but remember to obscure her name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[Haywain]

How can a company send a fine then decide to take an 18 year old to court.

They offered an opportunity to settle the matter without court action. If it hasn’t been paid the next step is clear. However, you must have received further correspondence on this so please post that along with the response you sent so that we can give appropriate advice. Please be aware that in giving the wrong date of birth your daughter has demonstrated intent to avoid the correct fare, moving this on from a simple mistake.

I have now read reviews of ircas and I am in shock how this company are allowed to operate in this way.

IRCAS are simply acting as a payment portal here, so there really isn’t much they can do other than accept a payment.

 

[Titfield]

Please post up the remainder of the paperwork with personal details suitably obscured.

Have they given you a reason for proceeding to court or do we assume it is due to non acceptance of their offer(s) to settle out of court?

 

[Bluejays]

Advice please. My daughter received a train fine due to using her 16-17 rail
discount card when she has just turned 18. When she was stopped realised her mistake and stupidly gave her DOB as a year younger. She then purchased the correct ticket and carried on with her journey she was not given a fine. 4 months later a £60 fine arrived to which I disputed, during the dispute period the fine was upped to £120. Anyway I have offered to pay this fine and am shocked to receive an email to confirm they are now taking this to court. My daughter is beside herself and suffers with anxiety we are at a loss as to where to go next. You cannot contact anybody by phone at prosecutions for Chiltern railways and the payment company ircas have a telephone system charging very high call charges. How can a company send a fine then decide to take an 18 year old to court. I am absolutely disgusted I have now read reviews of ircas and I am in shock how this company are allowed to operate in this way. Any advice would be appreciated

You mention a 'dispute period', I'm slightly confused by this as I don't see any reference to a dispute period in the letter they sent. They offered a chance to settle this matter out of court, you refused, so they've taken it to court.

Matter may be salvageable, but I'd suggest it's going to require a letter where you ask graciously rather than demand.

 

[Ddkki]

You mention a 'dispute period', I'm slightly confused by this as I don't see any reference to a dispute period in the letter they sent. They offered a chance to settle this matter out of court, you refused, so they've taken it to court.

Matter may be salvageable, but I'd suggest it's going to require a letter where you ask graciously rather than demand.

When I say dispute period I assumed me sending an email querying and asking for further information would mean the fine amount would remain the same until It was resolved. I did not think for one minute it would be doubled.

 

[AlterEgo]

When I say dispute period I assumed me sending an email querying and asking for further information would mean the fine amount would remain the same until It was resolved. I did not think for one minute it would be doubled.

I'm afraid not - your daughter committed an offence and they offered to dispose of this without prosecution for £60. Settlements don't get more "lenient" than that, especially as she is an adult who tried to evade the fare and gave a false date of birth.

When you say you have "offered to pay this fine" - what do you mean? You offered to pay £60 after the settlement amount increased, or you offered to pay £120?

 

[Ddkki]

Please post up the remainder of the paperwork with personal details suitably obscured.

Have they given you a reason for proceeding to court or do we assume it is due to non acceptance of their offer(s) to settle out of court?

Hi I initially replied saying I was not happy with the fine doubling as assumed it had doubled due to the response from Chiltern railways being so slow. However I have since been told today it has doubled as they now know my daughter is 18. Had this been made clear in earlier communication I would have understood and paid. my Daughter was not given any kind of fine at the station so was a bit of a shock to receive the fine 4 months later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

I'm afraid not - your daughter committed an offence and they offered to dispose of this without prosecution for £60. Settlements don't get more "lenient" than that, especially as she is an adult who tried to evade the fare and gave a false date of birth.

When you say you have "offered to pay this fine" - what do you mean? You offered to pay £60 after the settlement amount increased, or you offered to pay £120?

I have offered to pay £120

 

[SuspectUsual]

However I have since been told today it has doubled as they now know my daughter is 18

Out of interest, who told you this? I’m curious as obviously today is Saturday and I’d be surprised if the prosecution teams were working at the weekend.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

When I say dispute period I assumed me sending an email querying and asking for further information would mean the fine amount would remain the same until It was resolved. I did not think for one minute it would be doubled.

Unfortunately, you are in a weak position: your daughter is being offered alternatives to prosecution (a prosecution that the railway would most likely win) so the railway doesn't need to extend courtesies to you.

Your daughter has two options: to pay up, or be taken to court. There is no third way.

I appreciate that this sounds harsh; I am not trying to defend it, but rather I am trying to state how things are.

 

[Ddkki]

Out of interest, who told you this? I’m curious as obviously today is Saturday and I’d be surprised if the prosecution teams were working at the weekend.

This reply was by email from prosecution at Chiltern Railways today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Unfortunately, you are in a weak position: your daughter is being offered alternatives to prosecution (a prosecution that the railway would most likely win) so the railway doesn't need to extend courtesies to you.

Your daughter has two options: to pay up, or be taken to court. There is no third way.

I appreciate that this sounds harsh; I am not trying to defend it, but rather I am trying to state how things are.

I have offered to pay

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Please post up the remainder of the paperwork with personal details suitably obscured.

Have they given you a reason for proceeding to court or do we assume it is due to non acceptance of their offer(s) to settle out of court?

No idea as to why they have now decided to take this to court I am at a loss. i have offered to pay the full amount

 

[Bluejays]

Subsequent messages have shed a bit of light on the increase. I think my advice would remain the same though. Get a letter off as soon as possible asking to pay the £120. Can't hurt to ask again

 

[AlterEgo]

I have offered to pay £120

I'm confused then - why didn't you just...pay it? The instructions are on the letter.

 

[Ddkki]

I'm confused then - why didn't you just...pay it? The instructions are on the letter.

I have tried to pay it online but it will not allow me to saying it has been removed and subsequently received an email saying they are prosecuting

 

[AlterEgo]

I have tried to pay it online but it will not allow me to saying it has been removed and subsequently received an email saying they are prosecuting

OK, so you need to get back in touch with them on Monday and ask again to settle the matter. I am not sure if they will also add on their court costs, as they may have already laid information at the court to prosecute your daughter.

 

[Haywain]

I have tried to pay it online but it will not allow me to saying it has been removed and subsequently received an email saying they are prosecuting

As I said before, if you don’t show us all the correspondence we can’t give helpful advice.

 

[Ddkki]

OK, so you need to get back in touch with them on Monday and ask again to settle the matter. I am not sure if they will also add on their court costs, as they may have already laid information at the court to prosecute your daughter.

Thank you

 

[CyrusWuff]

Out of interest, who told you this? I’m curious as obviously today is Saturday and I’d be surprised if the prosecution teams were working at the weekend.

Given how many Chiltern cases we're seeing on here recently - and how long after the event some have been, it wouldn't surprise me if they're working weekends to try and catch up.

 

[Ddkki]

Unfortunately, you are in a weak position: your daughter is being offered alternatives to prosecution (a prosecution that the railway would most likely win) so the railway doesn't need to extend courtesies to you.

Your daughter has two options: to pay up, or be taken to court. There is no third way.

I appreciate that this sounds harsh; I am not trying to defend it, but rather I am trying to state how things are.

Resolved now, disgusted a £3 oversight has now cost me £800 I hope one of their kids is never in this position with the stress they have caused

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Resolved now, disgusted a £3 oversight has now cost me £800 I hope one of their kids is never in this position with the stress they have caused

I can well imagine that you and your daughter will want to move on and put this behind you, but please could you tell us what the resolution was? Did the matter go to court, or was this some sort of out of court settlement?

In all honesty, I'm partly asking out of curiosity, and you are under no obligation at all to satisfy my nosiness, but if this was some sort of out of court settlement it seems to be a surprisingly high amount. So knowing what happened and how the amount came to be so much may be useful to us if other people find themselves in a similar situation.

 

[Ddkki]

Hi yes we now need to move on, my poor daughter nearly didn’t start University because of the stress. Basically I appointed a solicitor at a cost of £380, Chiltern Railways then agreed an out of court settlement of £403.00 yes £403 over a £3 oversight, even the solicitor was shocked at the fine for an 18 year olds first offence. Chiltern have been awful ignoring an apology letter from my daughter who suffers terribly with anxiety. No empathy whatsoever from them, I along with many I have discussed this with are shocked and disgusted the way they have behaved. Yes i do understand my daughter paid a reduced train fair, she had just turned 18, the 17 saver should auto remove from an app in my opinion. Unbelievable the solicitor was also shocked at the disproportionate fine. We live and we learn, hope others can learn from this, just a money making scam who use their titles to scare people. God don’t ever make a mistake with a train ticket, it appears to be the crime of the century according to Chiltern Railways.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi yes we now need to move on, my poor daughter nearly didn’t start University because of the stress. Basically I appointed a solicitor at a cost of £380, Chiltern Railways then agreed an out of court settlement of £403.00 yes £403 over a £3 oversight, even the solicitor was shocked at the fine for an 18 year olds first offence. Chiltern have been awful ignoring an apology letter from my daughter who suffers terribly with anxiety. No empathy whatsoever from them, I along with many I have discussed this with are shocked and disgusted the way they have behaved. Yes i do understand my daughter paid a reduced train fair, she had just turned 18, the 17 saver should auto remove from an app in my opinion. Unbelievable the solicitor was also shocked at the disproportionate fine. We live and we learn, hope others can learn from this, just a money making scam who use their titles to scare people. God don’t ever make a mistake with a train ticket, it appears to be the crime of the century according to Chiltern Railways.

Thanks for letting us know the detail - it is helpful both to know how much solicitors can cost, and how much Chiltern may escalate their costs to.

 

[Starmill]

God don’t ever make a mistake with a train ticket, it appears to be the crime of the century according to Chiltern Railways.

It would seem to me that Chiltern suspected this was not a mistake, but a deliberate attempt to get away with paying a fare with 50% discount to which the traveller wasn't entitled. That's plus you didn't pay at the first stage of the process will be why you were charged so much as £403.

Most people who make mistakes will be charged either nothing, just the price of a new ticket, or £50 on top of the new ticket as a Penalty Fare. They could still technically be prosecuted though.

 

[itznonbine]

Do me a favour, have a look at the Railcard website on 16-17 savers.

Which app did you use for the Railcard?

4. Conditions of use of the 16-17 Saver​

4.1 You must be aged between 16 and 17 years old to purchase the 16-17 Saver.

4.2 The 16-17 Saver will be issued for either:

4.2.1 a maximum of 1 year from the date of purchase; or

4.2.2 the period from the date of purchase until the day before your 18th birthday if your 18th birthday falls before the expiry of one year from the date of purchase.

As per the very clear conditions, that railcard should have "auto-deleted"/ run out when she turned 18, unless there was some foul play at point.
Also the reason for the heightened fine, they will have suspected that she travelled multiple times since being 18 using that ticket, normally will investigate a pattern of tickets etc.
You and your daughter have been caught, her anxiety makes no difference in the matter (and I'm saying this as someone who suffers with anxiety).
I recommend don't buy a ticket unless you know you are fine to have it, in this instance, very clearly she knew she was above 18, and was chancing it with buying a 16-17 saver railcard discount.

 

[Haywain]

Hi yes we now need to move on, my poor daughter nearly didn’t start University because of the stress. Basically I appointed a solicitor at a cost of £380, Chiltern Railways then agreed an out of court settlement of £403.00 yes £403 over a £3 oversight, even the solicitor was shocked at the fine for an 18 year olds first offence. Chiltern have been awful ignoring an apology letter from my daughter who suffers terribly with anxiety. No empathy whatsoever from them, I along with many I have discussed this with are shocked and disgusted the way they have behaved. Yes i do understand my daughter paid a reduced train fair, she had just turned 18, the 17 saver should auto remove from an app in my opinion. Unbelievable the solicitor was also shocked at the disproportionate fine. We live and we learn, hope others can learn from this, just a money making scam who use their titles to scare people. God don’t ever make a mistake with a train ticket, it appears to be the crime of the century according to Chiltern Railways.

You will not find this any sort of consolation but the solicitor has cost you considerably less than we generally see, with specialists charging in the region of £600 to £800 for relatively simple cases.

 

[Ddkki]

It would seem to me that Chiltern suspected this was not a mistake, but a deliberate attempt to get away with paying a fare with 50% discount to which the traveller wasn't entitled. That's plus you didn't pay at the first stage of the process will be why you were charged so much as £403.

Most people who make mistakes will be charged either nothing, just the price of a new ticket, or £50 on top of the new ticket as a Penalty Fare. They could still technically be prosecuted though.

 

[Titfield]

Likewise this will not provide any sort of consolation - and is really for the benefit of those reading threads to garner advice - settling with any train operating company at the first possible opportunity prevents the rapid escalation of costs (and possible consequences) we now frequently see.

From consideration of the posts we see on this forum it is only worth "challenging" a train operating company on the basis of fact or on the basis of law. Appealing to their better nature or seeking some form of empathy rarely achieves the objective and that is almost certainly because the train operating companies receive appeals to their better nature countless numbers of times. If they were to accede to those appeals then the revenue protection function would soon cease to be effective.

The Tocs now seem to have a relatively standard administration charge of £100 - £200 for the lowest level of investigation. Regrettably it is hardly surprising that this charge doubles when further inquiries have to be carried out especially imho when it involves responding to a letter from a solicitor. I do wonder (and this is my supposition) that any correspondence to / from a solicitor has to be read / responded to by a legally qualified / trained person in the TOC legal department hence the doubling of the admin charge.

 

[Ddkki]

Good grief prosecuted over £3, my daughter also did buy the correct ticket therefore that is why we were shocked to receive the fine. All in all a lesson learnt, crime Of the century has now been closed.