Advice please - Charged by ScotRail for ticket to GLC via Dumfries due to disruption (26/09)

[yorkie]

As I understand it, other TOCs are obliged to help where they reasonably can.

If helping means their train becomes overcrowded at departure to the point that their own core passengers at intermediate stations are unable to board, leaving them with an extended wait for the next train on a relatively low frequency route, would this be considered as a reasonable reason as to why they couldn't help (or could limit the number of passengers they were able to help)?

Firstly, is there any evidence anyone was unable to board as a result?

Secondly, when disruptive incidents occur, there should not be any preference given to a company's "own customers"; the same standards should be given to everyone.

Thirdly, this is an entirely moot point as the customers had permission to board, from an authorised person; any charge to those customers made by Scotrail is unlawful, regardless of anything else anyone wants to debate!

(The concept of a company's "own customers" isn't one that I embrace, though I understand anyone who is a fan of a disjoined privatised railway system where each company does its own thing may disagree with me, but that's a whole new topic for a new thread!)

If anyone doesn't like the fact that the customers were lawfully travelling, and wants to make some proposal to change the rules, or attempt to justify the unlawful actions of the Scotrail guard, feel free to create a new thread; it doesn't belong in this thread, which is specifically to give advice to the original poster in respect of their friend's journey.

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a former ScotRail service group manager for the Carlisle-Dumfries-Glasgow route I have some sympathy with ScotRail on this. Accepting that my experience was over 30 years ago, the route is still operated with 2-car Class 156s and a relatively low frequency. It was very easy for a train to be rammed at Carlisle, with some passengers still stranded, if 'InterCity' had just terminated an Anglo-Scot there. That then meant that passengers from Annan, Dumfries, Kirkconnel, New Cumnock and Auchinleck were utterly banjaxed. Gretna Green and Sanquhar have opened since.

Trying to fit a couple of Avantis-worth and a Transpennine-worth of passengers into a Class 156 just doesn't work.

 

[yorkie]

As a former ScotRail service group manager for the Carlisle-Dumfries-Glasgow route I have some sympathy with ScotRail on this. Accepting that my experience was over 30 years ago, the route is still operated with 2-car Class 156s and a relatively low frequency. It was very easy for a train to be rammed at Carlisle, with some passengers still stranded, if 'InterCity' had just terminated an Anglo-Scot there. That then meant that passengers from Annan, Dumfries, Kirkconnel, New Cumnock and Auchinleck were utterly banjaxed. Gretna Green and Sanquhar have opened since.

Trying to fit a couple of Avantis-worth and a Transpennine-worth of passengers into a Class 156 just doesn't work.

As I said above, this isn't the individual passengers problem and doesn't change the legal/contractual position.

Th customers were following instructions and cannot be subsequently charged extra.

If I had been on that train I would have informed the customers of their rights and that the Guard had no authority to charge them extra and cannot renege on the permission they have already been granted to travel.

It is down to the rail industry to effectively manage disruptive incidents, and when this occurs there should not be any preference towards customers who are deemed to be any particular company's customers.

Can I also remind people of the notice at the top of the D&P section:

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

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(We are due to revise this wording in due course; if anyone has any suggestions on that please email intouch@railforums.co.uk)

 

[bramling]

Firstly, is there any evidence anyone was unable to board as a result?

Secondly, when disruptive incidents occur, there should not be any preference given to a company's "own customers"; the same standards should be given to everyone.

Thirdly, this is an entirely moot point as the customers had permission to board, from an authorised person; any charge to those customers made by Scotrail is unlawful, regardless of anything else anyone wants to debate!

(The concept of a company's "own customers" isn't one that I embrace, though I understand anyone who is a fan of a disjoined privatised railway system where each company does its own thing may disagree with me, but that's a whole new topic for a new thread!)

I don’t think this is so much about “own” customers. It’s quite clear that a class 156 simply isn’t going to be able to accommodate numerous trainloads of passengers. With essentially no way of lengthening the formation, this would be almost certain to mean people being unable to board at intermediate stations, many of which are semi-rural in nature and with potentially little prospect of people being able to find alternative transport. If you’re going to have people stuck, better for it to be at Carlisle where there are facilities, a better prospect of alternatives, and if all else fails a number of hotels in the vicinity of the station.

So to be honest I agree with ScotRail not wanting to take people, and as part of the wider picture this was almost certainly the right judgement.

I do agree however that those people who did find themselves on the train shouldn’t have been charged, especially if they were advised to do so by staff.

 

[Djgr]

This sorry tale is a great illustration of why TOCs need to vanish and be replaced with an integrated network, that operates as a grown up rather than petulant children.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Th customers were following instructions and cannot be subsequently charged extra.

If I had been on that train I would have informed the customers of their rights and that the Guard had no authority to charge them extra and cannot renege on the permission they have already been granted to travel.

It is down to the rail industry to effectively manage disruptive incidents, and when this occurs there should not be any preference towards customers who are deemed to be any particular company's customers.

Without getting bogged down with the legal position once a passenger was on the train, my point should perhaps have been that it was 'rather unwise' for anyone at Carlisle to be giving out advice to stranded passengers to just catch the ScotRail service, at least without very clearly checking with control and the guard. The may be something like a school party booked from an intermediate station on the G&SW.

I learned this lesson as a Station Manager on the Southern. A line blockage ahead meant that I had a well-loaded 12-car 'pulled up' at my station. We managed to source one bus with about 39 seats. Word spread like wildfire. Around 500 passengers streamed over the bridge to the station front. 461-ish then had to be persuaded to go back to the train and wait until it could go forward.

Obviously this was in the days of an 'integrated network'.

Not my best day but another bit of education. Every day is a school day on the railway.

 

[MadMac]

Here’s the thing about all this: what do we think the people caught up in this fiasco will do if they have to make this journey again? I know what I’d at least be seriously considering…..

 

[yorkie]

@MKJai please report this post, to arrange for this thread to be reopened, once you have an update.

In the meantime, this thread is locked. Once it does become unlocked, can I remind anyone who may be considering responding that posts in this thread must be constructive, relevant and helpful to the original poster.

Can I please remind people that hypotheticals, or what people think should happen, are not relevant to this case; the facts are that the customers concerned had been authorised to take this train, and therefore the charge made by the guard was not lawful, and the customers are entitled to a refund.

 

[MKJai]

Good evening,

My friend has just received a response from ScotRail. He doesn't authorize me to post that email, but to summarise ScotRail refuses to honour NRCoT 28.2 and no refund to him as they believe the responsibility should go to Avanti due to no ticket acceptance to travel on the GSW Line.

He would like to have more comments before any further action whether escalating this issue to the Ombudsman or forwarding the refund request to Avanti. Thanks.

 

[gray1404]

If he wants more comments then we need to see the email received so we can see Scotrail's reasoning.

 

[furlong]

You can also remind them of their obligation to honour tickets of other operators under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement:

10-2 1 Obligation to carry
(b)If any event occurs which is capable of affecting two or more trains of an Operator and is likely to result in passengers who are using or wish to use those trains being delayed by more than an hour, every other Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to enable the passenger to complete his journey on its trains at no extra charge.

With some caveats:

(2) Exception
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above only applies if the affected Operator could not reasonably have been expected to make alternative arrangements to prevent the passengers referred to in that sub-Clause being delayed by more than an hour, having regard to the length of any notice it had of the event which affected its train(s).

(3) Additional services
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above does not require an Operator to run additional trains.

(4) Additional stops
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above does not require an Operator to make additional stops at Stations if:-
(a) it is not entitled to do so; or
(b) to make such stops would cause a significant disruption to its passengers or to its own commercial arrangements.

and without compensation

(5) Compensation
(a) An Operator which carries passengers pursuant to sub-Clause (1) above will not receive any compensation for doing so unless the delay referred to in that sub-Clause continues for more than 48 hours.

 

[MKJai]

If he wants more comments then we need to see the email received so we can see Scotrail's reasoning.

As I have said, I am afraid I don't have the authorization to post the email. What I can only say is that the journey was disrupted by Avanti not them and Avanti didn't arrange ticket acceptance with them on the GSW Line, and this is their reasoning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2024 ==

You can also remind them of their obligation to honour tickets of other operators under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement:



With some caveats:


and without compensation

Looks like my friend can quote these to ScotRail, requesting them either issue a refund or deadlock letter.

 

[TUC]

Scotrail services on the GSW would of been rammed if ticket acceptance had been granted to Avanti passengers.

So what? Why should that be a consideration?

 

[Falcon1200]

So what? Why should that be a consideration?

Because Scotrail regard their prime duty being to serve Scotrail passengers at Scotrail stations?

I have great sympathy for the disrupted passenger and agree they should not have been charged another fare, however I can why Scotrail would not agree ticket acceptance; Their Carlisle-Glasgow service on the day of the incident consisted of 4 trains only, formed of 2 or 4 car Class 156 sets, and serve a lot of stations en route. Depending how many services from the south terminated at Carlisle, and how busy they were, Scotrail's trains could have become overwhelmed to the detriment of passengers joining at intermediate points.

 

[TUC]

I don’t think this is so much about “own” customers. It’s quite clear that a class 156 simply isn’t going to be able to accommodate numerous trainloads of passengers. With essentially no way of lengthening the formation, this would be almost certain to mean people being unable to board at intermediate stations, many of which are semi-rural in nature and with potentially little prospect of people being able to find alternative transport. If you’re going to have people stuck, better for it to be at Carlisle where there are facilities, a better prospect of alternatives, and if all else fails a number of hotels in the vicinity of the station.

So to be honest I agree with ScotRail not wanting to take people, and as part of the wider picture this was almost certainly the right judgement.

I do agree however that those people who did find themselves on the train shouldn’t have been charged, especially if they were advised to do so by staff.

Whilst it's not great, it's not the end of the world to be on a rammed train, especially if it's to help others get where they're going because of an incident.

 

[WesternLancer]

You can also remind them of their obligation to honour tickets of other operators under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement:



With some caveats:


and without compensation

Presume this could be put to Scotrsil whilst simultaneously raising it with Avanti to see if they will pay since avanti staff advised taking the scotrsil train.

That would at least prevent too much time elapsing before engaging Avanti.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Whilst it's not great, it's not the end of the world to be on a rammed train, especially if it's to help others get where they're going because of an incident.

Is it the ‘end of the world’ to be stranded at an unstaffed station in a small community with very limited facilities, refreshments, local taxi services, hotels and so on through being unable to board? (Especially in contrast with a large settlement like Carlisle, with the prospect of a relatively fast RRB via the M74?)

 

[MKJai]

Thanks for all your responses. Finally I am still thinking how to deal with ScotRail but I have drafted an email for Avanti to my friend requesting the below:

I kindly request a £25.7 refund for the extra ScotRail ticket ONLY and explanation of the reason for ScotRail refuses to honour NRCoT clause 28.2.

The above request is for the ScotRail ticket only as Avanti had processed a full compensation to him for the advance single ticket to Glasgow through the delay repay portal. I am also quite curious how Avanti respond to this matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for all your responses. Finally I am still thinking how to deal with ScotRail but I have drafted an email for Avanti to my friend requesting the below:

The above request is for the ScotRail ticket only as Avanti had processed a full refund to him for the advance single ticket through delay repay portal. I am also quite curious how Avanti respond to this matter.

How are you expecting Avanti to answer a question relating to Scotrail's rationale? They aren't going to answer that.

 

[Haywain]

Avanti had processed a full refund to him for the advance single ticket to Glasgow through the delay repay portal.

That is not a refund, it is compensation. A subtle but very important difference.