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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Howardh

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All this about "gifts" - if an MP receives a pair of glasses at £500; that's £500 they don't have to take out of their salary, so basically it's a tax-free benefit. So MP's should pay tax on any freebie above a certain amount. Shouldn't they? Just like if a worker is given a car from their firm?
 
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nw1

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Sorry.. been trying to keep out of the politics threads and avoid the news for my own sanity, and have been abroad for a while - but what is WFA? Tried googling it and just get various things like World Federation of Advertisers. Even WFA UK is brining up nothing.

Anyway, something a bit worrying today. One guy at the supermarket (customer, not staff!) launched into a rant about Labour describing them as [plural of four letter word beginning with 't'] and a 'puppet show'.

As far as I can see Labour haven't really done anything wrong. They haven't done anything spectacularly good, but nothing particularly wrong either. They handled the riots rather well and I think people should give Starmer and the Labour Party a break and be thankful we don't have Boris, or infinitely worse, Farage in power.

To me, the Populist Right are a far bigger danger. Am I the only one really quite seriously worried about the Populist Right and the increasingly extreme lies some of its adherents are telling to drum up support? Primarily I'm thinking of Trump associating immigrants with eating cats and dogs, and Farage going along with it - but I also recently met a (friend of a friend) woman who lives in Germany but is a citizen of another country (so ought to empathise with the issues of being in a minority). For one thing she claimed Sunak was not British (!) but for another thing she launched into a rant about Muslims, seeming to imply that many Muslims were not good people because of ONE incident in Germany where a Muslim apparently attacked a Christian for wearing a cross.
 
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Falcon1200

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As far as I can see Labour haven't really done anything wrong.

Withdrawing the Winter Fuel Allowance from the majority of pensioners was a serious misstep. Yes, for some it was just a nice little bonus, but for plenty more it was an important addition to their income. And having (rightly) slated the Tories for alleged corruption, discovering that Sir Keir, Lady Keir and assorted other senior figures had their clothes bought for them by a party donor was not a great look! Who knew austerity had hit so hard?
 

Harpo

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recently met a (friend of a friend) woman who lives in Germany (edit) she claimed Sunak was not British (!)
An area that Farage’s dog whistle politics has played to. When Sunak prioritised saving his own sorry a… over the finale of the D Day event Farage said ‘He doesn’t understand our culture’.

Similarly after the Southport murders, Farage implied that information about the attacker could be being withheld.

Farage very skilfully incites and has had the Tories on the run for 14 years doing just that.
 

nw1

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Withdrawing the Winter Fuel Allowance from the majority of pensioners was a serious misstep.
Presumably those funds will be diverted to other public services though, deemed to be more essential. Does an unemployed or poorly-paid person in their 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s get a winter fuel allowance?
Yes, for some it was just a nice little bonus, but for plenty more it was an important addition to their income. And having (rightly) slated the Tories for alleged corruption, discovering that Sir Keir, Lady Keir and assorted other senior figures had their clothes bought for them by a party donor was not a great look! Who knew austerity had hit so hard?

Maybe but as I said above, I think people should avoid being distracted by things such as the 'clothes' incident which is really pretty minor in the scheme of things. The stirring up of hatred by some on the Right, using ridiculous lies to do so, and the growth in support for far-right parties, is a far bigger danger to the West IMO. One example: we could have Trump in the White House in four months' time. Americans need to wake up to the implications of that. And we dodged a bullet in France over the summer.
 
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Gloster

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During most of the last government the public could see a seemingly competent opposition facing an increasingly shambolic government. Since the election The Commons has been in recess for a lot of the time, Sunak is just working his time, most of the MPs are keeping quiet so as not to upset whoever the new leader will be and the gloves haven’t come off in the leadership election. Once they get a new leader I suspect the fireworks will start again, which will probably help Labour as they should manage to appear competent in the face of a Conservative party that will be infighting again.
 

Ianigsy

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When the Winter Fuel Allowance was introduced, there were probably a lot of people who hadn’t switched over to paying their bills by Direct Debit and spreading the cost of their heating over the year. I can remember my grandma in the mid 1980s collecting her pension and at the same time buying stamps for the various utilities as an early version of the same idea.
 

Ghostbus

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He's doing pretty badly considering all he had to do was make sure his party, certainly himself and his Cabinet, held themselves to the standards of integrity, fairness and competence they regularly and vehemently accused the Tories of failing to meet while they were in opposition.

It's starting to look like a pattern. A mistake, such as hiring Sue Gray, is merely doubled down on, leading to perfectly avoidable political damage. Disturbingly, I've already heard Labour MPs suggesting their failings look worse worse than they are, due to a media conspiracy. It flies in the face of the assumption he had a tight grip on the party, and suggests all that happened is the less competent members were merely keeping a lid on their base instincts, until they won.

He needs to be acutely aware of the fact Labour didn't win, the Tories lost. I don't think he is.
 

nw1

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Disturbingly, I've already heard Labour MPs suggesting their failings look worse worse than they are, due to a media conspiracy.
Knowing how rabidly right wing the Mail and Express are, with the Telegraph little better, there could be some truth in that. That's not disturbing, it's showing awareness of the extremely biased nature of many of the British national newspapers.

The way I see it, the Mail and Express hate Labour to a quite pathological extent. The Mail and Express want to push their anti-minority, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, little-Englander agenda on the country and any politician or government who stands in the way of that aim is ripe for attack.
 
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londonbridge

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@nw1 The only “ridiculous lies” are those about the so-called “black hole” and having “no choice” but to restrict the WFA. If there was a black hole, why wasn’t the OBR warning about it? And if there wasn’t then why isn’t the OBR complaining that its reputation is being trashed. Could the chancellor please break down the black hole and explain why, if it actually existed, she chose to increase it by paying off the unions and the junior doctors??
 

nw1

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@nw1 The only “ridiculous lies” are those about the so-called “black hole” and having “no choice” but to restrict the WFA. If there was a black hole, why wasn’t the OBR warning about it? And if there wasn’t then why isn’t the OBR complaining that its reputation is being trashed. Could the chancellor please break down the black hole and explain why, if it actually existed, she chose to increase it by paying off the unions and the junior doctors??

Perhaps the junior doctors and public sector workers are more urgently in need of the money. I'm not sure it's a "so called black hole" as it seems to be well known that there is a problem with public funds. Both main parties, Tory and Labour, have claimed that. It's been mentioned on here often enough the last couple of years and certainly been used by Tory supporters to justify the policies of the Sunak government!

(And are you denying that the cat and dog nonsense is 'ridiculous lies'! If so, that clearly illustrates the gravity of the West's problem...)
 

JamesT

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Knowing how rabidly right wing the Mail and Express are, with the Telegraph little better, there could be some truth in that. That's not disturbing, it's showing awareness of the extremely biased nature of many of the British national newspapers.

The way I see it, the Mail and Express hate Labour to a quite pathological extent. The Mail and Express want to push their anti-minority, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, little-Englander agenda on the country and any politician or government who stands in the way of that aim is ripe for attack.
The most popular newspapers are right-wing, but they are increasingly a tiny minority in how people get their news. Conflating the newspapers with the whole of the press is where it's getting into conspiracy theory stuff.
 

Gloster

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The most popular newspapers are right-wing, but they are increasingly a tiny minority in how people get their news. Conflating the newspapers with the whole of the press is where it's getting into conspiracy theory stuff.

Newspapers still have a disproportionate influence on the day’s news because they are already out as soon as everything starts moving and give other outlets something to jump on. They also have the advantage that getting the news from the ‘papers is imbedded in a majority (still) of the population’s conscious. And many people still trust the written word, even if repeated over the airwaves, more than something that started in the studio.
 

londonbridge

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(And are you denying that the cat and dog nonsense is 'ridiculous lies'! If so, that clearly illustrates the gravity of the West's problem...)
The cat and dog nonsense is exactly what I’d expect from a total fruitcake who wasn’t fit for public office once, let alone possibly twice.
 

edwin_m

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@nw1 The only “ridiculous lies” are those about the so-called “black hole” and having “no choice” but to restrict the WFA. If there was a black hole, why wasn’t the OBR warning about it? And if there wasn’t then why isn’t the OBR complaining that its reputation is being trashed. Could the chancellor please break down the black hole and explain why, if it actually existed, she chose to increase it by paying off the unions and the junior doctors??
The OBR did say at the time that Labour was correct about the black hole being expenses committed but not budgeted for, and that they weren't aware of it. So while Labour may well have suspected that to be the case, I think they were justified in saying they didn't know.

I do agree that Labour has got their messaging badly wrong, and probably cut too hard on the WFA. They could have set a higher threshold for means testing and then made announcements like "this stops pensioners with income more than £[large-sounding figure] from taking something that they don't need". They've probably also overdone the doom and gloom which is damaging confidence and making lost of people expect the worst from the budget (encouraged by the right-wing media). And they could make more of positive developments, such as making a start on tackling the backlog of unprocessed asylum seekers, including deporting some found to be ineligible.
 

Ghostbus

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Knowing how rabidly right wing the Mail and Express are, with the Telegraph little better, there could be some truth in that. That's not disturbing, it's showing awareness of the extremely biased nature of many of the British national newspapers.

The way I see it, the Mail and Express hate Labour to a quite pathological extent. The Mail and Express want to push their anti-minority, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, little-Englander agenda on the country and any politician or government who stands in the way of that aim is ripe for attack.
It's disturbing that they would come out on television and say it, like it's going going help. They're trying to draw a line under the Corbyn era, yet their first instinct when they're in trouble, is to parrot Corbyn? Daft. It's basically them asking the public not to concern themselves with stories appearing in the right wing press. That's fine if it really is trash attack pieces, but when those issues have already been top billing on all the BBC platforms for weeks, it's pretty dumb.
 

Markdvdman

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What people do not realise Labour is going to attack the Private Sector companies with all the subtle taxes when the budget arises. They are paying billions out to public sector workers when us tax payers in the private sector are funding! Without a private sector there could be no private sector. Look at Venezuela for what socialism does. It does not work in this society anymore! I voted reform as the main parties are both pathetic! We need change as we are at 100% borrowing of GDP and that has to stop!!!
 

nw1

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What people do not realise Labour is going to attack the Private Sector companies with all the subtle taxes when the budget arises. They are paying billions out to public sector workers when us tax payers in the private sector are funding! o Without a private sector there could be no private sector. Look at Venezuela for what socialism does. It does not work in this society anymore! I voted reform as the main parties are both pathetic! We need change as we are at 100% borrowing of GDP and that has to stop!!!
Yes, blame the public sector workers, that's right. I remember seeing this kind of attitude in the early 2010s when the refuse workers of the local (Tory) council went on strike. Rather than attacking the Tories in power, the local paper was full of people whinging and whining about "cushy" public sector workers. Yeah right. The council refuse workers are the real elite, not the likes of the faux-working-class Farage.

And the current Labour party are in no way hardline socialists. They're basically centrist, maybe very soft-left. They just aren't right wing.
 
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takno

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What people do not realise Labour is going to attack the Private Sector companies with all the subtle taxes when the budget arises. They are paying billions out to public sector workers when us tax payers in the private sector are funding! Without a private sector there could be no private sector. Look at Venezuela for what socialism does. It does not work in this society anymore! I voted reform as the main parties are both pathetic! We need change as we are at 100% borrowing of GDP and that has to stop!!!
Is there a Reform style-guide which mandates that exclamation marks are the only allowable punctuation? There's something almost reassuringly deranged about the "something that isn't true! invalid inference!! non-sequitur!! random reference to socialism! we have to fight the nurses!!!" structure of all the "arguments" from that direction.
 

Markdvdman

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Well how about the lunatic net zero policy where they are going to destroy farms and help to cut food production? It will cost a gigantic amount to the tax payer yet expect us to swallow the lies that bills will come down? What happens when there is no sun or wind? The laws of physics prevent batteries storing power with degradation. Roll on May for the bye elections. Labour are as bad as if not worse than the tories.
 

Donny Dave

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Labour are as bad as if not worse than the tories.

As a Conservative supporter and voter, I disagree. What has been bad for the country was Theresa May splitting the party and allowing the empowerment of the hard right faction led by the likes of Boris Johnson.

At times over the last 6 or 7 years, I've despaired at the direction he has dragged both the party and country, and for the first time was in a real quandary as to who to vote for in the last election. In the end, I decided not to vote.

With being removed from government, it allows the Conservatives to reset and move back towards a center-right position in the next few years, but in the mean time, have to accept a Labour government and their policies and ideas, some of which I don't agree with.
 

nw1

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As a Conservative supporter and voter, I disagree. What has been bad for the country was Theresa May splitting the party and allowing the empowerment of the hard right faction led by the likes of Boris Johnson.

At times over the last 6 or 7 years, I've despaired at the direction he has dragged both the party and country, and for the first time was in a real quandary as to who to vote for in the last election. In the end, I decided not to vote.

With being removed from government, it allows the Conservatives to reset and move back towards a center-right position in the next few years, but in the mean time, have to accept a Labour government and their policies and ideas, some of which I don't agree with.
As a non-Conservative I will be very relieved if they do move back towards the centre, as it will at least mean a Conservative return to power will not be the horror show of the last few years.

I'm not sure it'll happen under the likes of Badenoch or Jenrick (who appear to be the front-runners), though. Perhaps they'll need a further change of leader to have any realistic prospect of becoming more moderate again.
 

ScotGG

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In terms of the Express and Mail, it's not the 90s anymore. Papers are sold to barely anyone. Far more choices of info now.

It's not just the dodgy looking donations from a Lord who then managed to get a number 10 pass but other issues. WFA had wide publicity but many others are irritating sections of the population eg Palestine, dodgy landlords in their ranks, repeating austerity etc. Labour never got in with mich enthusiasm except the public were sick of the Tories. To then have some very Tory like behaviour goes down like a bucket of cold sick.
 
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nw1

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In terms of the Express and Mail, it's not the 90s anymore. Papers are sold to barely anyone. Far more choices of info now.

It's not just the dodgy looking donations from a Lord who then managed to get a number 10 pass but other issues. WFA had wide publicity but many others are irritating sections of the population eg Palestine, dodgy landlords in their ranks, repeating austerity etc. Labour never got in with mich enthusiasm except the public were sock of the Tories. To then have some very Tory like behaviour goes down like a bucket of cold sick.

But what's the alternative? The Tories again? Given the likely leadership of Badenoch or Jenrick, the answer from many will be "no thanks", I suspect.

And let's not even contemplate Reform UK. Them being in government would be a true and unequivocal horror show.
 
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takno

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Well how about the lunatic net zero policy where they are going to destroy farms and help to cut food production? It will cost a gigantic amount to the tax payer yet expect us to swallow the lies that bills will come down? What happens when there is no sun or wind? The laws of physics prevent batteries storing power with degradation. Roll on May for the bye elections. Labour are as bad as if not worse than the tories.
The net zero policy is not lunatic, and of course destroying farms and helping to cut food production are not parts of it. I can only assume that that's a reaction to the fairly moderate increase in solar provision. The size of that is and always will be pretty tiny as a proportion of agricultural land. We already have at least that much land lying fallow or underutilised because the flood protections aren't in place to keep it viable.

Furthermore, solar technology has come in wildly in the last few years to the point where modern tech can produce significant multiples of the amount of power which could be produced even 5 years from the same amount of land, and can be done using much cheaper solar panels to boot. The current trend is even towards mounting the panels vertically, which leaves huge amounts of space in-between for grazing and growing various crops. This not only cuts land-take, but also means that the energy can be produced economically at normal tariffs rather than needing some of the subsidies which have been required in the past.

Obviously solar doesn't provide baseload generation, and we can't depend on it as our only source of power. We need backup power, which is why nobody is actively cancelling nuclear projects in spite of the eye-watering costs, and we continue to build gas-fired power stations. It does mean though that we don't need to run gas power stations for a large proportion of the day, and accordingly don't need to buy so much expensive gas from difficult-to-deal-with regimes.

The laws of physics aren't terribly interested in battery degradation tbh, but while battery technology has got a lot better in the last 20 years, progress is definitely slower than it is in solar generation. Batteries in cars and homes do provide a valuable contribution to having a sustainable energy supply in the coming years, but nobody is particularly planning on using them in gigantic power factories as was perhaps envisioned in the past - nuclear, gas and ever-improving energy efficiency should see to that.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the haste with which the Tories eliminated coal in UK supply - I think we'd have been much safer if we'd continued to have it as part of the mix for longer. That isn't on the table anymore though - the plants have gone, the coal supply has gone, and the knowledge has gone to the point where it would probably be nearly as expensive to build new coal as new nuclear.

Basically, nobody has actually come up with an energy policy which provides more security or lower cost than net-zero. The alternative is mostly just to sit on our hands and hope for the grid to get fed by some kind of divine lightning, so until you actually have a better idea there's really no value in trying to prevent net-zero from happening
 

jon0844

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Well how about the lunatic net zero policy where they are going to destroy farms and help to cut food production? It will cost a gigantic amount to the tax payer yet expect us to swallow the lies that bills will come down? What happens when there is no sun or wind? The laws of physics prevent batteries storing power with degradation. Roll on May for the bye elections. Labour are as bad as if not worse than the tories.

Have you got shares in an oil company? That's a total load of nonsense. Wind and solar, along with batteries, means that on good days we see negatively priced electricity. There are many more wind farms and solar farms coming online, and now the NIMBYs have failed in getting new distribution cables put underground, we can build the pylons to move that power around instead of having to turn some wind turbines off.

On a good day, I've been paid 8p per kWh because the UK is almost exclusively green energy. We can supplement this with nuclear, but we MUST get rid of our dependence on gas. At least we're no longer using coal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

He's doing pretty badly considering all he had to do was make sure his party, certainly himself and his Cabinet, held themselves to the standards of integrity, fairness and competence they regularly and vehemently accused the Tories of failing to meet while they were in opposition.

It's starting to look like a pattern. A mistake, such as hiring Sue Gray, is merely doubled down on, leading to perfectly avoidable political damage. Disturbingly, I've already heard Labour MPs suggesting their failings look worse worse than they are, due to a media conspiracy. It flies in the face of the assumption he had a tight grip on the party, and suggests all that happened is the less competent members were merely keeping a lid on their base instincts, until they won.

He needs to be acutely aware of the fact Labour didn't win, the Tories lost. I don't think he is.

Labour is suffering not just from the attacks from the Tories and Reform, but also a large number of Labour members who are upset that it isn't Jeremy Corbyn in power. As such, Labour is being hit from both the (far) left and the right. And this will continue to happen as parties these days seem to be very good at destroying themselves from within.
 

Harpers Tate

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I say: Destroy farms to make way for solar power. Yes, we definitely need that. And destroy farms to make way for huge housing developments. Yes, we need that. But - destroy half as many farms by mandating that absolutely evey new home built has as much of a solar roof as its square footage will allow, along with battery storage and grid export equipment. And less farms yet by hugely incentivising brown site redevelopment and disincentivising green belt development.
 

takno

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In terms of the Express and Mail, it's not the 90s anymore. Papers are sold to barely anyone. Far more choices of info now.

It's not just the dodgy looking donations from a Lord who then managed to get a number 10 pass but other issues. WFA had wide publicity but many others are irritating sections of the population eg Palestine, dodgy landlords in their ranks, repeating austerity etc. Labour never got in with mich enthusiasm except the public were sick of the Tories. To then have some very Tory like behaviour goes down like a bucket of cold sick.
There was only one dodgy landlord issue that I heard about, and that's starting to look more like a letting agency taking the MP landlord for a ride more than the MP himself being a slum landlord. He also has a history of forcing landlords to meet more regulations in local government, so it's hardly like he's standing in the way of progress. The laws to prevent this kind of thing are entirely on course and likely to get enacted in the next year.

As far as austerity goes, the messaging around the budget sounds pretty balanced. Fundamentally you either believe that there's a need to cut billions of promised-but-unfunded spending off the books or you don't. If you do then everything so far has been about addressing that, and getting the city to believe them on that. If you don't then there probably isn't anything Labour could have done in the last 2 months to make you feel any better anyway.

If in a year we aren't looking at investing to grow the economy and improve lives then we can talk.
 

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