What should be considered 'Inter-City' under GBR?

[Transilien]

In Switzerland it refers to the top category of train, almost everywhere else it refers to the next category down.

Also in Belgium and the Netherlands they are the top category. They used to be the top category in most countries

 

[eldomtom2]

I think "intercity rail" is a concept that is well-known worldwide and is separate from the former BR InterCity sector. The division between intercity rail and regional/commuter rail, even if not explicitly called that, can be seen everywhere from the US to France to India.
Using the fairly simple and commonly used definition of "intercity rail" as "services focused on connecting major urban areas across longer distances", the operators of intercity rail in the UK are fairly easy to identify - these are the ones I'd call "intercity":

• Avanti West Coast
• Caledonian Sleeper
• Chiltern Railways (London-Birmingham services)
• CrossCountry
• East Midlands Railway (EMR Intercity services)
• Eurostar
• Grand Central
• Greater Anglia (London-Norwich services)
• GWR (former Great Western franchise services)
• Hull Trains
• LNER
• Lumo
• ScotRail (Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness services)
• TransPennine Express

 

[irish_rail]

...which don't meet my (and many others', I suspect) definition of "InterCity". In reality it's Great Western metro.

Paddington to Penzance is most definitely Intercity. It may not provide intercity levels of comfort, but it is up there with the Anglo Scottish stuff. The key being that most passengers on board are travelling for at least 3 hours or more.

 

[irish_rail]

Nothing.

The Inter City brand is dead (and has been for 25 years) and GBR shouldn't be resurrecting legacy things "just cos that's what BR did".

There will need to be some differentiation between long distance express, long distance stopper and commuter services, but that shouldn't mean using long dead brands which mean nothing to non enthusiasts.

Not my experience. Plenty of "normal" passengers seem to refer to "the intercity " when referring to the fast trains on GWR to differentiate what they see as the "stoppers". Intercity means something to almost anybody. It means a fast limited stop train in the public consciousness. It could once again be a brand to be proud of.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Also in Belgium and the Netherlands they are the top category. They used to be the top category in most countries

And in these countries run without any catering on IC services.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I would argue that something is Intercity if it covers long distances at higher speeds with limited stops. The precise definition of each of those terms is however harder. To my mind Bedford/Cambridge to Brighton is a contender for the “Intercity” title because it fulfils at least some of these criteria.

It is also the case that many services will never fit neatly into one ideal category. Take the Waterloo to Weymouth expresses. These are clearly Intercity until they leave Bournemouth after which they become local trains. The same with King’s Cross to Inverness or Paddington to Penzance. Then there are stations like Lockerbie which are tiny places in the middle of nowhere but which can only be served by an Intercity service.

With this is mind, is the term “Intercity” really the best one? To use some railway-related words, wouldn’t “Voyager” or “Sprinter” or even “Avanti” be a better name. Or indeed “National Express”, were that not already taken?

 

[A S Leib]

Also what should be the requirements for a service to be labeled this way?

I think that if Intercity's revived as a national brand at all (which wouldn't be the worst option; it's easy enough to understand) it might be worth splitting it into two. One could cover services which average at least 70 mph for at least two hours of their journey (so e.g. GWR's Paddington — Penzance and Grand Central's Bradford services wouldn't be counted as non-IC due to slow bits at the edge), or for the entire journey for routes shorter than two hours (Avanti Birmingham terminators, King's Cross – Lincoln), as well as having 2+1 First Class seating and some form of catering. The other type could cover predominantly or entirely limited-stop services which average 50+ mph, regardless of whether they have First Class and catering or not, so including e.g. HS1 services, Manchester – Bournemouth and Liverpool – Hull.

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With this is mind, is the term “Intercity” really the best one?

It doesn't need an explanation to somebody who hasn't heard of it before, even if they don't know the exact categorisation (although NS uses Sprinter, for example, without problems). Apart from a few outside cases like Paddington – Hereford (no settlement served with over ~150,000 people west of Reading), if counted as IC, most services, and passenger journeys, are between the cities / city-sized towns on IC routes, so I don't think it's an issue beyond providing oddities at Dunbar, Kemble, Pewsey etc.

 

[JKF]

Portugal has four tiers,

Alfa (basically Pendolinos, fast limited stops between principal cities only on dedicated faster tilting trains, with a price premium - so brand defined by stock, of which they only have nine and a half units)
Inter City - all other fast loco-hauled services between cities
Inter-Regional - long-distance trains but not particularly fast, but still some stops missed, maybe like UK regional rail services)
Regional - all stops, usually within one district

Both the last two categories still include some trains that do longish distances. You can’t use some tickets or rovers on the faster services, which have to be pre-booked with reservations.

I suspect this is a common arrangement in most countries.

if the UK went with this sort of set-up, you’d have the IEP and maybe Pendolino services as one tier, Inter city might pick up some cross country and east anglian services, Grand central, that sort of thing.

Inter City is still a strong brand with anyone over 50 who can remember the step change in quality and speed with the introduction of the Inter City 125 trains, and I think you’d want something with the same sort of level of stock quality to meet people’s expectation. This might exclude 2+3 seating, three sets of doors, no catering and that sort of thing. Use it to imply stock of a certain standard with fewer stops. Passengers do care about that sort of thing, it’s easier to relax and enjoy the journey and that counts for something!

 

[Mgameing123]

Yes, but Inter-City services as a concept are increasingly rare in the UK.
Higher operational speeds (thus shorter journeys), higher performance units and more station stops are diluting the traidtional "inter city" concept.

I don't think there are many services that could truly be so characterised left today.

ECML, WCML, GWML/SWML, MML, HS2

 

[Magdalia]

Inter City is still a strong brand with anyone over 50 who can remember the step change in quality and speed with the introduction of the Inter City 125 trains, and I think you’d want something with the same sort of level of stock quality to meet people’s expectation.

Inter City is a brand and brands are partly about product differentiation. That means the services within the brand have consistency, in terms of trains, timetables and staffing. For Inter City to be a premium brand that consistency has to be at a higher level than other services, and to exclude services that don't meet premium criteria for trains, timetables and staffing.

The Inter City brand was already being eroded before privatisation when sectorisation changed what was included to be led by finance considerations not marketing considerations.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Nothing.

The Inter City brand is dead (and has been for 25 years) and GBR shouldn't be resurrecting legacy things "just cos that's what BR did".

There will need to be some differentiation between long distance express, long distance stopper and commuter services, but that shouldn't mean using long dead brands which mean nothing to non enthusiasts.

Dead for you maybe, I still think it’s a wonderful brand. And pretty timeless. Far more taste and class than many privatisation brands. And as the other person said, intercity is alive and well in other countries. However, one thing I would like to see is avoiding “intercity” becoming the bargain basement brand for non high-speed services as is the case on the continent. In one of the HS2 threads, I suggested that HS2 trains and classic former-Avanti services are both Intercity branded trains, but perhaps with different sub brands to differentiate the two.

So for instance, high speed trains could be called “Intercity Victoria” whilst conventional intercity trains could be called “Intercity Elizabeathan” or something

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

I suppose that trains connecting cities, such as Manchester to Salford, would be one possibility.

Manchester and Salford shouldn’t even be separate cities

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

Was the finishing position of British Rail a panacea?

Arguably the optimism of the first few years of privatisation and the service enhancements it brought were perhaps better.

I’d struggle to agree it wasn’t for Network SouthEast, but it certainly wasn’t for Regional Railways.

I’d personally like a more atomised branding system where individual routes are given names and liveries. Especially for longer distance regional services. So for instance, Liverpool to Norwich could be called “The East Anglian” or something. The Liverpool to Birmingham and London to Crewe trains could be grouped under “Mercian Regional”, Cardiff to Portsmouth could be “West Country Limited” etc.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that there should be a few standard criteria to denote the IC network:

* Should be long distance.
* At least part of the journey should be high speed express.
* Should have on board buffet or shop catering.
* Should link at least two different cities.

I guess compared to BR days, Gatwick Express would be out. If given long enough trains and catering, some trans pennine services such as Liverpool - Newcastle should probably be included. Also some of the open access operated services such as Hull trains might be classified as such.

For those who decry looking backwards, I think having a set of quality standards to denote long distance express is a good thing. Whether we have something like the excellent BR branding, or whether we paint all the trains dirty grey and call it "Great Inter City" is immeterial.

 

[Matt P]

The Inter City brand was already being eroded before privatisation when sectorisation changed what was included to be led by finance considerations not marketing considerations.

I think this is an important point.

I personally think that it would be possible to group some services into an Intercity brand, with Avanti WCML, LNER and possibly XC to start with, together with certain MML and GWML services. Alhough I appreciate services on both of those routes may be more difficult to identify given that the TOCs on both have run a mix of longer distance, regional and local services for a long time and therefore longer distance services may have evolved as a result (I've not studied timetables enough to know this for certain).

However, what is certain is whatever is decided upon today will evolve over time just as it did in BR days. Certain routes were jettisoned by Intercity in order to become profitable, some altogether and some offloaded to NSE and Regional Railways. RR branded certain longer distance/faster 158 operated routes as Alphaline. The distinction between some of these and Intercity routes was arguably a little blurred around the edges, particularly as some were probably considered or were actually Intercity routes at one time or another.

Looking abroad, we can a similar evolution of services has taken place. DB Fernverkehr operates two categories of train ICE and IC. The distinction generally being the speed and number of stops, with ICE also more likely to operate on HSL routes. Regional services are also split into Regional and Regional Express. Again speed and number of stops being the distinguishing factor. I understand in some states Interregio-Express is another category.

If we are to define what is Intercity I think there is a need to define other service groups as well, with the German model not being a bad place to start. On day 1 it may well be that distinctions between certain services are not so clear. But this could clearly evolve over time. In my opinion there'd be an advantage to having, for branding purposes, distinct service groups that service clearly defined functions. This would aid long term planning of service provision, rolling stock procurement, marketing, fare structures and also the roles and responsibilities of Intergrated Transport Authorities/Combined Authorities in planning and procuring services.


.

 

[Transilien]

Should London-Weymouth/Exeter be included? It was under Network Southeast during BR but I don't think they suit that classification considering they both go outside the southeast and cover distances over 100 miles.

 

[BayPaul]

Should London-Weymouth/Exeter be included? It was under Network Southeast during BR but I don't think they suit that classification considering they both go outside the southeast and cover distances over 100 miles.

I'd say yes. In SWT livery terms I'd say
- White = Intercity
- Blue = Network Southeast
- Red = Overground

 

[A0]

Should London-Weymouth/Exeter be included? It was under Network Southeast during BR but I don't think they suit that classification considering they both go outside the southeast and cover distances over 100 miles.

Since its now operated by 'South Western Railway' and Exeter's in the south-west, why change it?

 

[A0]

Inter City is still a strong brand with anyone over 50 who can remember the step change in quality and speed with the introduction of the Inter City 125 trains,

Over 60 more like. The IC 125s were being introduced nearly 50 years ago. To have meaningfully remembered what things were like before, you'd need to have been at least 10 years old.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think that there should be a few standard criteria to denote the IC network:

* Should be long distance.
* At least part of the journey should be high speed express.
* Should have on board buffet or shop catering.
* Should link at least two different cities.

I guess compared to BR days, Gatwick Express would be out. If given long enough trains and catering, some trans pennine services such as Liverpool - Newcastle should probably be included. Also some of the open access operated services such as Hull trains might be classified as such.

For those who decry looking backwards, I think having a set of quality standards to denote long distance express is a good thing. Whether we have something like the excellent BR branding, or whether we paint all the trains dirty grey and call it "Great Inter City" is immeterial.

I think this is an important point.

I personally think that it would be possible to group some services into an Intercity brand, with Avanti WCML, LNER and possibly XC to start with, together with certain MML and GWML services. Alhough I appreciate services on both of those routes may be more difficult to identify given that the TOCs on both have run a mix of longer distance, regional and local services for a long time and therefore longer distance services may have evolved as a result (I've not studied timetables enough to know this for certain).

However, what is certain is whatever is decided upon today will evolve over time just as it did in BR days. Certain routes were jettisoned by Intercity in order to become profitable, some altogether and some offloaded to NSE and Regional Railways. RR branded certain longer distance/faster 158 operated routes as Alphaline. The distinction between some of these and Intercity routes was arguably a little blurred around the edges, particularly as some were probably considered or were actually Intercity routes at one time or another.

Looking abroad, we can a similar evolution of services has taken place. DB Fernverkehr operates two categories of train ICE and IC. The distinction generally being the speed and number of stops, with ICE also more likely to operate on HSL routes. Regional services are also split into Regional and Regional Express. Again speed and number of stops being the distinguishing factor. I understand in some states Interregio-Express is another category.

If we are to define what is Intercity I think there is a need to define other service groups as well, with the German model not being a bad place to start. On day 1 it may well be that distinctions between certain services are not so clear. But this could clearly evolve over time. In my opinion there'd be an advantage to having, for branding purposes, distinct service groups that service clearly defined functions. This would aid long term planning of service provision, rolling stock procurement, marketing, fare structures and also the roles and responsibilities of Intergrated Transport Authorities/Combined Authorities in planning and procuring services.


.

Yeah sure. I mean, MML’s old class 170 services couldn’t really be Intercity. Nor could a theoretical Liverpool Street to Norwich stopping service. So yes, either have Intercity sub brands, or you could do the American model and have say “West Coast Express” (bad Microsoft Train Simulator Memories returning) and “West Coast Regional”

 

[Uncle Buck]

Should London-Weymouth/Exeter be included? It was under Network Southeast during BR but I don't think they suit that classification considering they both go outside the southeast and cover distances over 100 miles.

The London-Weymouth acts as a fast, limited-stop train between London and Bournemouth, so yes I would have it as Intercity. West of Bournemouth it essentially acts as a local rural train, but it makes operational sense to simply extend the express. Anomalous? Yes but at the end of the day it works and the railway can’t sacrifice utility to fitting in with its brands.

The Waterloo to Exeter on the other hand is in no sense Intercity. It is not the fastest route between London and Exeter; it has many small stops; it does not continue west of Exeter to serve the city of Plymouth or the Torbay urban area.

 

[A S Leib]

The London-Weymouth acts as a fast, limited-stop train between London and Bournemouth, so yes I would have it as Intercity. West of Bournemouth it essentially acts as a local rural train, but it makes operational sense to simply extend the express. Anomalous? Yes but at the end of the day it works and the railway can’t sacrifice utility to fitting in with its brands.

The Waterloo to Exeter on the other hand is in no sense Intercity. It is not the fastest route between London and Exeter; it has many small stops; it does not continue west of Exeter to serve the city of Plymouth or the Torbay urban area.

Even east of Salisbury, I think it only averages ~40 mph; faster than motorway speed limit seems like a good cutoff point if defining things by that metric, and a point which Waterloo – Exeter services aren't close to.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think that there should be a few standard criteria to denote the IC network:

* Should be long distance.
* At least part of the journey should be high speed express.
* Should have on board buffet or shop catering.
* Should link at least two different cities.

First class accommodation (2+1 seating), standard as 2+2. Catering facilities better than a trolley.

What’s the fascination with catering needing to be static buffets compared to at seat service?

Aside from a handful of European Countries where no catering is provided on IC services (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Croatia) in several European countries (France, Germany, and Austria) it’s at seat service and then in others such as Italy and Denmark it’s vending machines only on IC services.

Full restaurant buffet services on ICs across Europe is far more limited, Switzerland and Spain being notable exceptions.

 

[Manutd1999]

I think it's makes most sense for GBR to pool resources wherever possible. Crew can then operate services according to what makes sense for each depot.

"InterCity" and the like would have value as a branding tool but not as a standalone franchise/sector.

I would have ~4 broad service types:
- Intercity
- Inter-Regional (maybe this needs a better name...)
- Regional (split into various sub-brands in different regions - eg, Northern, NSE etc.)
- Devolved local brands such as TfL, Merseyrail etc

Intercity would be used denote the fastest, limited stop, services between major cities.

It wouldn't have to be used for all services on a given route. For example, the Edinburgh-London fast (if it ever happens..) and Glasgow-London would be Intercity, but the LNER semi-fast and Avanti via Birmingham services would be "Inter-Regional".

Each brand could have different service levels, flexibility, requirements for reservations etc.

There would be some discrepancies, notably with Scotrail/TfW, but there will be with any system so that's something we have to live with.

 

[A S Leib]

Aside from a handful of European Countries where no catering is provided on IC services (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Croatia)

I think the longest domestic trains in Benelux are Maastricht to Enkhuizen (~4 hours), Groningen to Rotterdam and Oostende to Eupen (~3 hours); planning a meal around those is easier than around an Edinburgh to Bristol or London to Penzance service, if you wanted something warm to eat (and there wasn't any food available onboard).

 

[HSTEd]

Currently, how many routes actually have a buffet service?
Do we have any economics figures on them?

 

[cle]

The London-Weymouth acts as a fast, limited-stop train between London and Bournemouth, so yes I would have it as Intercity. West of Bournemouth it essentially acts as a local rural train, but it makes operational sense to simply extend the express. Anomalous? Yes but at the end of the day it works and the railway can’t sacrifice utility to fitting in with its brands.

This also describes the Penzance service.

My view is that the MML shouldn’t be one - especially given the need to use St Pancras more and better - given the longest standard journey is two hours (Sheffield).

Eventually a javelin type emu should ply both routes with faster turnarounds and less fuss.

 

[philosopher]

Currently, how many routes actually have a buffet service?
Do we have any economics figures on them?

I think it is all Avanti and LNER services, Greater Anglia London to Norwich services and the sleepers.

What’s the fascination with catering needing to be static buffets compared to at seat service?

Aside from a handful of European Countries where no catering is provided on IC services (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Croatia) in several European countries (France, Germany, and Austria) it’s at seat service and then in others such as Italy and Denmark it’s vending machines only on IC services.

Full restaurant buffet services on ICs across Europe is far more limited, Switzerland and Spain being notable exceptions.

Station catering is a lot better than 30 years ago so there is much less of a need for catering on trains these days. That said, I do think some form of catering should be provided, even if it just a couple of vending machines on longer distance services. Forgetting or not having time to buy food or water beforehand on a five hour journey could lead to quite an uncomfortable journey for some people, so a vending machine to buy water and basic snacks such as nuts should at a minimum be provided.

 

[miklcct]

I would have ~4 broad service types:
- Intercity
- Inter-Regional (maybe this needs a better name...)
- Regional (split into various sub-brands in different regions - eg, Northern, NSE etc.)
- Devolved local brands such as TfL, Merseyrail etc

My suggestion of brand names will be:

- Intercity (abbreviated IC) (Intercity Express for HS2 services)
- Inter-regional (abbreviated IR)
- Regional (abbreviated R): Network South East or similarly Network ... ScotRail for Scottish services and and TfW Rail for Welsh services
- Suburban (abbreviated S): London Overground, Merseyrail, etc.

The abbreviations should be used as part of the train number, with the first 2 digits being the route code.

 

[FGWHST43009]

My suggestion of brand names will be:

- Intercity (abbreviated IC) (Intercity Express for HS2 services)
- Inter-regional (abbreviated IR)
- Regional (abbreviated R): Network South East or similarly Network ... ScotRail for Scottish services and and TfW Rail for Welsh services
- Suburban (abbreviated S): London Overground, Merseyrail, etc.

The abbreviations should be used as part of the train number, with the first 2 digits being the route code.

Maybe until HS2 services come in then maybe the currrent faster services could be branded as Intercity-Express while the services with more stops could be normal Intercity? For example, a fast London-Newcastle-Edinburgh could be Intercity-Express while a semifast could just be intercity?

 

[A S Leib]

Maybe until HS2 services come in then maybe the currrent faster services could be branded as Intercity-Express while the services with more stops could be normal Intercity? For example, a fast London-Newcastle-Edinburgh could be Intercity-Express while a semifast could just be intercity?

So Lumo (only two or three intermediate stops when every LNER service bar the Flying Scotman stops at York, Darlington and Newcastle at a minimum) gets counted as an ICE despite not having any First Class? Admittedly you're going for InterCity Express rather than Premium, but even so it seems a bit odd.

 

[yorksrob]

What’s the fascination with catering needing to be static buffets compared to at seat service?

Aside from a handful of European Countries where no catering is provided on IC services (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Croatia) in several European countries (France, Germany, and Austria) it’s at seat service and then in others such as Italy and Denmark it’s vending machines only on IC services.

Full restaurant buffet services on ICs across Europe is far more limited, Switzerland and Spain being notable exceptions.

I think you're more at the mercy of whether and where someone gets on with a trolley. Also the selection can be quite limited. With the buffet counter you can get hot snacks.