Green Party policy regarding HS2

[mike57]

Do they explain how it will be funded in detail, The bit that is being built has already pretty well broken the bank. How will they maintain control of costs.

HS2 as originally evisaged was a good idea, but once the costs started to spiral out of control it became a millstone. Even the Euston bit seems to less than a certainty

It strikes me that the Greens are just going for the publicity

 

[Sealink]

Wasn't it HS2 (or maybe the press) who marketed HS2 as "faster trains to Birmingham and Manchester", maybe because that's "sexier" than taking freight off the roads - the real benefit, as well as freeing up space on the WCML.
Amazing how the journey time thing "stuck" but the freight benefits seemed to be ignored.

 

[och aye]

Wasn't it HS2 (or maybe the press) who marketed HS2 as "faster trains to Birmingham and Manchester", maybe because that's "sexier" than taking freight off the roads - the real benefit, as well as freeing up space on the WCML.
Amazing how the journey time thing "stuck" but the freight benefits seemed to be ignored.

This is something I was always critical of naming the project as HS2 instead of something mundane like: West Coast Mainline Capacity Upgrade it obviously wouldn't have stopped those opposed to it from objecting to the project, or indeed have prevented the Eastern leg and Phase 2A from being cancelled, but at least the Government would have been in a slightly better position explaining to the public as to what the project was supposed to be mainly achieving.

No doubt some marketing agencies made a lot of money by convincing the Government of the time to go with HS2, as it probably sounded "cooler"

 

[greyman42]

It is, of course, very easy to support something that is never going to happen.

And even easier to support something that they would never have to pay for.

 

[Couru]

This is something I was always critical of naming the project as HS2 instead of something mundane like: West Coast Mainline Capacity Upgrade it obviously wouldn't have stopped those opposed to it from objecting to the project, or indeed have prevented the Eastern leg and Phase 2A from being cancelled, but at least the Government would have been in slightly better position explaining to the public as to what the project was supposed to be mainly achieving.

No doubt some marketing agencies made a lot of money by convincing the Government of the time to go with HS2, as it probably sound "cooler"

Agree. One of the issues I heard many non-enthusiasts raise was that it cost a hell of a lot for "only saving 20 minutes". Too much emphasis was put on the speed of it and not enough on how much capacity it would open up for freight.

Edit: I now realise I am rehashing the quote from Sealink. Would help if I could read before repeating someone else like a parrot!

 

[embers25]

Would you like to enumerate the Conservative Party's various positions on HS2 over the years?

100% agree Tories are no better but , as greens, HS2 should be an automatic but it wasn't.

 

[hwl]

No doubt some marketing agencies made a lot of money by convincing the Government of the time to go with HS2, as it probably sounded "cooler"

The term was actual coined by a forum member as shorthand for a potential new WCML relief line due to the difficulties encountered doing the WCML route upgrade for Virgin etc. No marketing cost involved! (this was while HS1 was being built)

 

[MerlinRail 804]

This is something I was always critical of naming the project as HS2 instead of something mundane like: West Coast Mainline Capacity Upgrade it obviously wouldn't have stopped those opposed to it from objecting to the project, or indeed have prevented the Eastern leg and Phase 2A from being cancelled, but at least the Government would have been in a slightly better position explaining to the public as to what the project was supposed to be mainly achieving.

No doubt some marketing agencies made a lot of money by convincing the Government of the time to go with HS2, as it probably sounded "cooler"

Even that name would have naysayers saying something like "Upgrade existing lines for more capacity then" because they don't realize trains are heavy and can't stop and so can't runt 2mm apart

 

[al78]

And even easier to support something that they would never have to pay for.

They can't win either way. If they opposed it they would incite criticism on this forum. When they do support it people on this forum look for excuses to bash them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

This is a difficult one for the Greens, because lots of them (at activist level) are sceptical about any form of commercialised economic activity, and would rather people stayed at home and subsisted on produce they’ve grown.

Ah yes, the standard take the extremists or worst examples of a group that doesn't align with your identity and project them onto the entire group. I've never seen anyone do that before. *sigh*

 

[BlueLeanie]

If the Greens are now pro-HS2, is it possible that their campaign against the upgrade of Bedford station, to better accommodate the increased traffic of East-West, will cease?

The mainstream parties are very mindful of the consequences in Scotland of the Green's partnership with the SNP. Too much power, too little capability.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Greens are endorsing building HS2 in full, at the Manchester Conference. There's been a lot of lobbying and discussion over time on this matter and it's good to see.

What was the point of lobbying the Green Party over HS2? The Scouts have as much influence in UK politics as the Greens. Why didn't they lobby someone who matters and could have some influence if they want HS2 built?

 

[Couru]

If the Greens are now pro-HS2, is it possible that their campaign against the upgrade of Bedford station, to better accommodate the increased traffic of East-West, will cease?

The mainstream parties are very mindful of the consequences in Scotland of the Green's partnership with the SNP. Too much power, too little capability.

It won't. After the motion passed, the leadership were very quick to say that they don't whip MPs or councillors - aka, their national platform means nothing since everyone's free to vote on conscience. That's why the party is a bit of a joke sometimes - it can't decide whether it wants to be a progressive pro-development lefty party (Bristol+Brighton, e.g. Austrialian Greens) or a NIMBY centre-right farmer's party (Waveney+Hertfordshire, e.g. Netherlands' BBB).

What was the point of lobbying the Green Party over HS2? The Scouts have as much influence in UK politics as the Greens. Why didn't they lobby someone who matters and could have some influence if they want HS2 built?

Some of the biggest issues HS2 has run into, outside of funding, is localist Green/Tory/independent NIMBY councillors protesting construction and withholding planning permission, requiring compulsory purchase. Red tape is one hell of a thing.

 

[Mikey C]

It won't. After the motion passed, the leadership were very quick to say that they don't whip MPs or councillors - aka, their national platform means nothing since everyone's free to vote on conscience. That's why the party is a bit of a joke sometimes - it can't decide whether it wants to be a progressive pro-development lefty party (Bristol+Brighton, e.g. Austrialian Greens) or a NIMBY centre-right farmer's party (Waveney+Hertfordshire, e.g. Netherlands' BBB).


Some of the biggest issues HS2 has run into, outside of funding, is localist Green/Tory/independent NIMBY councillors protesting construction and withholding planning permission, requiring compulsory purchase. Red tape is one hell of a thing.

The Lib Dems won the 2021 Amersham and Chesham by election on Nimby house building concerns, plus HS2. As the BBC report at the time said

We may be seeing the return of classic Lib Dem "pavement politics" - relentlessly campaigning on local issues such as HS2, which the party supports nationally, but opposed locally.

Chesham and Amersham: Lib Dems overturn big Tory majority in by-election upset

Leader Ed Davey says his party is now the main threat to Tory "blue wall" constituencies across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[imagination]

The Lib Dems won the 2021 Amersham and Chesham by election on Nimby house building concerns, plus HS2. As the BBC report at the time said

Chesham and Amersham: Lib Dems overturn big Tory majority in by-election upset

Leader Ed Davey says his party is now the main threat to Tory "blue wall" constituencies across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

And her Conservative predecessor also strongly opposed HS2 when her party nationally supported it.

 

[Taplowgreen]

Has anything been heard on the Labour position on HS2?

Yes, Starmer was quite unequivocal..........https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67924577

As for the Greens, well 5 MPs isn't going to make a lot of difference.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Some of the biggest issues HS2 has run into, outside of funding, is localist Green/Tory/independent NIMBY councillors protesting construction and withholding planning permission, requiring compulsory purchase. Red tape is one hell of a thing.

People not meekly offering up their houses for demolition and HS2 Ltd having to use compulsory purchase powers was not one of the biggest issues the project faced.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Britain tried that once before, then the Industrial Revolution happened.

This comment wins the internet for today, the rest of you can go home now…

 

[camflyer]

Yes, Starmer was quite unequivocal..........https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67924577

As for the Greens, well 5 MPs isn't going to make a lot of difference.

That "unequivocal" comment was 8 months ago. When it comes to Labour policy anything could have changed in that time

There have been some hints that while a full resurrection of HS2 North is very unlikely there is an increasing understand that something will have to be done between Birmingham and Manchester even if it's under a new, less-toxic, brand.

 

[Tezza1978]

That "unequivocal" comment was 8 months ago. When it comes to Labour policy anything could have changed in that time

There have been some hints that while a full resurrection of HS2 North is very unlikely there is an increasing understand that something will have to be done between Birmingham and Manchester even if it's under a new, less-toxic, brand.

Yep. He said he couldn't commit it to it - which is far from "unequivocal". And that the land would be sold off - which hasn't actually happened of course.

Nothing stopping Labour from resurrecting it/rebranding it.

 

[E27007]

Do they explain how it will be funded in detail, The bit that is being built has already pretty well broken the bank. How will they maintain control of costs.

HS2 as originally evisaged was a good idea, but once the costs started to spiral out of control it became a millstone. Even the Euston bit seems to less than a certainty

It strikes me that the Greens are just going for the publicity

We need to read the small print and not only the headline, the HS2 envisioned by the Green party may be very very different to the broken dream of the cancelled HS2.

 

[Krokodil]

I could never understand the previous position

I think that it stems from the party's former incarnation as the "Ecology Party". There are still quite a lot of members who are of the "save the bunnies" persuasion who would prefer that every existing tree is saved regardless of the greater good.

Would you like to enumerate the Conservative Party's various positions on HS2 over the years?

Let's see:
I can't remember their views when it was first announced or what they said at the 2010 election. Afterwards though:
- "We need it but the Heathrow and HS1 links are extravagances"
- "We need it and we should connect Liverpool to Leeds too"
- "Let's include a link to Belfast"
- "Maybe we don't really care about the NE, so no Leeds"
- "My helicopter gets me to Manchester quickly enough, why do we need trains anyway?"

 

[eldomtom2]

There have been some hints that while a full resurrection of HS2 North is very unlikely there is an increasing understand that something will have to be done between Birmingham and Manchester even if it's under a new, less-toxic, brand.

What were those hints?

 

[AlterEgo]

What was the point of lobbying the Green Party over HS2? The Scouts have as much influence in UK politics as the Greens. Why didn't they lobby someone who matters and could have some influence if they want HS2 built?

That’s not strictly true. The Greens have moved the Overton window quite a bit on a lot of progressive issues, I will give them that.

 

[317 forever]

Where have we heard those numbers before?

52% of the original HS2 is still being built but the other 48% proposed has now been cancelled