Longevity of traction

[norbitonflyer]

Following a comment on the class 458/4 thread, suggesting the wihdrawal of the ex-Class 460 vehicles at 25 years old is a bit premature, I thought it would be of interest to look at longevity of other classes, so here goes.
(TOPS classes only, departmental use excluded, from introduction of first member to withdrawal/export/reclassification after rebuilding/reforming of the last. Those not extinct are in bold)
Corrections welcome as always

LOCOMOTIVES
08 1952 - now - 74 years
20 1957 - now - 67 years
09 1959 - now - 65 years
37 1960 - now - 64 years
73 1962 - now - 62 years
47 1963 - now - 61 years
31 1965 - now - 59 years (67 if you include their previous existence as class 30)
86 1965 - 2021 - 56 years
43 1976 - now - 48 years (HST)
56 1977 - now - 47 years
87 1973- 2019 - 46 years (not counting LSL examples)
33 1960- 2003 - 43 years (64 if you include the Nemsis and WCR examples)
76 1941- 1981 - 40 years (prototype - rest of fleet 31 years)
59 1986 - now - 38 years
90 1988 - now - 36 years
91 1988 - now - 36 years
26 1958-1993 - 35 years
60 1991 - now - 33 years
03 1957-1989 - 32 years (67 if you include the two used by West Coast Railways)
81 1959-1991 - 32 years
25 1961-1991 - 30 years
40 1958-1988 - 30 years
85 1961-1991 - 30 years
45 1960-1989 - 29 years
83 1960-1989 - 29 years
58 1983-2011 - 28 years
70 1941-1969 - 28 years (electric)
11 1945-1972 - 27 years
50 1967-1994 - 27 years
82 1960-1987 - 27 years
27 1961-1987 - 26 years
57 1998 - now - 26 years
66 1998 - now - 26 years
67 1999- now - 25 years
06 1958-1984 - 23 years (26 if you include the Reading Signal Works one)
12 1949-1971 - 23 years
46 1961-1984 - 23 years
24 1958-1980 - 22 years
44 1959-1980 - 21 years
55 1961-1982 - 21 years
92 1993-now - 21 years
04 1952-1972 - 20 years
13 1965-1985 - 20 years
84 1960-1980 - 20 years
71 1958-1977 - 19 years
10 1955-1972 - 17 years
52 1961-1977 - 16 years
89 1986-2002 - 16 years
02 1960-1975 - 15 years
07 1962-1977 - 15 years
70 2009- now - 15 years (diesel)
77 1953-1968 - 15 years
15 1957-1971 - 14 years
35 1961-1975 - 14 years
42 1958-1972 - 14 years
22 1959-1972 - 13 years
05 1967-1983 - 12 years (28 if you include the Isle of Wight exile)
23 1959-1971 - 12 years
30 1957-1968 - 12 years
01 1967-1981 - 11 years (25 if you include the "Holyhead Two"
43 1960-1971 - 11 years (Warship)
16 1958-1968 - 10 years
21 1958-1968 - 10 years
28 1958-1968 - 10 years
68 2014- now - 10 years
17 1962-1971 - 9 years
41 1958-1967 - 9 years (Warship)
74 1968-1977 - 9 years
29 1963-1971 - 8 years (13 if you include their previous existence as class 21s)
88 2017- now - 7 years
48 1965-1971 - 6 years (rebuilt as class 47)
14 1964-1959 - 5 years

Median longevity for locomotive classes is 23 years

DMUs

121 1960-2017 - 57 years
101 1956-2003 - 47 years
205 1959-2004 - 46 years
207 1962-2005 - 43 years
117 1959-2000 - 41 years
150 1984 - now - 40 years
116 1957-1995 - 38 years
114 1956-1993 - 37 years
119 1958-1995 - 37 years
155 1987 - now - 37 years
115 1960-1996 - 36 years
122 1958-1994 - 36 years
143 1985-2021 - 36 years
156 1988 - now - 36 years
104 1957-1992 - 35 years
108 1958-1993 - 35 years
118 1960-1995 - 35 years
142 1985-2020 - 35 years
120 1957-1991 - 34 years
158 1990 - now - 34 years
144 1986-2020 - 34 years
100 1957-1990 - 33 years
153 1991 - now - 33 years
165 1991 - now - 33 years
105 1957-1989 - 32 years
107 1960-1992 - 32 years
203 1958-1990 - 32 years
159 1993 - now - 31 years
166 1993 - now - 31 years
111 1957-1987 - 30 years
128 1960-1990 - 30 years
202 1957-1987 - 30 years
204 1957-1987 - 30 years
110 1961-1990 - 29 years
201 1957-1986 - 29 years
126 1956-1983 - 27 years
103 1957-1983 - 26 years
168 1998 - now - 26 years
127 1959-1984 - 25 years
170 1999 - now - 25 years
124 1960-1984 - 24 years
175 2000-2023 - 23 years (expected to be re-instated)
180 2001 - now - 23 years
220 2001 - now - 23 years
221 2002 - now - 22 years
123 1963-1984 - 21 years
141 1984-2005 - 21 years
171 2003 - now - 21 years
106 1956-1976 - 20 years (converted to class 105)
222 2004 - now - 20 years
102 1957-1976 - 19 years (converted to class 101)
125 1958-1977 - 19 years
206 1965-1983 - 18 years - reformed as classs 201 and 204
185 2006 - now - 18 years
129 1958-1973 - 15 years
139 2009- now - 15 years
251 1959-1974 - 15 year
172 2010 - now - 14 years
112 1959-1969 - 10 years
113 1959-1969 - 10 years
140 1981-1986- 5 years
195 2019 - now - 5 years
210 1982-1987 - 5 years (two vehicles re-used in class 455s)
230 2019 - now - 5 years (converted from LU stock built c 1980)
109 1957-1961 - 4 years
196 2022 - now - 2 years
197 2022 - now - 2 years
231 2023 - now - 1 year

Median - 29 years

EMU

487- 1940-1993 - 53 years W&C
411- 1956-2005 - 49 years 4CEP
412- 1956-2004 - 48 years 4BEP (formerly class 410)
313- 1976-2023 - 47 years
503- 1938-1985 - 47 years
507- 1978- now - 46 years
508- 1979-2024 - 45 years (some vehicles still in use in class 455)
415- 1951-1995 - 44 years 4EPB
303- 1959-2002 - 43 years
405- 1941-1983 - 42 years 4SUB
315- 1980-2022 - 42 years
421- 1964-2006 - 42 years 4CIG
305- 1960-2001 - 41 years
416- 1954-1995 - 41 years 2EPB
423- 1967-2008 - 41 years 4VEP
455- 1983- now - 41 years
502- 1939-1980 - 41 years
314- 1979-2019 - 40 years
302- 1958-1998 - 40 years
308- 1961-2001 - 40 years
505- 1931-1971 - 40 years
317- 1983-2022 - 39 years
403- 1933-1972 - 39 years 5BEL
309- 1962-2000 - 38 years
318- 1986- now - 38 years
414- 1957-1995 - 38 years 2HAP
307- 1956-1993 - 37 years (major rebuilding when c 5 years old)
319- 1987-2024- 37 years (some units converted to class 769)
304- 1960-1996 - 36 years
310- 1965-2001 - 36 years
401- 1935-1971 - 36 years 2BIL
321- 1988- 2023 - 35 years (some converted to class 320)
404- 1937-1972 - 35 years 4COR
320- 1990- now - 34 years
422- 1965-1999 - 34 years 4BIG (formerly class 420)
419- 1959-1992 - 33 yaers MLV
306- 1949-1981 - 32 years (major rebuilding when c 11 years old)
322- 1990-2022 - 32 years
402- 1939-1971 - 32 years 2HAL
442- 1988-2020 - 32 years
465- 1992- now - 32 years
483- 1989-2021 - 32years (converted from LT stock c 1938)
504- 1959-1981 - 32 years
456- 1991-2022 - 31 years
466- 1993- now - 31 years
323 - 1994-now - 30 years
373- 1994- now - 30 years
506- 1954-1984 - 30 years
312- 1975-2004- 29 years
325 - 1995-2024 - 29 years (withdrawal imminent)
501- 1956-1985 - 29 years
365- 1996-2021 - 25 years
432- 1967-1992 - 25 years 4REP (formerly class 430)
438- 1966-1991 - 25 years 4TC (formerly class 491)
311- 1966-1990 - 24 years
357- 2000- now - 24 years
375- 2000- now - 24 years
458- 2000- now - 24 years
333- 2001- now - 23 years
334- 2001- now - 23 years
332- 1998-2020 - 22 years
390- 2002- now - 22 years
485- 1967-1989 - 22 years 4VEC (converted from LT stock c 1930)
486- 1967-1989 - 22 years 3TIS (converted from LT stock c 1930)
360- 2003- now - 21 years
377- 2003- now - 21 years
450- 2003- now - 21 years
376- 2004- now - 20 years
444- 2004- now - 20 years
350- 2005- now - 19 years
488- 1984-2002 - 18 years (Gatwick Express, converted from hailed stock)
489- 1984-2002 - 18 years (GLV, converted from class 414))
378- 2009- now - 15 years
395- 2009- now - 15 years
AM1-1953-1967 - 14 years (rebuilt from DC stock)
380- 2010- now - 14 years
413- 1982-1995 - 13 years 4CAP (converted from 414)
460- 2000-2012 - 12 years (recycled as class 458)
379- 2011-2022 - 11 years
387- 2014- now - 10 years
374- 2015- now - 9 years
700- 2016- now - 8 years
345- 2017- now - 7 years
370- 1980-1986 - 6 years
399- 2017- now - 7 years
480- 1968-1975 - 7 years 8VAB (converted from 4VEP)
707- 2017- now - 7 years
800- 2017- now - 7 years
385- 2018- now - 6 years
418- 1974-1980 - 6 years 2SAP (converted from 2HAP)
427- 1978-1984 - 6 years 4VEG (converted from 4VEP)
499- 1968-1974 - 6 years TLV (converted from hauled stock)
717- 2018- now - 6 years
802- 2018- now - 6 years
331- 2019- now - 5 years
710- 2019- now - 5 years
755- 2019- now - 5 years
397- 2019- now - 5 years
801- 2019- now - 5 years
720- 2020- now - 4 years
745- 2020- now - 4 years
769- 2020- now - 4 years
484- 2021- now - 3 years (converted from LU stock built c 1980)
803- 2021- now - 3 years
482- 1993-1994 - 1 year: transferred to LUL
730- 2023- now - 1 year
777- 2023- now - 1 year
701- 2024- now - <1 year
805- 2024- now - <1 year

median 24 years (35 counting only extinct classes)

 

[Railsigns]

14 1964-1959 - 5 years

Years transposed or a typing error?

 

[Magdalia]

Following a comment on the class 458/4 thread, suggesting the wihdrawal of the ex-Class 460 vehicles at 25 years old is a bit premature, I thought it would be of interest to look at longevity of other classes, so here goes.

Would it be more appropriate to compare with other EMUs, not locomotives?

43 1976 - now - 48 years (HST)

Just like class 30->31 or class 21->29, all of class 43 were re-engined, so your table has a significant inconsistency.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Just like class 30->31 or class 21->29, all of class 43 were re-engined, so your table has a significant inconsistency.

Quite, but they were not reclassified - TOPS classes are not consistent they are the best we have. Lots of DMUs had new engines fitted, and two Class 17s had difverent engines from their classmates.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Would it be more appropriate to compare with other EMUs, not locomotives?

I'll get round to that shortly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

Years transposed or a typing error?

Typo - now corrected

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Quite a bit of good old English Electric stuff in there.

 

[Ted633]

Class 121 - forgetting about the Chiltern ones? Served until 2017, making 57 years service

Classes 86/87 - only preserved examples left operational (excluding export).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Class 121 - forgetting about the Chiltern ones? Served until 2017, making 57 years service

Classes 86/87 - only preserved examples left operational (excluding export).

Thanks - my source omitted the chiltern one, which I think was resurrected from extinction. And was a bit out of date on the electrics.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

While I am happy to accept the numbers quoted as being factually accurate how many of them reflect frontline daily service? Many of the older examples listed as still in service refer to limited numbers of vehicles which are not necessarily used very often or which had a long spell out of use before being resurrected. And how many shunters have ever been used intensively over a long period of time? Such a raw list doesn't really compare apples with apples. Perhaps someone would like to compile a similar list reflecting actual fleet operation (ie excluding limited operations by small numbers of survivors within a class) on regularly diagrammed work. As such massive plaudits to Class 150, a fleet largely intact and used as intensively as ever.

 

[norbitonflyer]

While I am happy to accept the numbers quoted as being factually accurate how many of them reflect frontline daily service? Many of the older examples listed as still in service refer to limited numbers of vehicles which are not necessarily used very often or which had a long spell out of use before being resurrected. And how many shunters have ever been used intensively over a long period of time? Such a raw list doesn't really compare apples with apples. Perhaps someone would like to compile a similar list reflecting actual fleet operation (ie excluding limited operations by small numbers of survivors within a class) on regularly diagrammed work. As such massive plaudits to Class 150, a fleet largely intact and used as intensively as ever.

Indeed, the raw data, particuarly for locomotives, may be misleading and it is probably only instructive to compare similar types. Neverteless tghere are some interesting juxtapositions - class 84 was considered a flop, but some of them remained in service almost as long as the Deltics

 

[Trackman]

Great list, thanks.
Thought class 37's would be above the class 20s.
Didn't the class 31's disappear about 5 years ago, or are there some lurking about still on the mainline?

 

[StephenHunter]

Great list, thanks.
Thought class 37's would be above the class 20s.
Didn't the class 31's disappear about 5 years ago, or are there some lurking about still on the mainline?

31452 is still mainline, I believe.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Thought class 37's would be above the class 20s.

No indeed. Class 20 was the very first "pilot scheme" design to appear. There were no Type 3s in the pilot scheme

For the edification of younger readers, the "pilot scheme" was part of the British Railways 1955 Modernisation Plan, to build 178 locomotives of 14 different designs in three different power ranges, for assessment before ordering standard classes in bulk. The first ones appeared in 1957 and all were in service by 1960. Unfortunately BR was then pressured to place repeat orders for most of the designs before assessment was complete, resulting in the menagerie of designs, many not very good, BR was stuck with in the 1960s and 1970s. Only classes 16, 23 and 28 were such obvious lemons that they got no repeat orders at all. (although two more, classes 41 and 44, were redesigned enough that the production versions eventually justifed new TOPS classes - 43 and 45 respectively). Some other classes (24, 26, 45) had changes duringb the production run, so later mambers had a new classificatiuon (25, 27 and 46 respectively, and arguably class 47 was a further upgrade of the 46). Class 30 was unusual in that the entire class, including the pilot scheme locos, were retro-fitted with a different make of engine (a version of that in the class 37, as it happens, downrated to suit the four (instead of six) traction motors) and were reclassified as class 31. However, the pilot scheme locos retained their non-standard coupling code.

TOPS classes were of course applied later

Type A (later known as Type 1) - up to 1000hp, freight.
Class 15 (10)
Class 16 (10)
Class 20 (20)

Type B (later known as Type 2) - 1000-1500hp, mixed traffic
Class 21 (10)
Class 22 (10) - hydraulic - intended to be a direct comparison with the diesel electric class 21
Class 23 (10)
Class 24 (20)
Class 26 (20)
Class 28 (20) - only 2 stroke design
Class 30 (20)

Type C (later known as Type 4) - over 2000hp
Class 40 (10)
Class 41 (5) twin engined version of class 22
Class 42 (3)
Class 44 (10)

 

[Trackman]

31452 is still mainline, I believe.

Looked it up, says 'under repair'. Doesn't state to what extent, though. Could be like 55 016.

 

[randyrippley]

28 wasn't the only 2-stroke design, 23 was as well though of unusual configuration.

28 used what was essentially a off-the-shelf slow-speed marine 2-stroke
23 used a high-speed double acting 2-stroke using an experimental design derived from WWII german aircraft technology

 

[norbitonflyer]

28 wasn't the only 2-stroke design, 23 was as well, using an experimental design derived from WWII german aircraft technology .

Of course it was - mea culpa.
Although by 1959 the design was hardly experimental, having been used by the Navy in minesweepers and fast attack vessels since 1954. (And still in use as recently as 2018)

 

[ac6000cw]

23 used a high-speed double acting 2-stroke using an experimental design derived from WWII german aircraft technology

AKA a 9-cylinder turbocharged Napier 'Deltic' diesel engine.

Napier was a licensee of Junkers Jumo (2-stroke opposed-piston) aircraft diesel engine designs in the 1930s, so the 'Deltic' engine was actually derived from pre-WWII technology. Junkers had worked on a three-bank 'delta' design but gave up on it, whereas Napier perfected it in the 1940s (for Naval use originally).

(BTW - 'double-acting' is not the same as 'opposed-piston' - the first is a single piston driven back and forth by expanding gas alternately on each side of it e.g. as in a normal steam loco cylinder, the second is two single-acting pistons facing each other in a single cylinder and moving in opposite directions).

 

[Merle Haggard]

28 wasn't the only 2-stroke design, 23 was as well though of unusual configuration.

28 used what was essentially a off-the-shelf slow-speed marine 2-stroke
23 used a high-speed double acting 2-stroke using an experimental design derived from WWII german aircraft technology

There were 10 '350' shunters with Crossley 2-stroke engines.
They finished up at Toton and someone I know was a fitter when they were on the allocation. He remembered that the usual cause of failure was coking up, and he had to go to the yard and, after dismantling, scrape large amounts of carbon away from the passages.
My 1960s shed bashes were usually in hired Commer 'Avengers'. The 2 - stroke engines in these didn't have that problem; they de-coked themselves once the speed really built up (& they were fast) - by ejecting a stream of sparks (burning soot) from the exhaust. First time I encounters it the driver said the classic line 'it does that sometiimes'. Other road users didn't always stay calm...

 

[ac6000cw]

My 1960s shed bashes were usually in hired Commer 'Avengers'. The 2 - stroke engines in these didn't have that problem; they de-coked themselves once the speed really built up (& they were fast) - by ejecting a stream of sparks (burning soot) from the exhaust. First time I encounters it the driver said the classic line 'it does that sometiimes'. Other road users didn't always stay calm...

Yes, back then a common recommendation for cars that were mostly used for short journeys was to take them out for a decent thrash periodically for a bit of 'de-coking'...

60+ years later, I can still hear the scream of a rather overloaded old Commer truck struggling up a steep hill as I walked home from school - it was seriously loud...

Of course it was - mea culpa.
Although by 1959 the design was hardly experimental, having been used by the Navy in minesweepers and fast attack vessels since 1954. (And still in use as recently as 2018)

Given the subsequent major problems with the Crossley rail engines in GB, Ireland and Australia, I'd regard them as being the 'experimental' engines rather than the Napier Deltics...

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Can anyone add London Underground (including departmental stock). There are some long lived examples.

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes, back then a common recommendation for cars that were mostly used for short journeys was to take them out for a decent thrash periodically for a bit of 'de-coking'...

60+ years later, I can still hear the scream of a rather overloaded old Commer truck struggling up a steep hill as walked home from school - it was seriously loud...

Think it was known as an Italian tune up!

 

[D1537]

The first Class 47 entered traffic in September 1962, not 1963.

The oldest still in mainline service is a 1963 build, but I suspect you didn't want to go to that level of detail!

 

[ac6000cw]

Related to the 'Longevity of traction', of the 'still in service' classes on the list, any opinions on which ones should not still be in service in 2024?

Despite me being basically in the 'diesel head' category (and a regular heritage railway 'diesel gala' attendee), I don't think we should still be using noisy, smoky and smelly 37's on inspection and test trains. I was at Ely station recently when a Colas operated test train, top and tailed by 37's, accelerated away leaving the busy station wreathed in smelly diesel exhaust smoke - you could tell from the reaction of the people on the platform that they weren't very impressed, and it wasn't exactly a good advert for a supposedly 'green' railway...

 

[norbitonflyer]

There were 10 '350' shunters with Crossley 2-stroke engines.

Indeed so, but I was talking about pilot scheme designs,

 

[yorksrob]

Just shows how robust and reliable the Southern slammers were. Wonderful trains, all of them.

 

[xotGD]

Just shows how robust and reliable the Southern slammers were. Wonderful trains, all of them.

Or a sad indictment into the lack of investment in replacement stock!

 

[yorksrob]

Or a sad indictment into the lack of investment in replacement stock!

No, absolutely not

 

[Rescars]

Or a sad indictment into the lack of investment in replacement stock!

How many times were some components recycled? IIRC some of the carriages involved in the accident at Cannon Street in 1991 were built on underframes dating back to the 1920s.

 

[norbitonflyer]

How many times were some components recycled? IIRC some of the carriages involved in the accident at Cannon Street in 1991 were built on underframes dating back to the 1920s.

Indeed so. The units were 5618, 5484 and 6227, respectively a BR-design 4EPB, an SR-design 4EPB, and a BR-design 2EPB. (pre TOPS numbers 5337, 5031, 5727).

5484 consisted of vehicles
14061 (whose 1927 underframe came from vehicle 8501, which had an ex-SER body, and was part of 3SUB 1604 and then 4SUB 4587)
15031 (built 1948 as 10192, originally as an "augmentation" trailer for 4SUB unit 4580),
15308 (1928 underframe from vehicle 9215 which had an ex-LSWR body, firstly part of trailer unit 1127, later in 4SUB 4202)
14046 (built new in 1953)
(data, as always, from Hugh Longworth)

The Evening Standard got the gist of the story (steam age rollinmg stock in fatal train crash) , but mangled it by relying on GT Moody's comprehensive but out-of-date history of the Southern Electric 1909-1979, citing 5618 as having been built on former 2NOL underframes dating from 1935/36, to carry ex-LSWR bodies. That was true of unit 5618 in 1979, but it was an SR-design 2HAP (later 2SAP) that was withdrawn in 1980 - (cars 14538/16018, buit on frames of 9891/9933 from units 1843/1876) - the trailer was scrapped, but in 1991 the motor coach was still around, as part of 4EPB unit 5425.

By 1991 the number was applied to a completely different, and much younger, unit - built in 1960. The Southern re-used everything - including unit numbers!

The irony was that the old underframes stood up very well to the crash, slicing through the less substantial (and younger) bodies on which they had been mounted.

 

[Rescars]

Indeed so. The units were 5618, 5484 and 6227, respectively a BR-design 4EPB, an SR-design 4EPB, and a BR-design 2EPB. (pre TOPS numbers 5337, 5031, 5727).

5484 consisted of vehicles
14061 (whose 1927 underframe came from vehicle 8501, which had an ex-SER body, and was part of 3SUB 1604 and then 4SUB 4587)
15031 (built 1948 as 10192, originally as an "augmentation" trailer for 4SUB unit 4580),
15308 (1928 underframe from vehicle 9215 which had an ex-LSWR body, firstly part of trailer unit 1127, later in 4SUB 4202)
14046 (built new in 1953)
(data, as always, from Hugh Longworth)

The Evening Standard got the gist of the story (steam age rollinmg stock in fatal train crash) , but mangled it by relying on GT Moody's comprehensive but out-of-date history of the Southern Electric 1909-1979, citing 5618 as having been built on former 2NOL underframes dating from 1935/36, to carry ex-LSWR bodies. That was true of unit 5618 in 1979, but it was an SR-design 2HAP (later 2SAP) that was withdrawn in 1980 - (cars 14538/16018, buit on frames of 9891/9933 from units 1843/1876) - the trailer was scrapped, but in 1991 the motor coach was still around, as part of 4EPB unit 5425.

By 1991 the number was applied to a completely different, and much younger, unit - built in 1960. The Southern re-used everything - including unit numbers!

The irony was that the old underframes stood up very well to the crash, slicing through the less substantial (and younger) bodies on which they had been mounted.

Many thanks for these details. I only got as far as the ES version. Some staff of the firm I worked for at the time were travelling on this train, but happily walked away, shaken but otherwise unscathed. Others were not so lucky. The old underframes were clearly very robust. Thank goodness monocoque construction means telescoping is no longer the risk that it was.

 

[simonsays]

Prototype 76 was scrapped in 1972 so 31 years for the entire class is correct rather than 40.

Class 77 carried on operating as a class in the Netherlands until 1986 so I would book that as 33 rather than 15 but it's your stats.