Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[43066]

Please explain how that delays a variation of an existing train being brought into service?

Because it isn’t just a variation of an existing train. It’s a fundamental redesign which is something like 70% “new”.

 

[Nottingham59]

Please explain how that delays a variation of an existing train being brought into service?

Because if there were a consistent fleet of Intercity trains, in continuous production, then you can cascade them across the network to where they are most needed. So you don't avoid the delays that we've seen with the 810, which is a brand new train in on the AT300 base.

 

[QSK19]

Maybe Hitachi negotiated with EMR on the delay?

I highly doubt it - see below.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Trust me, there has been no negotiation over a delay between EMR and Hitachi.

Hitachi have milestones they are contracted to achieve, and keep missing each one spectacularly!

Indeed - and the £15.29m payout to Rock Rail suggests that there have been no negotiations over delays!

Mind you, Eversholt must be loving this. All that extra revenue from the 222s staying put for much longer than thought!

 

[meowtrain]

Found a picture of 810004’s interior while parked at St Pancras for its test runs last month, credit to zubinmphotography on instagram.

Interesting that it looks like the seat reservation screens might be a little bit longer to incorporate the light up colours that show reservation status rather than having the separate light up LEDs.

Either way it’s looking very nice imo, good to finally see the 810s interior uncovered and outside of renders, hopefully the warm lighting in the pic is accurate too. Looking very fancy compared to the 222 it’s Parked up with!

 

[43066]

Looking very fancy compared to the 222 it’s Parked up with!

It’s amazing how quickly existing stock looks dated once it’s seen parked next to its replacement.

Agreed on the warm lighting, both outside and in!

 

[LYuen]

Found a picture of 810004’s interior while parked at St Pancras for its test runs last month, credit to zubinmphotography on instagram.

Interesting that it looks like the seat reservation screens might be a little bit longer to incorporate the light up colours that show reservation status rather than having the separate light up LEDs.

Either way it’s looking very nice imo, good to finally see the 810s interior uncovered and outside of renders, hopefully the warm lighting in the pic is accurate too. Looking very fancy compared to the 222 it’s Parked up with!

Seats are slightly misaligned with the windows, unlike the 805s
Is it the same seat as Avanti, with faux leather headrest?
Nice ambient from the lighting though.

 

[QSK19]

Found a picture of 810004’s interior while parked at St Pancras for its test runs last month, credit to zubinmphotography on instagram.

Interesting that it looks like the seat reservation screens might be a little bit longer to incorporate the light up colours that show reservation status rather than having the separate light up LEDs.

Either way it’s looking very nice imo, good to finally see the 810s interior uncovered and outside of renders, hopefully the warm lighting in the pic is accurate too. Looking very fancy compared to the 222 it’s Parked up with!

It’ll be nice to see them sitting at STP with pan up eventually!

 

[Meerkat]

Because if there were a consistent fleet of Intercity trains, in continuous production, then you can cascade them across the network to where they are most needed. So you don't avoid the delays that we've seen with the 810, which is a brand new train in on the AT300 base.

That means you are stuck with a years old design with no updates, and one that might not be suitable for the route - ie wrong lengths/number of engines. Remember HSTs had different lengths and formations.
And you would be stuck with the design chosen by the DfT, which hasn’t gone well so far.
And of course when you find the trains don’t really work you are really knackered, with a single source supply that is going to take you To the cleaners for any variations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it the same seat as Avanti, with faux leather headrest?

No, it's the FISA LEAN.

 

[Trainbike46]

That means you are stuck with a years old design with no updates, and one that might not be suitable for the route - ie wrong lengths/number of engines. Remember HSTs had different lengths and formations.
And you would be stuck with the design chosen by the DfT, which hasn’t gone well so far.
And of course when you find the trains don’t really work you are really knackered, with a single source supply that is going to take you To the cleaners for any variations.

a fleet of 9-car 80x at 234m would have been suitable, if the decision was made to run all IC services at that length. The desire to run some services at 5-car/120m length is what drove most of the design changes to the 810

But anyway, that is all moot now, 810s are what is coming, so let's hope they'll be inservice soon, as it sounds like their capacity would be welcome!

 

[Merle Haggard]

It’s amazing how quickly existing stock looks dated once it’s seen parked next to its replacement.

Agreed on the warm lighting, both outside and in!

I've been thinking about your remark carefully; it is satire, isn't it?
On the side by side view the only major difference is there's no shroud over the coupler on the old unit.

 

[signed]

Found a picture of 810004’s interior while parked at St Pancras for its test runs last month, credit to zubinmphotography on instagram.

Interesting that it looks like the seat reservation screens might be a little bit longer to incorporate the light up colours that show reservation status rather than having the separate light up LEDs.

Either way it’s looking very nice imo, good to finally see the 810s interior uncovered and outside of renders, hopefully the warm lighting in the pic is accurate too. Looking very fancy compared to the 222 it’s Parked up with!

That livery looks very good

 

[Spartacus]

a fleet of 9-car 80x at 234m would have been suitable, if the decision was made to run all IC services at that length. The desire to run some services at 5-car/120m length is what drove most of the design changes to the 810

But anyway, that is all moot now, 810s are what is coming, so let's hope they'll be inservice soon, as it sounds like their capacity would be welcome!

With the services EMR runs, and splitting and joining being required in various places at various times of the day, having a fleet of 9 car 80xs was never an option. How's Lincoln to cope with a 234m long train when the longest platform is 165m? If you're lucky it'd just clear the level crossing (though probably not allow release anyway), but it certainly wouldn't clear the pointwork.

 

[Trainbike46]

With the services EMR runs, and splitting and joining being required in various places at various times of the day, having a fleet of 9 car 80xs was never an option. How's Lincoln to cope with a 234m long train when the longest platform is 165m? If you're lucky it'd just clear the level crossing (though probably not allow release anyway), but it certainly wouldn't clear the pointwork.

I was only talking about the IC network, not the emr regional or emr connect services - i thought that would be obvious. there are the 2 tpd from Lincoln, but whether those are worth keeping is for another thread.

And as I said, moot anyway, as the 810s were selected and are on the way.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I was only talking about the IC network, not the emr regional or emr connect services - i thought that would be obvious. there are the 2 tpd from Lincoln, but whether those are worth keeping is for another thread.

And as I said, moot anyway, as the 810s were selected and are on the way.

I think the other point is that if you ran everything as 9-car, there'd be fewer trains but more carriages. That would presumably be significantly costlier and to reduce the amount of fresh air being carried around, there's a risk the number of affordable fares would have to significantly increase to drive ridership (the old Nottingham HST services were very "spacious" off-peak, even when Megatrain was running).

That being said of course a further 20 of the more standard trains would presumably have been in service more earlier too - bringing benefits forward.
There's an entirely legitimate debate to be had about whether this approach would have actually been better but Trainbike46 points out, it needs a speculative thread.

Back on topic - I haven't seen any evidence that the 810 tests are getting to London at the moment - am I right?
Was hoping to go and have a look at one if they were regularly getting down South.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was only talking about the IC network, not the emr regional or emr connect services - i thought that would be obvious. there are the 2 tpd from Lincoln, but whether those are worth keeping is for another thread.

And as I said, moot anyway, as the 810s were selected and are on the way.

Your point is still valid about the splitting and joining - but LNER operate the 9 car 26m sets from Lincoln now, and have done since they replaced the HST. They continue under pelham bridge to avoid the crossing. But agree 5-car is better.

 

[43066]

I've been thinking about your remark carefully; it is satire, isn't it?
On the side by side view the only major difference is there's no shroud over the coupler on the old unit.

Not at all. Can you honestly not see any other differences between the 222s and the 810s?! They look very different in the flesh - to my eyes at least!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not at all. Can you honestly not see any other differences between the 222s and the 810s?! They look very different in the flesh - to my eyes at least!

I haven't seen one in the metal, no. But, from experience, I personally don't regard the generally similar Avanti trains as having only advances over the 'Voyager' type, I accept that's down to personal preferences - where I think one feature in particular is much worse - and accept opinions vary.

One is also making a comparison between a shiny new train type and one in a perhaps neglected internal condition* with minimal replacement vinyl over a very old base finish.

* not least because of the considerable delay in delivery of the new ones.

 

[Yew]

Several hundred crew to take off roster and train, so they need two static units for the traction courses, with one each to be placed on the depots at Kettering and Derby. Then two units to be driven on the mainline on training diagrams, with one spare AIUI.

You wouldn’t be able to do all elements of the training with just one unit, and it wouldn’t really make sense to pull people off roster until the training can be done in earnest.

But training a few crews, who can run the trains, and act as instructors and mentors for others building up competence? That seems much more manageable than some sort of big-bang all in one transition.

 

[YorksLad12]

Seats are slightly misaligned with the windows, unlike the 805s

I'd like to have seen other table bays; there might be a reason, it might be consistent throughout the coach or it might be like TPEs Mk5As which has 'table creep' so that it started off correct at the centre but the ends of the carriages were wholly misaligned.

 

[43066]

One is also making a comparison between a shiny new train type and one in a perhaps neglected internal condition* with minimal replacement vinyl over a very old base finish.

* not least because of the considerable delay in delivery of the new ones.

Well yes, that’s very true!

But training a few crews, who can run the trains, and act as instructors and mentors for others building up competence? That seems much more manageable than some sort of big-bang all in one transition.

It won’t be a 360 style “big bang” - they will aim to train (say) 20 crew members across all depots per week. But that will require several units for all aspects, with units gradually being introduced as crew are trained. The details and exact numbers etc. haven’t yet been fully thrashed out - however there is now scope for that as the dispute is (hopefully) about to reach a conclusion.

There will of course need to be initial courses to train the trainers, so to speak. The testing is being done by GBRF drivers so nobody at EMR signs them as yet AIUI.

 

[lokiavivson]

Does anyone know what the 810 PIS supplier is? As Hitachi have used these PIS suppliers:
Alma Viva - 805/807
Axion (SAViewCom) - 395
Televic - 385 and 800/801/802/803

Also these are the PIS suppliers for current members of the EMR fleet:
Axion (SAViewCom) - 360
BTROS (Whiteleys) - 170
Televic - 222
TrainFX - 158

 

[AndrewJM70]

I still don’t understand why it will be allegedly at least another year for entry into service when there are already sets fully fitted out on test.

 

[43055]

I still don’t understand why it will be allegedly at least another year for entry into service when there are already sets fully fitted out on test.

Only 2 units have left the factory (810001, 810004).

 

[800001]

Only 2 units have left the factory (810001, 810004).

Three!

810001, 810003 and 810004. (001 just a shell, 003 and 004 both with interior fitted).

 

[blueberry11]

One section of the MML was recently electrified (Kettering to Wigston (just south of Leicester) and its still quite far for passengers to experience riding on an electric train on that section. Will there be any EMUs to Market Harborough?

 

[liamf656]

One section of the MML was recently electrified (Kettering to Wigston (just south of Leicester) and its still quite far for passengers to experience riding on an electric train on that section. Will there be any EMUs to Market Harborough?

There aren't any plans for it except the 810s. If you mean the 360s there aren't any paths or space to turn back at Market Harborough

 

[AndrewJM70]

Market Harborough gets 2tph to London so there would be little point in running 360s just one stop further. This might change when the wires reach Leicester, 5 miles or so from where they stop now.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Market Harborough gets 2tph to London so there would be little point in running 360s just one stop further. This might change when the wires reach Leicester, 5 miles or so from where they stop now.

There would be an obvious problem with using 360s on any extra services; they can't cover the present diagrams. Trains short-formed and delays/cancellations 'due to a problem with this train' are usual.

 

[Nottingham59]

Market Harborough gets 2tph to London so there would be little point in running 360s just one stop further. This might change when the wires reach Leicester, 5 miles or so from where they stop now.

When the wires reach Leicester, I can enivisage a re-cast of the EMR Connect timetable with one 360 going to Corby and one to Leicester each hour. Though that would need more EMU stock or much better availability than they're getting now.

It would also be possible now to take one of the Corby 360s just to Market Harborough and reverse it there, or hide it in the now-electrified sidings at Kilby. But I'm not sure how that would fit into the timetable. The line between Wigston and Kettering sees very little freight because it cannot be pathed between the fast trains, but a 360 wouldn't have that problem.

That would allow one of the Nottinghams to skip Harborough, which would still have 1tph to Leicester and 2tph to London.