Cross Country Cancellations - Emergency Timetable

[Towers]

Hopefully it will be swiftly reported to someone’s MP that XC are now further taking the p*ss by running “strengthened” trains with half the coaches locked out of use, and Ms Haigh can ‘revise’ her advice accordingly!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

I'd be perfectly happy with a driver in one unit and a guard in the other. Vastly preferable to having one set locked out and having to stand.

It is only ever a union agreement that requires otherwise, there is absolutely no requirement for it in the Rulebook.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'd be perfectly happy with a driver in one unit and a guard in the other.

So would I, and the nonsense of an 8-car train, even advertised as such but with only one unit open, regularly occurred when 1M18 0515 Southampton-Manchester Piccadilly had the set from the cancelled 1E79 0645 Reading-Newcastle attached.

 

[12LDA28C]

I find it unbelievable that we’ve reached a low in this country where there are potentially hundreds of people on board a train with no other staff than the driver who is hardly in a position to assist with anything if things go wrong. Shameful. And heaven forbid if several people need assistance at any given station

What nonsense. Thousands of DOO services run perfectly safely every day.

 

[baza585]

Hopefully it will be swiftly reported to someone’s MP that XC are now further taking the p*ss by running “strengthened” trains with half the coaches locked out of use, and Ms Haigh can ‘revise’ her advice accordingly!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==


It is only ever a union agreement that requires otherwise, there is absolutely no requirement for it in the Rulebook.

As a regular traveller on XC, I despair of the management that ever agreed to having to have a non- driving member of staff in each unit.

I also despair of the RMT or ASLEF not being flexible in circumstances such as these.

As a mere passenger, sometimes it feels like the tail industry has a death wish.

 

[PupCuff]

I think criticism of the requirement to have a second staff member is probably a bit of a red herring here to be honest, it isn't only XC who have this requirement (EMR Meridians have the same requirement and GWR introduced the "Lead Customer Host" role for similar reasons) and on an intercity train with long distances between stops having someone in each unit who can deal with customer service issues and any safety problems that crop up (person falls over in the toilet etc) is sensible in my view.

A fully crewed double voyager is two train managers and two retail service managers, often supplemented with a first class host on a weekday. For a unit to end up being locked out, at least three turns therefore have to be uncovered, with no train managers or catering staff picking the open turns up off spare or rest day work, and as a last resort no contingent managers picking up the turns either. Caterers don't even need to sign the route, so theoretically you could use a retail service manager or first class host from anywhere on the network.

The question IMO shouldn't be why can't we run with fewer staff, it should be why has the resourcing picture been allowed to get so bad?

 

[occone]

Also let's not forget a contributing factor - that the physical trains don't have gangways and are far too short. This inherently makes the service more vulnerable to staffing issues and overcrowding.

Everything about XC is mediocre.

 

[Senex]

The question IMO shouldn't be why can't we run with fewer staff, it should be why has the resourcing picture been allowed to get so bad?

And doesn't that have to be down to a management that signed up to deliver a certain level of service and has then totally failed to deliver?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

Also let's not forget a contributing factor - that the physical trains don't have gangways and are far too short. This inherently makes the service more vulnerable to staffing issues and overcrowding.

Everything about XC is mediocre.

XC has been pretty bad ever since the present franchisee got the contract, and has just got steadily worse.

As for the short trains, surely for the most part that's down to DfT. And no lessons seem to have been learnt. They still go on procuring 5-car sets for longer-distance routes.

 

[fishwomp]

Caterers don't even need to sign the route, so theoretically you could use a retail service manager or first class host from anywhere on the network.

This makes running with a unit locked out even more ridiculous, shameful even.

A unit that is overloaded will ...

1. get later at each stop - due to boarding difficulties
2. Be less healthy for many travellers, standing, overheating etc.
3. Be harder to reach the loo - disabled or not.

and of course

1. Reduce future revenue due to the experience..

Whereas quite literally they could hire someone off the street, pay minimum wage, and solve the problem - possibly less than the cheapest fare paid by anyone on the train.. let alone the 100 standing passengers.

 

[WAB]

I think criticism of the requirement to have a second staff member is probably a bit of a red herring here to be honest, it isn't only XC who have this requirement (EMR Meridians have the same requirement and GWR introduced the "Lead Customer Host" role for similar reasons) and on an intercity train with long distances between stops having someone in each unit who can deal with customer service issues and any safety problems that crop up (person falls over in the toilet etc) is sensible in my view.

A fully crewed double voyager is two train managers and two retail service managers, often supplemented with a first class host on a weekday. For a unit to end up being locked out, at least three turns therefore have to be uncovered, with no train managers or catering staff picking the open turns up off spare or rest day work, and as a last resort no contingent managers picking up the turns either. Caterers don't even need to sign the route, so theoretically you could use a retail service manager or first class host from anywhere on the network.

The question IMO shouldn't be why can't we run with fewer staff, it should be why has the resourcing picture been allowed to get so bad?

So who provides first class service in the second set?

 

[PupCuff]

And doesn't that have to be down to a management that signed up to deliver a certain level of service and has then totally failed to deliver?

That's certainly one possibility. Another would be that all DfT operators have faced spending restrictions over the last few years; is this coming back to bite and the management are doing the best they can with a rubbish hand? I genuinely wouldn't know the answer.

Whereas quite literally they could hire someone off the street, pay minimum wage, and solve the problem - possibly less than the cheapest fare paid by anyone on the train.. let alone the 100 standing passengers.

Again though, in the same vein as arguing that trains should be able to run with just the two staff, why should there be a need for a race to the bottom? The trade unions won't accept a dilution in pay or terms and conditions so you risk triggering a dispute, only paying minimum wage would stop good quality candidates from applying, and you'd be having to shoulder the extra costs of recruiting and training every ten minutes because they'd leave when they got a better paying job elsewhere.

So who provides first class service in the second set?

The Retail Service Manager.

 

[fishwomp]

Again though, in the same vein as arguing that trains should be able to run with just the two staff, why should there be a need for a race to the bottom? The trade unions won't accept a dilution in pay or terms and conditions so you risk triggering a dispute, only paying minimum wage would stop good quality candidates from applying, and you'd be having to shoulder the extra costs of recruiting and training every ten minutes because they'd leave when they got a better paying job elsewhere.

As we've established, this is not a safety critical role, the training requirement is minimal. Should it matter if they're free to leave jobs... All I'm saying is that finding staff is a very fixable problem, and the money is trivial compared to lost business and the other aspects I listed.

You could even hire more retail managers (is this the someone doing the trolley?) during this chaotic few months - presumably selling the tea is supposed to pay the wages and more and can be hired on temporary contract without union caring too much if you pay the same at least.. (that's not the same as zero hours, it's fixed term)..

 

[Bikeman78]

I think criticism of the requirement to have a second staff member is probably a bit of a red herring here to be honest, it isn't only XC who have this requirement (EMR Meridians have the same requirement and GWR introduced the "Lead Customer Host" role for similar reasons) and on an intercity train with long distances between stops having someone in each unit who can deal with customer service issues and any safety problems that crop up (person falls over in the toilet etc) is sensible in my view.

A fully crewed double voyager is two train managers and two retail service managers, often supplemented with a first class host on a weekday. For a unit to end up being locked out, at least three turns therefore have to be uncovered, with no train managers or catering staff picking the open turns up off spare or rest day work, and as a last resort no contingent managers picking up the turns either. Caterers don't even need to sign the route, so theoretically you could use a retail service manager or first class host from anywhere on the network.

The question IMO shouldn't be why can't we run with fewer staff, it should be why has the resourcing picture been allowed to get so bad?

Whilst I broadly agree with all you have written, I don't see how anyone thinks a crush loaded train with half the coaches locked out is sensible. Whilst XC has some long non stop runs, there are usually plenty of intermediate stations that could be used in an emergency for crew to move between sets. 12 car 365s used to run non stop from King's Cross to Biggleswade with just a driver. And I agree about resourcing. I've never been on a pair of IETs with a set locked out.

 

[duffield]

Already during the first two days of the temporary timetable, we have seen additional services being cancelled above those pre-planned and others part-cancelled. Also no evidence of services being strengthened, two consecutive services cancelled between Nottingham and Coleshill Parkway this morning, the following service formed of one single three-carriage Turbostar.

Yes. I was planning to use one of those services from Nottingham to Derby, but I went via East Midlands Parkway instead (which works out pretty well sometimes). There was a two hour gap in the EMR Nottingham to Derby service at this point which really didn't help.

The XC service from Nottingham to Birmingham on Sundays is abysmal even when it's running normally (e.g. first train at 0955, inadequate length, typically crammed). Having the next two services cancelled plus having a bus replacement from Coleshill Parkway must have been a pretty horrendous experience for some people.

Anyhow, I will try to remain optimistic that all these new drivers (plus industrial peace) will finally mean a reliable service starts when the emergency timetable ends.

 

[kkong]

CrossCountry's letter said they were introducing their temporary timetable to provide certainty for passengers, instead of late notice changes.

The letter said that all their services from Edinburgh to/from Aberdeen were being cancelled for the next 13 weeks.

Yet there are CrossCountry services to/from Aberdeen running today and indeed they are shown in the PDF timetables on the their temporary timetable page.

What gives?

 

[TUC]

The problem is that even a relatively small number of drivers who are at, or close to, minimum pension age, as agreed in their scheme, can unbalance a driver depot for months, or years, if they all go at once. Obviously the terms of the deal may dictate back pay and that may influence matters so fewer choose to go. Obviously there's always a certain amount of "mess room talk" about going, but usually that can be safely ignored.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

But drivers approaching pension age are a predictable gap which can/should be planned for well in advance in terms of recruitment, far more so than other staff choosing to leave. If staff at pension age choose to stay, that's a bonus, but the uncertainty should not preclude recruitment.

 

[Starmill]

But drivers approaching pension age are a predictable gap which can/should be planned for well in advance in terms of recruitment, far more so than other staff choosing to leave. If staff at pension age choose to stay, that's a bonus, but the uncertainty should not preclude recruitment.

That's a very idealistic way of looking at it unfortunately.

 

[Redmike]

How can Crosscountry still blame COVID when all restrictions were lifted on 19th July 2021? What have they been doing for the last 3 years to improve the situation?

 

[liamf656]

How can Crosscountry still blame COVID when all restrictions were lifted on 19th July 2021? What have they been doing for the last 3 years to improve the situation?

They claim it's a backlog from the after effects of covid, not the restrictions themselves.

 

[GoneSouth]

Lovely a 4 car all the way from Edinburgh to Plymouth again tonight, no catering, TMS not working so seat reservations knackered, standing room only and an excruciating half hour wait at Derby followed by a meander around Lichfield.

Ok, the engineering work may not be their fault but seriously, they couldn’t run a bath!

They claim it's a backlog from the after effects of covid, not the restrictions themselves.

The whole country is still using this as an excuse instead of getting on with fixing the problem. We are turning into a country of lazy moaners

 

[12LDA28C]

The whole country is still using this as an excuse instead of getting on with fixing the problem. We are turning into a country of lazy moaners

The fact is that there is still an acute shortage of instructors at many TOCs, exacerbated by the lack of willing volunteers during the last two years of industrial action, which means there are huge backlogs in recruitment and training at some Operators. Hopefully once the current ASLEF dispute is resolved, the supply of DIs will start to increase but it will still be a long time until the situation improves.

 

[Kettledrum]

Also let's not forget a contributing factor - that the physical trains don't have gangways and are far too short. This inherently makes the service more vulnerable to staffing issues and overcrowding.

Everything about XC is mediocre.

"mediocre" is not the word that I would use. I would say "inadequate" is a better description

 

[ajp999]

Why is a second member of staff required on XC Voyager's and EMR's Meridians yet both of these operators run doubled-up Turbostars without this requirement - I would have expected a similar requirement on the Class 170's.

 

[XC victim]

I regularly use XC to travel from Banbury to West Yorkshire. The service is absolutely nowhere near as good as pre-Covid (which was atrocious anyway). The services from the south coast to the north east via Doncaster have never really been re-instated and the through services to Leeds completely removed. Last Friday I had to travel from Milton Keynes instead due to CrossCountry services being removed from the timetable.

And catering on services is a joke with most services having no catering and where catering is available it is an extremely limited offering from a static trolley in the crew area of coach F with no announcements. It really feels like they have just given up

 

[Starmill]

Why is a second member of staff required on XC Voyager's and EMR's Meridians yet both of these operators run doubled-up Turbostars without this requirement - I would have expected a similar requirement on the Class 170's.

It's not required by anyone other than CrossCountry management. That's simply what they decided.

 

[XC victim]

I guess they are really worried that people may sit in first class seats without paying for first class tickets. Much better to make sure everyone is crush loaded into a single set

 

[GoneSouth]

And catering on services is a joke with most services having no catering and where catering is available it is an extremely limited offering from a static trolley in the crew area of coach F with no announcements. It really feels like they have just given up

Don’t get me started about the catering, it’s in a terminal decline right now. One fortunate thing about the half hour wait at Derby because of the engineering works was that I could leave the station and find something to eat and a coffee, otherwise it would have been a very long afternoon/evening without a drink!

I admit defeat XC, I’ll be taking my own food and drink in future, you win, no need to provide the tiresome catering service on an 8 hour Cross Country trundle anymore.

I’m sorry to say this but it’s the staff which annoy me as much as anything. Even on a relatively comfortably loaded train a couple of days ago the catering staff couldn’t be bothered to move themselves from the back of the train, or even tell us they were there. No announcements is beyond lazy. Another one last week whizzed by ignoring everybody so I thought it’d catch her on the way back, however she was never to be seen again, hiding in the galley. On a Bristol to Manchester last week we were told no catering until Birmingham, fair enough I’ll get something after that I thought. No trolley arrived, and no announcements, well until Winslow that is when they announced there was a static trolley at the rear of a mostly empty train! When I got there the girl was on her phone and ignored me for 3 minutes. Another one told me he couldn’t serve me just after Worcestershire Parkway because he was getting off in a minute at New Street. Guess what, rest of journey had no catering!

The whole operation needs a kick up the backside, but then it’s always been so, ever since Virgin lost the franchise.

Unrelated I know, but quick question to any XC catering staff (and many of you make a day a brighter place with a coffee and a smile), but are your employers generally making you very miserable in your work. Thanks to those of you who continue to provide a good service, it is appreciated.

 

[D.K.TAYLOR]

Whatever the circumstances are XC services are and will always be abysmal.
Short formed smelly expensive and dirty why change the habit of a lifetime.
Refurb time ha ha You can Polish a turd but it's still a turd

 

[duffield]

Yesterday at Sheffield I boarded the 1856 XC to Bristol, 2x4 coach 220's (1V70 1507 Edinburgh to Bristol). Plenty of space in the rear set, looked a bit cramped in the front set. Of course that was because the rear set was terminating at Derby, where the remaining disgruntled looking passengers hauled their luggage down the platform at Derby to cram into the front set.

Is the rear set detaching and terminating at Derby a very recent development? I seem to remember in the past this might typically happen at Bristol, where it would possibly make sense, rather than just before one of the busiest sections of the route.

 

[XC victim]

Don’t get me started about the catering, it’s in a terminal decline right now. One fortunate thing about the half hour wait at Derby because of the engineering works was that I could leave the station and find something to eat and a coffee, otherwise it would have been a very long afternoon/evening without a drink!

I admit defeat XC, I’ll be taking my own food and drink in future, you win, no need to provide the tiresome catering service on an 8 hour Cross Country trundle anymore.

The whole operation needs a kick up the backside, but then it’s always been so, ever since Virgin lost the franchise.

Unrelated I know, but quick question to any XC catering staff (and many of you make a day a brighter place with a coffee and a smile), but are your employers generally making you very miserable in your work. Thanks to those of you who continue to provide a good service, it is appreciated.

I am assuming it is just a ploy to allow them to remove all catering from XC services as no one uses it anymore.

And too all those who say simply purchase food and drink at the station before you board, it is hard enough boarding a XC train with luggage / young children never mind trying to juggle a hot drink as well. And besides your hot drink soon gets cold on your 3 or 4 hour ride (never mind 8 hours).

 

[ajp999]

Yesterday at Sheffield I boarded the 1856 XC to Bristol, 2x4 coach 220's (1V70 1507 Edinburgh to Bristol). Plenty of space in the rear set, looked a bit cramped in the front set. Of course that was because the rear set was terminating at Derby, where the remaining disgruntled looking passengers hauled their luggage down the platform at Derby to cram into the front set.

Is the rear set detaching and terminating at Derby a very recent development? I seem to remember in the past this might typically happen at Bristol, where it would possibly make sense, rather than just before one of the busiest sections of the route.

This seems to happen quite a bit now I assume to facilitate getting a set back to the depot at Barton-under-Needwood.