For research, can you FOIA DfT for British Rail information?

[jessfdm]

I'm trying to find some documents relating to British Rail (specifically about catering on trains and stations) and was wondering if anyone knew if you can make FOIA requests to Government departments about things that would have been in the remit of their predecessors?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you sure it wouldn't be in the National Archives? Something from that long ago I suspect would likely have been archived by now! That being said I don't see why the DfT wouldn't be subject to FOI for British Rail documents just that they may well not hold them anymore.

 

[jessfdm]

Are you sure it wouldn't be in the National Archives? Something from that long ago I suspect would likely have been archived by now! That being said I don't see why the DfT wouldn't be subject to FOI for British Rail documents just that they may well not hold them anymore.

Been looking there too! There's plenty in here but it's not very well ordered at all and their search is not super helpful in finding stuff, so I wondered if it were worth a shot reaching out to DfT

 

[ainsworth74]

Been looking there too! There's plenty in here but it's not very well ordered at all and their search is not super helpful in finding stuff, so I wondered if it were worth a shot reaching out to DfT

Ah! I suspect that this will fall firmly into the category of "the worst they can do is say no" territory. My gut instinct is that a request for documents dating back to BR will be met with a "We don't hold that information, go to the National Archive". I suppose it's just about possible, if you're very lucky, that the DfT might know the relevant file reference from when it was archived but I suspect that's going to be quite a forlorn hope!

 

[jessfdm]

Cool, yeah I'll drop them a line and see what they say. Trying to find some other sources as best I can, but NRM has basically nothing about on-train catering according to their search engine D:

STEAM in Swindon might have some stuff. After that might have to be Primary research by asking colleuges on the railway who remember British Rail lol

 

[AlterEgo]

What is it you're looking for exactly? Someone here may know where to find it!

 

[LYradial]

some family history research suggests catering was a totally seperate division, British rail hotels, records seem very hard to find, depending on the years in question.

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This is all I can find

British Railways and predecessor railway companies: Hotels and Catering Services: Minutes, Reports, Papers and Miscellaneous Records | The National Archives

The official archive of the UK government. Our vision is to lead and transform information management, guarantee the survival of today's information for tomorrow and bring history to life for everyone.

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk

 

[Magdalia]

A cornerstone of government department file retention is the 30 years rule. Nearly all departmental files more than 30 years old will either be with the National Archives or destroyed.

British Rail privatisation is now almost 30 years ago, and privatisation of Travellers Fare is more than 30 years ago.

British Railways had their own archivist until 1971 and all that they retained is now in the National Archives. There are lots of post 1971 British Railways files in the National Archives too, but it is not so comprehensive as the years up to 1971.

If you want to know which stations and trains had catering then refer to the relevant public timetables.

 

[WesternLancer]

DfT wont have this sort of stuff imho and the hotels division was privatised c 1982. Station catering sold c1988.

There will be stuff in national archives but almost certainly not digital. You’d have to go. BRB minutes that sort of thing.

Maybe post specific questions on the forum.

There have been a few books published over the years on railway catering and hotels if they help.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

some family history research suggests catering was a totally seperate division, British rail hotels, records seem very hard to find, depending on the years in question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

This is all I can find

British Railways and predecessor railway companies: Hotels and Catering Services: Minutes, Reports, Papers and Miscellaneous Records | The National Archives

The official archive of the UK government. Our vision is to lead and transform information management, guarantee the survival of today's information for tomorrow and bring history to life for everyone.

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk

So are you trying to trace an ancestor who may have been a BR catering or hotels employee?

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Worth you getting a copy of this which is £5 on Amazon. A good book by a former senior manager iirc

Mr P A Land

Sauce Supreme: The annihilation of British Transport Hotels Ltd​

 

[LYradial]

DfT wont have this sort of stuff imho and the hotels division was privatised c 1982. Station catering sold c1988.

There will be stuff in national archives but almost certainly not digital. You’d have to go. BRB minutes that sort of thing.

Maybe post specific questions on the forum.

There have been a few books published over the years on railway catering and hotels if they help.

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So are you trying to trace an ancestor who may have been a BR catering or hotels employee?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Worth you getting a copy of this which is £5 on Amazon. A good book by a former senior manager iirc

Mr P A Land

Sauce Supreme: The annihilation of British Transport Hotels Ltd​

Thanks for that, I was actually reseaching for someone else on another forum. We failed

 

[jessfdm]

Thanks everyone! Was hoping there'd be some secret treasure trove beyond the Archives, but alas.

For context I'm researching for a book about food on British Rail(/ways) through the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Might ask some specific questions on here and do some primary research! But I'll do that in a separate thread

 

[Anonymous10]

Ah! I suspect that this will fall firmly into the category of "the worst they can do is say no" territory. My gut instinct is that a request for documents dating back to BR will be met with a "We don't hold that information, go to the National Archive". I suppose it's just about possible, if you're very lucky, that the DfT might know the relevant file reference from when it was archived but I suspect that's going to be quite a forlorn hope!

From someone working at a museum and gallery with a small archive, this material is likely archived. The ordering of which would likely not be available to the dft, all items however should be assigned a individual number corresponding to its location. The method by which to search though, if recorded on card (50/50 if this is the case or digital) may mean searching many terms to locate what you want. However it may also be a bit of pull enough boxes out eventually you will find it too.

Please note museums and archives are usually underfunded and under staffed, the institution I work for currently hold well in excess of 10,000 records each containing anything from 1 to over 100 entries with a total object count, including non accessioned reference material being 100,000 objects under 2 members of collections staff.

I hope this proves useful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Thanks everyone! Was hoping there'd be some secret treasure trove beyond the Archives, but alas.

For context I'm researching for a book about food on British Rail(/ways) through the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Might ask some specific questions on here and do some primary research! But I'll do that in a separate thread

Hi jess, you may be interested in my response.

 

[TheHovisKid]

You can...
Provided it's not vexatious, the material is covered by the FOI and you're asking a public body, and provided that supplying the info isn't excessively onerous (although, you may be given the option of paying a fee to recover the cost)

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks everyone! Was hoping there'd be some secret treasure trove beyond the Archives, but alas.

For context I'm researching for a book about food on British Rail(/ways) through the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Might ask some specific questions on here and do some primary research! But I'll do that in a separate thread

Sounds interesting! Good luck with it.
I did work for Travellers Fare in a very junior capacity for a short period in the mid 1980s. So was at least responsible for making some BR food.

There is also some interesting if briefly covered info about BR catering in latter years in Christian Wolmar’s recent book ‘British Rail - A new history’

 

[Magdalia]

For context I'm researching for a book about food on British Rail(/ways) through the time

On train catering is usually recognised as being started by the Great Northern Railway in 1879.

The 100th anniversary of this was celebrated in 1979.

A book, The Restaurant Car, was published by David and Charles in 1979, author Geoffrey Kitchenside. I have never looked at it and I have no idea whether it will tell you anything useful.

Various contemporary publications also covered the anniversary. My copy of Railway Magazine September 1979 has 2 separate articles related to the anniversary, both including a menu. Other magazines published in 1979 probably had similar coverage.

 

[WesternLancer]

On train catering is usually recognised as being started by the Great Northern Railway in 1879.

The 100th anniversary of this was celebrated in 1979.

A book, The Restaurant Car, was published by David and Charles in 1979, author Geoffrey Kitchenside. I have never looked at it and I have no idea whether it will tell you anything useful.

Various contemporary publications also covered the anniversary. My copy of Railway Magazine September 1979 has 2 separate articles related to the anniversary, both including a menu. Other magazines published in 1979 probably had similar coverage.

When you think about it there’s quite a story to be told since 1979.

 

[Rescars]

There are various books about the hotels, "British Railway Hotels" by Oliver Carter is one. For train catering, you may be able find a copy of "Dinner in the Diner" by Neil Wooler. "Pullman" by Julian Morrell tells the story of Pullman in the UK. Peter Land, the final chairman of BTH, told the tale of privatisation in "Sauce Supreme - the annihilation of British Transport Hotels". Enjoy your holiday reading!

If you want the hotel experience for real, many of the establishments are still operating, some with rather more style than others following many changes of ownership. AIUI, the Midland at Morecambe has been restored very sympathetically. Finding a recipe for traditional Midland Railway "Brown Windsor soup" may prove more challenging though!

 

[Trainfan2019]

Might be a bit of a long shot but could try a freedom of information request to Network Rail. I know they weren't around in British Rail days and are only responsible for the railway infrastructure but they do have an extensive archive. I have made a few requests for information and documents for current and closed stations, it is surprising what they have got available. Some documents are not allowed to go public for obvious reasons and some documents have to have certain information redacted before being viewable by the public.

A good tip is not to ask for a wide ranging request like 'please can you advise a full list of all the documents you have relating to British Rail catering' as this would likely get a reply saying the request would outweigh the amount of time and resources available per request. Narrowing it down to something more streamlined usually helps e.g British Rail catering outlets on stations during the 1980s - example only.

It's certainly worth a try as you never know, they just might have something. Hope this helps in your search.

 

[Clarence Yard]

NR would not have anything on catering and neither would the DfT have anything detailed either. I wouldn’t waste any time contacting those two organisations.

The best place to go is the National Archives but the detail you may be after may not now exist as not everything was archived.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks everyone! Was hoping there'd be some secret treasure trove beyond the Archives, but alas.

For context I'm researching for a book about food on British Rail(/ways) through the time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

Might ask some specific questions on here and do some primary research! But I'll do that in a separate thread

Occurs to me that some BTF films feature footage of railway food. Blue Pullman film being the main example that comes to mind.

But you’ve not really expanded on what it is about the food you want to know. Eg difference between buffet/restaurant/griddle cars or menus or what it tasted like etc.

Sound like an interesting topic though.

 

[Wolfie]

You can...
Provided it's not vexatious, the material is covered by the FOI and you're asking a public body, and provided that supplying the info isn't excessively onerous (although, you may be given the option of paying a fee to recover the cost)

FOI searches involve people's time which can be and is estimated. If it is over a certain level (the appropriate limit) - £600 for Central Government, £450 for other public bodies - the request can be denied or the amount over the appropriate limit billed (payment in advance is expected). The costs include a manpower calculation, photocopying etc.

 

[En]

Ah! I suspect that this will fall firmly into the category of "the worst they can do is say no" territory. My gut instinct is that a request for documents dating back to BR will be met with a "We don't hold that information, go to the National Archive". I suppose it's just about possible, if you're very lucky, that the DfT might know the relevant file reference from when it was archived but I suspect that's going to be quite a forlorn hope!

or ' because, IF we hold it , it'll be on paper / microfiche the cost / time to retrieve limits are exceeded so we can refuse it '

 

[ScottGallagher]

A while ago I did a FOI request for the names of the shortlisted bidders for the original round of Franchises in the 90s. I was quite specific and helpful in my wording to them mentioning OPRAF etc and was told no as they didn't hold that information or at least not readily.

 

[Alfie1014]

I'm trying to find some documents relating to British Rail (specifically about catering on trains and stations) and was wondering if anyone knew if you can make FOIA requests to Government departments about things that would have been in the remit of their predecessors?

I think it would be very unlikely that the DfT would have anything like this, at the disbanding of the SRA they were only interested in ‘current’ documents relating to franchises and the SRAs statutory functions. Everything else was supposed to be archived, though I’m not convinced that this was done with the rigour that it probably deserved. Ironically prior to its disbandment there was serious discussion about setting up a comprehensive library within the SRA for important historical documents in addition to what might be available in the National Archives!

 

[jessfdm]

Sounds interesting! Good luck with it.
I did work for Travellers Fare in a very junior capacity for a short period in the mid 1980s. So was at least responsible for making some BR food.

There is also some interesting if briefly covered info about BR catering in latter years in Christian Wolmar’s recent book ‘British Rail - A new history’

Oh wow, I mean if you have any recollection of what you were cooking and how to cooked it that would be great since the book is taking the form of a tongue in cheek Cookbook!

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A while ago I did a FOI request for the names of the shortlisted bidders for the original round of Franchises in the 90s. I was quite specific and helpful in my wording to them mentioning OPRAF etc and was told no as they didn't hold that information or at least not readily.

I actually might have found what you're looking for today, what were they bidding for exactly?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2024 ==

Occurs to me that some BTF films feature footage of railway food. Blue Pullman film being the main example that comes to mind.

But you’ve not really expanded on what it is about the food you want to know. Eg difference between buffet/restaurant/griddle cars or menus or what it tasted like etc.

Sound like an interesting topic though.

I'll definitely give the films a look, might give some clues about the preparation

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh wow, I mean if you have any recollection of what you were cooking and how to cooked it that would be great since the book is taking the form of a tongue in cheek Cookbook!

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I actually might have found what you're looking for today, what were they bidding for exactly?

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I'll definitely give the films a look, might give some clues about the preparation

I can certainly recall what we prepared though it wasn’t chef related food that would have been done compared with say on train restaurant cars or pullmans.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I actually might have found what you're looking for today, what were they bidding for exactly?

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It was the shortlisted bidders for each of the original franchises, there are a handful I know such as Stagecoach bidding for Chiltern and Connex bidding for North London Railways but lost out to M40 and National Express respectively.

 

[jessfdm]

I can certainly recall what we prepared though it wasn’t chef related food that would have been done compared with say on train restaurant cars or pullmans.

Sure thing, a large part of the book is also how to cook the gourmet stuff

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Putting a scotch egg recipe in after all

 

[Titfield]

Contact Prue Leith! (she is still around).

 

[Rescars]

A few thoughts / hazy recollections. In the 1970s, cooking in Mark 1 vehicles (RBR, RKB, RK, etc) relied almost exclusively on propane gas (grills, ovens, hobs, Stills boilers, etc). No microwaves or freezers, so no ice cream. Most restaurant car food was prepared fresh, as were buffet car sandwiches. Pre-peeled potatoes were available, but needed final trimming by hand. It was wise to slice onions and tomatoes whilst the train was stationary. Saute potatoes were popular because chips were not possible following the ban on deep fat fryers, which although strapped down to stove tops were heated by a naked flame and could cause horrendous accidents if they ignited or broke loose. Toast was cooked under the grill.

With most meals silver served, fried eggs had to be served on a half slice of toast to stop them sliding off the service tray. If you stretch to roast beef, the Yorkshires were cooked in trays and sliced into portions when done.

If you want to include something a bit unusual, I suggest you include the use of "pomme", a singularly unpleasant variety of instant mashed potato which was carried as a precaution in case of emergencies - happily seldom required!