• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future of the GWR electrification

Status
Not open for further replies.

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
Also used to justify the cancelling of the Windermere electrification, because of the scarring of the Lake District landscape (conveniently forgetting that the existing electrified WCML seems to blend in quite nicely now, albeit admittedly with a less obtrusive system).

The Windermere branch doesn't really go through exceptional landscape, anyway. It's pleasant enough but I can't see that installing OHLE would be a major aesthetic crisis.

Same with Oxford for that matter. It should be noted that there are some high-voltage pylons close to the line on the southern approach to Oxford; the OHLE will be relatively insignificant in comparison.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,585
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
The potential impact of OHLE on Oxford was I believe raised earlier; The railway goes nowhere near any part of the historic city (unless Port Meadow is classed as such!) and the reduction of diesel traction in the area will far outweigh other considerations.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
That's a decent loading for a train a day (or maybe 4 trains in 5 days), so I suspect people will be interested but will depend on where the other ends of the flows are and what paths are available.
Iwould assume it’s a variety of raw materials from a variety of places, and the batteries will be going to various places. And they probably prefer a truck load at a time at both ends.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,897
The potential impact of OHLE on Oxford was I believe raised earlier; The railway goes nowhere near any part of the historic city (unless Port Meadow is classed as such!) and the reduction of diesel traction in the area will far outweigh other considerations.
I think this thread is the first time anyone has suggested Oxford being sensitive to wiring on aesthetic grounds.
Oxford was deferred along with Bristol as resignalling and track layout changes were required before the wires could go up. Then when the budget crunch hit it was relatively easy to cancel as not on the core.
But once Network Rail finally finish messing around with Botley Road, there’s nothing bar money stopping electrification.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,438
Location
Somerset
I think this thread is the first time anyone has suggested Oxford being sensitive to wiring on aesthetic grounds.
Oxford was deferred along with Bristol as resignalling and track layout changes were required before the wires could go up. Then when the budget crunch hit it was relatively easy to cancel as not on the core.
But once Network Rail finally finish messing around with Botley Road, there’s nothing bar money stopping electrification.
Don’t think either Oxford or Bristol were ever actually cancelled - just deferred sine die.
 

blueberry11

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2023
Messages
162
Location
Norwich
I think this thread is the first time anyone has suggested Oxford being sensitive to wiring on aesthetic grounds.
Oxford was deferred along with Bristol as resignalling and track layout changes were required before the wires could go up. Then when the budget crunch hit it was relatively easy to cancel as not on the core.
But once Network Rail finally finish messing around with Botley Road, there’s nothing bar money stopping electrification.
I think that was the initial reason for deferring the Bristol/Oxford electrification. But it looks like the pandemic has made it even more delayed. I can see bridges on both stretches that were modified to give enough clearance for wires, but never came. I can also see a few foundations just north of Didcot and west of Chippenham, although the wires stop just east of it. I even see some 'Danger, live wires below' signs on the bridges. In other words, some preliminary/preparation work has been done to the now-deferred sections.

The branches to Windsor and Henley haven't really been talked about since they were also deferred, but not for the same reason as to Bristol/Oxford. Maybe they're trialling a battery powered 230 like they're doing to Greenford as a short term solution.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,617
Location
Northampton
I think that was the initial reason for deferring the Bristol/Oxford electrification. But it looks like the pandemic has made it even more delayed. I can see bridges on both stretches that were modified to give enough clearance for wires, but never came. I can also see a few foundations just north of Didcot and west of Chippenham, although the wires stop just east of it. I even see some 'Danger, live wires below' signs on the bridges. In other words, some preliminary/preparation work has been done to the now-deferred sections.
Chippenham-Bristol Temple Meads and Didcot-Oxford were in delivery and then given an emergency stop, to all intents and purposes. The Bristol stuff is restarting (slowly) now that East junction has been relaid.
The branches to Windsor and Henley haven't really been talked about since they were also deferred, but not for the same reason as to Bristol/Oxford. Maybe they're trialling a battery powered 230 like they're doing to Greenford as a short term solution.
I think they were de-scoped quite quickly. I haven't seen anything suggesting the Thames Valley Branches have any firm plans for stock replacement, although they're excellent candidates for it.
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
6,126
Chippenham-Bristol Temple Meads and Didcot-Oxford were in delivery and then given an emergency stop, to all intents and purposes. The Bristol stuff is restarting (slowly) now that East junction has been relaid.
In what way is the Bristol stuff restarting?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,617
Location
Northampton
In what way is the Bristol stuff restarting?
The Combined Authority and NR are looking to wire the Filton Bank, there's a thread on here with the minutes of a meeting in January.

Edit: found it
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
6,126
The Combined Authority and NR are looking to wire the Filton Bank, there's a thread on here with the minutes of a meeting in January.

Edit: found it
Hmmm. So the local combined authority is doing a study to decide whether to spend £100m that the last govt allocated to the region for local transport projects, and may well not still be available, to see whether electrification could be possible using heroic assumptions in terms of reducing costs.

I’m not holding my breath.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,187
Location
West Wiltshire
The last time I came up that line I was amazed by the number of mast foundations that had been planted - they seemed to go on for miles. It was more than just a few!
West of Chippenham, lots of masts without wires too,
examples in these google street views


 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,152
They really do need to crack on and get Filton to Temple Meads wired along with Temple Meads through Bath to Chippenham. Bristol & Bath are places with high air pollution due to all the traffic and being in a valley so having trains running on diesel does not help. Not only does the air pollution affect humans but also the limestone on the historic buildings. I also wonder how bad the air is that seeps into carriages when going through the long Box Tunnel? Do the drivers shut off sucking in external air when in tunnels?

There is also the issue of ordering new trains for non London routes that traverse the Bristol / Bath area. Surely, with these lines wired they can at least order a new fleet of bi-modes or even have pure electric stoppers for say Cardiff > Newport > Bristol > Bath > Chippenham > Swindon > Oxford?
 

Sly Old Fox

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2008
Messages
448
Location
England
They really do need to crack on and get Filton to Temple Meads wired along with Temple Meads through Bath to Chippenham. Bristol & Bath are places with high air pollution due to all the traffic and being in a valley so having trains running on diesel does not help. Not only does the air pollution affect humans but also the limestone on the historic buildings. I also wonder how bad the air is that seeps into carriages when going through the long Box Tunnel? Do the drivers shut off sucking in external air when in tunnels?

Drivers have no control whatsoever with regards to switching on and off external air intake.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,617
Location
Northampton
They really do need to crack on and get Filton to Temple Meads wired along with Temple Meads through Bath to Chippenham. Bristol & Bath are places with high air pollution due to all the traffic and being in a valley so having trains running on diesel does not help. Not only does the air pollution affect humans but also the limestone on the historic buildings.
This is indeed a big problem, especially as some authorities have recently been found liable for air quality.
I also wonder how bad the air is that seeps into carriages when going through the long Box Tunnel? Do the drivers shut off sucking in external air when in tunnels?
I suspect Box tunnel isn't sufficiently long to cause a problem. Certainly on my 165 between Bristol and Cardiff the hopper windows were left open through the Severn Tunnel.
There is also the issue of ordering new trains for non London routes that traverse the Bristol / Bath area. Surely, with these lines wired they can at least order a new fleet of bi-modes or even have pure electric stoppers for say Cardiff > Newport > Bristol > Bath > Chippenham > Swindon > Oxford?
Whey would you run Cardiff to Oxford via Bath? I could imagine a Swindon-Parkway via Bath, or a Cardiff-Bath (if suitable terminating options can be found) but Cardiff-Oxford would be via Parkway and Swindon direct surely
 

Wyrleybart

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
2,633
Location
South Staffordshire
Don’t think either Oxford or Bristol were ever actually cancelled - just deferred sine die.
That is how I also understand it to be.
THE GWEP was massively overbudget and Oxford was struggling to cope with the stopping and through traffic as welll as the shunts. The plan to rebuild Oxford (extra platform) gave the excuse to put the brake on, then covid hit.

Covid is now a memory, traffic is back and booming, and once Oxford has been rebuilt there will be no excuse not to electrify apart from ££££. AIUI the plan was / is to take the 25kV through Oxford to Wolvercot juction so that Oxford terminators can run up to Wolvercot and onto the branch to changes ends and return to the station - all on electric.

What is really needed is 25kV from the bay platforms up towards Bletchley which opens to door for battery electric operation to Bedford and Milton Keynes (battery recharge) to MKC and back, and battery options for Chiltern into Marylebone (more recharging rails / wires.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,438
Location
Somerset
This is indeed a big problem, especially as some authorities have recently been found liable for air quality.

I suspect Box tunnel isn't sufficiently long to cause a problem. Certainly on my 165 between Bristol and Cardiff the hopper windows were left open through the Severn Tunnel.

Whey would you run Cardiff to Oxford via Bath? I could imagine a Swindon-Parkway via Bath, or a Cardiff-Bath (if suitable terminating options can be found) but Cardiff-Oxford would be via Parkway and Swindon direct surely
A stopping service would logically go via Temple Meads and Bath. It wouldn’t be intended for through passengers from Cardiff to Oxford (though it would of course be the only option that involve changing). No point in running a stopper on the Badminton route as the fasts stops everywhere anyway and there’s little likelihood of any stations being added (as opposed to Saltford, Corsgam, Royal WB et al)
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
4,319
Location
Swansea
A stopping service would logically go via Temple Meads and Bath. It wouldn’t be intended for through passengers from Cardiff to Oxford (though it would of course be the only option that involve changing). No point in running a stopper on the Badminton route as the fasts stops everywhere anyway and there’s little likelihood of any stations being added (as opposed to Saltford, Corsgam, Royal WB et al)
The route makes sense as a combination of local journeys.

It would also allow the Portsmouth Harbour to be cut back to Bristol Temple Meads to remove diesel under wires. Appreciate that some will moan about removal of direct journeys, but this proposed via Bath train offers same platform at Bath as well as Bristol Temple Meads.

Conscious this is really about the actual electrification. However, irrespective of the wisdom of the specific suggestions, the existence of opportunities to remove diesel under the wires is a positive argument for electrification.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,152
I suggested an electric stopping service from Cardiff to Oxford via Temple Meads & Bath as this would act as a link between all the intermediate stations such as for example, Severn Tunnel Junction to Keynsham & allow for longer direct journeys such as Chippenham to Filton or Temple Meads to Oxford. Clearly, south Wales to Oxford passengers would go direct to Didcot & change.

Having the stoppers, also allows the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains to run through the area calling at main places only. These trains should as I said earlier, be bi-mode and as such, further justifies the cost of getting these lines electrified.

Severn Tunnel: In HST days, I could smell the diesel fumes inside the coaches - not helped by people leaving open windows at the non electric doors.

I can’t see the public shutting the hopper windows on the 165/6’s when they go through long tunnels. I think that in the days of steam, passengers would close the sliding windows when in tunnels.

As air pollution in Bristol is so bad, the Council have set up a zone where polluting cars have to pay a fee if they enter the zone. This has caught many people out as it includes the A4 in the Avon gorge - a route used by motorists to reach the out of the way Airport from the M5 and Severn Bridges. All the more reason crack on & electrify the railways in the Bristol area.
 

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
3,324
Location
London
The route makes sense as a combination of local journeys.

It would also allow the Portsmouth Harbour to be cut back to Bristol Temple Meads to remove diesel under wires. Appreciate that some will moan about removal of direct journeys, but this proposed via Bath train offers same platform at Bath as well as Bristol Temple Meads.

Conscious this is really about the actual electrification. However, irrespective of the wisdom of the specific suggestions, the existence of opportunities to remove diesel under the wires is a positive argument for electrification.
I don’t think we’d ever see this Cardiff to Oxford service as described. There is no point in running all the way to Oxford with a stopper, as mentioned taking existing services would be far faster and it would take up valuable space at Oxford, even post rebuild. The soon to be trialed Bristol to Oxford is far more important.

I think there’s a possibility If Filton Bank was electrified that the Portsmouth Cardiff would be split, although such a plan might require the Cardiff side to be given to TfW unless St Philip’s Marsh was upgraded.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,300
It has been mentioned before, but I cannot recall where or when; As you say not in this thread, and maybe not even on this Forum!
I can believe the Oxford North objectors raising the issue of gantries alongside Port Meadow, but that would have to be up towards Wolvercote, and the wires might still not get that far. But they tried every nimby trick in the book to stop Chiltern Evergreen improvements, and would almost certainly object to wiring of EWR, just because they can…
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,144
Location
Leeds
Is there a thread for the Oxford station? I had a search and couldn't find one
Currently this one:

 

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,606
Currently this one:

Thanks!
 

TurboMan

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2022
Messages
422
Location
UK
I also wonder how bad the air is that seeps into carriages when going through the long Box Tunnel? Do the drivers shut off sucking in external air when in tunnels?
On the 80x fleet the GPS co-ordinates of tunnels are included in the train service database, so the air intakes close automatically on approach to a tunnel and open again on exiting. The driver can also do it manually via the TMS.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,152
On the 80x fleet the GPS co-ordinates of tunnels are included in the train service database, so the air intakes close automatically on approach to a tunnel and open again on exiting. The driver can also do it manually via the TMS.
That’s really good to know. I always stop external air entering my car when in heavy stop/start traffic. (The air con is kept on but re-circulating the internal air until back into cleaner air).
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,719
Location
Watford
That’s really good to know. I always stop external air entering my car when in heavy stop/start traffic. (The air con is kept on but re-circulating the internal air until back into cleaner air).
What - no balises? :D
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,438
Location
Somerset
I don’t think we’d ever see this Cardiff to Oxford service as described. There is no point in running all the way to Oxford with a stopper, as mentioned taking existing services would be far faster and it would take up valuable space at Oxford, even post rebuild. The soon to be trialed Bristol to Oxford is far more important.
Given the fact that between Bath and Didcot the stopping patterns of a “stopper” and the soon-to-be-launched service would be the same, Im not quite sure what the massive disadvantage of the stopper would be to anywhere except Bristol. I suspect the main market for the new trial service is between Oxford and Swindon, with a (tourism-based) subsidiary flow between Bath and Oxford. There are, however at least three settlements whose case for a station is stymied at least in part by the lack of a suitable service to stop at them (Corsham, Royal Wootton Bassett and Wantage). I imagine a lot of the demand at the last of these would be towards Oxford.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top