Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[joieman]

It probably doesn't help Plaxton, that their main market niche is in "bog standard" coaches, where they are vulnerable to cheaper Chinese (and other low cost) competition, where some of the surviving European manufacturers sell more upmarket and expensive vehicles, and can thus survive on lower volumes?

I always thought the Plaxton Elite was a more luxury model, mainly for the styling. Because after the Elite you have the ordinary-looking, long-running Panther, and then the slab-fronted Leopard.

 

[scosutsut]

I suspect the issue at Plaxton is, as others have pointed out, nearly the entire line up is dated and in need of complete overhaul.

In the push to electrifying bus fleets, and feeling they have better opportunities there, is it not possible that the business case of sinking the money into development of brand new coaches doesn't give them enough confidence that they'll get a return on their investment and thus they've thrown in the towel (regardless of how they frame it!)

 

[Energy]

I always thought the Plaxton Elite was a more luxury model, mainly for the styling. Because after the Elite you have the ordinary-looking, long-running Panther, and then the slab-fronted Leopard.

That was the intended order, with the Leopard being the cheapest. Luxury now depends more on the vehicle spec than the model itself. Ironically plenty of ex-National Express Elites have been converted to 3+2 or had their toilet removed and are used as standard vehicles by new operators.

Plaxton is affected by Volvo's move from the B11R to the B13R, only B8R-based Panthers and Leopards are available. Other vehicles can be had on the B13R if a sufficient order is placed. This is particularly a problem for the Panorama (double deck) and the Panther LE which are fairly niche and only introduced relatively recently. The latter could be fairly popular if offered ~12m now that PSVAR is a bigger concern.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

That was the intended order, with the Leopard being the cheapest. Luxury now depends more on the vehicle spec than the model itself. Ironically plenty of ex-National Express Elites have been converted to 3+2 or had their toilet removed and are used as standard vehicles by new operators.

Plaxton is affected by Volvo's move from the B11R to the B13R, only B8R-based Panthers and Leopards are available. Other vehicles can be had on the B13R if a sufficient order is placed. This is particularly a problem for the Panorama (double deck) and the Panther LE which are fairly niche and only introduced relatively recently. The latter could be fairly popular if offered ~12m now that PSVAR is a bigger concern.

If any place was to consider a 12m Plaxton Panther LE, they may as well just buy a 12.2/12.9m MCV EvoRa..

 

[ClydeCoaster]

I think the gap between standard and premium coaches is getting smaller, most new ones are delivered with a toilet and PSVAR.

However, Plaxton/Volvo did tend to get smaller customers who maybe order 1 or 2 coaches every few years rather than large orders. I suspect Yutong is chipping away at operators with less money, Volvo's 9700/9900 eating into operators with a strictly Volvo fleet and many choosing used vehicles.

If you've ever been on a Tourismo Access (I'm thinking specifically the Aircoach examples in Dublin) then you can definitely see the gap between 'standard' and 'premium' getting smaller!

Yutong are certainly making hay in the coach sector at the moment, particularly with Flixbus operators now that the 9700/9900 are dead. I suspect McGill's knew that the game was up for 9700 - they certainly knew the lead times had become immeasurable. I read an article about Hollinshead Coaches taking a new GT12 noting that their "loyalty to another manufacturer would likely have continued [read Volvo, given their fleet] if there was availability".

Some of Plaxton's competitors are getting long in the tooth now too. The Scania Higer Touring, which seems to be having a bit of a renaissance, and the VDL Futura are in desperate need for some sort of facelift.

Given National Express have walked away from the Altano and are looking for an alternative high capacity vehicle, with discussions in play with other manufacturers, could the Elite-i make a come back?

 

[jammy36]

VDL Futura are in desperate need for some sort of facelift.

I believe that VDL are looking to do more than just facelift the Future 2 as they have been developing a new coach platform (their project 'Vision') which is to underpin the new Futura 3. The Futura 3 was slated for launch Q4 this financial year (but may have slipped).

The new Futura 3 range doesn't include a double deck version and I believe the intention is to use the acquired VanHool model platform to cover this sector of the market (rather than facelift the FDD2). Otherwise I understand that the former VanHool product range is to be substantially trimmed back by VDL to essentially only retain those models that don't have an equivalent Futura offering.

 

[GusB]

I believe that VDL are looking to do more than just facelift the Future 2 as they have been developing a new coach platform (their project 'Vision') which is to underpin the new Futura 3. The Futura 3 was slated for launch Q4 this financial year (but may have slipped).

The new Futura 3 range doesn't include a double deck version and I believe the intention is to use the acquired VanHool model platform to cover this sector of the market (rather than facelift the FDD2). Otherwise I understand that the former VanHool product range is to be substantially trimmed back by VDL to essentially only retain those models that don't have an equivalent Futura offering.

What's the source for this?

 

[jammy36]

What's the source for this?

There is no single source. VDL have been playing their cards 'close to their chest' and information in the public domain is limited. There has been a press sneak preview but not all the information shared there has been published. However, this Bus and Coach Buyer article confirms VDL's intention to launch a new Futura https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/next-generation-vdl-futura-prototype-revealed/. VDL have also posted a YouTube teaser video - Vision Driver refers the the project development codename that I referred to above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13gtjXcqUUM&ved=2ahUKEwjY0o3lhJ-HAxVjV0EAHcXwAD84ChC3AnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Cxu8lgvHQ6leen4JpWOE0.

In terms of VDLs intention for the acquired VanHool range and overlaps with their Futura range this is alluded to in this Route One article https://www.route-one.net/news/van-hool-t-range-in-long-term-doubt-as-vdl-considering-options/

 

[Snow1964]

Stagecoach London has ordered 41 buses from Alexander Dennis

41 next-generation Alexander Dennis electric buses destined for London with Stagecoach order | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, today confirmed the first order from a London operator for its next-generation electric buses. Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers...

www.alexander-dennis.com

Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers in early 2025 for routes operated on behalf of the capital’s transport authority Transport for London (TfL).

The next generation of Alexander Dennis electric buses meets the latest iterations of TfL’s pioneering Bus Safety Standard. Alexander Dennis was the first manufacturer to receive a positive result from independent impact testing of the buses’ revised front geometry, which protects vulnerable road users and improves direct vision for drivers.

In London specification, the next-generation Enviro400EV is 10.5m long and can accommodate up to 62 seated passengers. The Enviro100EV “big small bus” fits TfL’s smallest class of single deckers, providing 21 seats in vehicle that can navigate narrow residential streets thanks to its short 8.5m length and narrow 2.35m width.

With benchmark energy efficiency of 0.67kWh/km over the UK Bus Cycle for the Enviro400EV and 0.54kWh/km for the Enviro100EV, plus class-leading warrantable energy throughput of up to 1.6GWh and 1.2GWh respectively, Alexander Dennis’ next-generation electric buses have been designed to go further for longer at lower cost of ownership

 

[GusB]

Stagecoach London has ordered 41 buses from Alexander Dennis

41 next-generation Alexander Dennis electric buses destined for London with Stagecoach order | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, today confirmed the first order from a London operator for its next-generation electric buses. Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers...

www.alexander-dennis.com

Already posted here:

London Buses Discussion

I think the difference will be that there is no needless antagonism between TfL/the Mayor and central government, that played well with the outer London//cab drivers/car driving voters. I don't think even the most fervent supporters of the new government imagine there will be mythical magic...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Busman84]

Unfortunately I think this E100 EV will be a bus where every bump is felt and will have lots of rattles.
Suppose to be an E200 EV based on smaller wheels which will be the same. BYD models had the larger wheels and perhaps heavier chassis too and ride a good bit better.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Unfortunately I think this E100 EV will be a bus where every bump is felt and will have lots of rattles.
Suppose to be an E200 EV based on smaller wheels which will be the same. BYD models had the larger wheels and perhaps heavier chassis too and ride a good bit better.

Have you been on an E100 EV?

 

[CBlue]

Unfortunately I think this E100 EV will be a bus where every bump is felt and will have lots of rattles.
Suppose to be an E200 EV based on smaller wheels which will be the same. BYD models had the larger wheels and perhaps heavier chassis too and ride a good bit better.

Admittedly I've only travelled on one once...but I did have the misfortune of boarding a BYD E200EV outside Victoria station in London a few years ago. For a bus about a year old the prevalence of rattles and poor ride quality were rather disappointing. Heavier chassis and bigger wheels doesn't necessarily mean better built....

 

[Goldfish62]

Admittedly I've only travelled on one once...but I did have the misfortune of boarding a BYD E200EV outside Victoria station in London a few years ago. For a bus about a year old the prevalence of rattles and poor ride quality were rather disappointing. Heavier chassis and bigger wheels doesn't necessarily mean better built....

You can blame ADL for that. Newer ones are better and for me the BYD ride quality is unbeatable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

Unfortunately I think this E100 EV will be a bus where every bump is felt and will have lots of rattles.
Suppose to be an E200 EV based on smaller wheels which will be the same. BYD models had the larger wheels and perhaps heavier chassis too and ride a good bit better.

We'll have to see. Generally the ride quality of EVs is superior to diesels and hopefully ADL will follow suit.

 

[Mikw]

You can blame ADL for that. Newer ones are better and for me the BYD ride quality is unbeatable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==


We'll have to see. Generally the ride quality of EVs is superior to diesels and hopefully ADL will follow suit.

Hopefully so. I've been on the smallest Youtong, i think it's the E9, and that rode very well, with no discernible rattles to speak of.
On a side not i was Wright "Kite" the other day and sat next to the emergency exit, it was rattling. As a survivor of many Streetlites over the year i feel i have to ask : What is it that Wright do that can't make a quiet emergency exit?

 

[Busman84]

Wrights used to use heavy duty emergency doors and the materials on the lock etc were also good. Disappointing to hear the Kite is using cheap crap that was in the Streetlight.

In answer to above not been on an E100 EV and is there actually any in service?

Also BYD E200s ride well (perhaps due to larger wheels) but the poor build quality from ADL means there is rattles within the vehicle.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hopefully so. I've been on the smallest Youtong, i think it's the E9, and that rode very well, with no discernible rattles to speak of.
On a side not i was Wright "Kite" the other day and sat next to the emergency exit, it was rattling. As a survivor of many Streetlites over the year i feel i have to ask : What is it that Wright do that can't make a quiet emergency exit?

I've noticed that issue on Streetlites as well. Both Streetlites and E200s are very noisy and rattly. The MMC E200s are quite a bit better but the "classic" ones have to be some of the least comfortable buses in service in the country.

MCV Evora bodywork seems much more solidly built. Optare/Switch also seem a bit less plagued with rattles than Wright and ADL, but have they actually delivered anything lately?

 

[joieman]

MCV Evora bodywork seems much more solidly built. Optare/Switch also seem a bit less plagued with rattles than Wright and ADL, but have they actually delivered anything lately?

Optare have restarted production of the diesel Solo SR following an order for fifty or sixty of them from Stagecoach.
Some Optares I've been on have horrible vibrations. Arriva Midlands 2949 was particularly bad. I wonder if converting them to electric power would rid them of the vibrations.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Optare have restarted production of the diesel Solo SR following an order for fifty or sixty of them from Stagecoach.
Some Optares I've been on have horrible vibrations. Arriva Midlands 2949 was particularly bad. I wonder if converting them to electric power would rid them of the vibrations.

Stagecoach's order is for 118.

 

[MotCO]

I've noticed that issue on Streetlites as well. Both Streetlites and E200s are very noisy and rattly. The MMC E200s are quite a bit better but the "classic" ones have to be some of the least comfortable buses in service in the country.

MCV Evora bodywork seems much more solidly built. Optare/Switch also seem a bit less plagued with rattles than Wright and ADL, but have they actually delivered anything lately?

Some Switch Solos have recently entered service with Stagecoach in London

 

[TheManWho]

Some Switch Solos have recently entered service with Stagecoach in London

They are Switch Metrocities rather, than Solos

 

[Energy]

They are Switch Metrocities rather, than Solos

IIRC the Metrocities are the only electric buses meeting the TfL capacity standard of 45 people in a sub 9m bus.

 

[Mikey C]

Have the issues with the electric Metrodecker been resolved, as they've not been ordered by anyone for several years now?

 

[Goldfish62]

Have the issues with the electric Metrodecker been resolved, as they've not been ordered by anyone for several years now?

The issues were a design fault with one specific batch, but as none of the Switch products have a frontal design compliant with TfL specs as yet don't expect any more to be ordered for the foreseeable future.

The only reason GAL (Go Ahead London) ordered them for the 200 was because at the time the only alternative was the BYD E400EV which had too long a wheelbase for a couple of junctions on the route.

 

[MotCO]

Have the issues with the electric Metrodecker been resolved, as they've not been ordered by anyone for several years now?

Me 14 and 15 ventured out for one day at the start of the month, but nothing since.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

, but as none of the Switch products have a frontal design compliant with TfL specs as yet don't expect any more to be ordered for the foreseeable future.

The frontal design of the 200's was different (more ugly) to previous Metrodeckers, so I thought it was a compliant front.

 

[Goldfish62]

Me 14 and 15 ventured out for one day at the start of the month, but nothing since.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==


The frontal design of the 200's was different (more ugly) to previous Metrodeckers, so I thought it was a compliant front.

That design element was to cover the wiper spindles.

The front needs to be raked and curved at the wings, plus a deeper windscreen. That's why the E400EV, Electroliner and to a lesser extent the Volvo BZL have a similar look.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The only reason GAL ordered them for the 200 was because at the time the only alternative was the BYD E400EV which had too long a wheelbase for a couple of junctions on the route.

As someone who doesn't live in London, this just sounds strange, especially since the BYD E400MMC EV is a relatively short vehicle anyway. What are the length options for the BYD E400 versus the Metrodecker?

 

[Goldfish62]

As someone who doesn't live in London, this just sounds strange, especially since the BYD E400MMC EV is a relatively short vehicle anyway. What are the length options for the BYD E400 versus the Metrodecker?

The BYD E400EV is certainly not short. It's a comparative monster. It's 10.9m long and with the rear axle set unusually far back the wheelbase is the same as on a standard 12m bus, so it's even less manouverable than a Borismaster. A shorter version was offered somewhat late in the day, which no one ordered.

The ADL E400EV (London version), MetroDecker and Streetdeck Electroliner are all around 10.4 to 10.5m, with a normal length rear overhang.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The BYD E400EV is certainly not short. It's a comparative monster. It's 10.9m long and with the rear axle set unusually far back the wheelbase is the same as on a standard 12m bus, so it's even less manouverable than a Borismaster. A shorter version was offered somewhat late in the day, which no one ordered.

The ADL E400EV (London version), MetroDecker and Streetdeck Electroliner are all around 10.4 to 10.5m, with a normal length rear overhang.

Thanks. All the double deck buses in my area are 11.5m so it is short compared to these.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks. All the double deck buses in my area are 11.5m so it is short compared to these.

Or rather, the double decks in your area are long compared with the norm. I know the likes of Reading and Nottingham go for longer double decks, but they're very much outliers.