Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[najaB]

Though primary blame will be ascribed, I suspect, according to pre-existing political beliefs; it's unlikely to cause anyone to shift position. It will merely make both "Remainers" and Brexiters more entrenched in their pre-existing views. "Remainers" will primarily blame the UK government while Brexiters will primarily blame Schengen.

Unfortunately, I think you're right there.

 

[RT4038]

Interesting, I bet it's a lot cheaper for British to visit Spain than for Spanish to visit the UK!

And still they come and visit the UK - but then not everyone is looking for the cheapest of everything.... If they were, Norway and Iceland would get no visitors at all. British people are not necessarily the best people to ask about the attractions of their own country.

 

[sor]

We are indeed, which begs the question, how many of those in Europe who only need ID cards to travel freely to 20-odd (maybe 30-odd?) countries will be bothered with all the expense and effort of obtaining a passport and associated documents just to travel to the UK? I certainly wouldn't, and have a feeling it will hit our tourist income down the line. Would love to be proved wrong, but I really do see the number of tourists down and the £b's we will miss out on.

Some do. When I was in the E* queue at Brussels last year, I was right behind a German family who kept looking through their rather new looking passports as if it was a novelty. It felt like they'd got them just for a trip to the UK.

I'm pretty anti-brexit but I think realistically if you're prepared to spend three or four digits on flights/trains and hotels, the relatively low cost of a passport that lasts 10 years is not a factor - and it'll be useful if you need to go beyond the EEA. I think I'd still maintain a passport if we had followed through and brought in ID cards, and some of our peer countries like the US and Ireland ask if you want both (though they call it a "passport card")

If you go down to Cornwall during the summer you'll see rather a lot of German registered cars too (I gather it's due to a popular TV series shown there that is set in Cornwall)

 

[Howardh]

Some do. When I was in the E* queue at Brussels last year, I was right behind a German family who kept looking through their rather new looking passports as if it was a novelty. It felt like they'd got them just for a trip to the UK.

I'm pretty anti-brexit but I think realistically if you're prepared to spend three or four digits on flights/trains and hotels, the relatively low cost of a passport that lasts 10 years is not a factor - and it'll be useful if you need to go beyond the EEA. I think I'd still maintain a passport if we had followed through and brought in ID cards, and some of our peer countries like the US and Ireland ask if you want both (though they call it a "passport card")

If you go down to Cornwall during the summer you'll see rather a lot of German registered cars too (I gather it's due to a popular TV series shown there that is set in Cornwall)

There's getting a passport which is one thing, then there's the hassle of renewing your ETIAS every three years when it comes in (more if you have to renew your passport within 10 years) and then goodness knows how many times we will have to input our biometrics.

I read that if you hold a ten year passport from now, then regular travellers will only need to give their biometrics once, however the details are only kept for 3 years from your last visit so irregular visitors will have to keep providing those details. Could be wrong though, I do try to keep up with Schengen info!!

But at some point THIS current government - unless there's a June election which is looking remote now - is going to have to sit down with us and explain how the protocols in travelling abroad will work, and when. In all honesty many of us got through all the paperwork in order to take a foreign break during covid, this should be a walk in the park.

But leaving people in the dark seems to be the current policy which isn't good and may backfire if holidaymakers are taken by surprise. But the main difficulties will come (and we have examples already of pax being refused departure as theor passports are out of date - even though there's time remaining) with pax arriving at their destination and something will have been forgotten or not updated.

Down the line though, as alluded to, the positives will be - HOPEFULLY - faster entry both abroad and here in the UK when you just smile at a camera, with no need to show a passport at all. After all, there's more info on your fingers than ever a passport could hold!!

But, as this is about Sunak, he's got to man up and explain to all of us what's in store. Silence so far is deafening.

 

[JamesT]

There's getting a passport which is one thing, then there's the hassle of renewing your ETIAS every three years when it comes in (more if you have to renew your passport within 10 years) and then goodness knows how many times we will have to input our biometrics.

I read that if you hold a ten year passport from now, then regular travellers will only need to give their biometrics once, however the details are only kept for 3 years from your last visit so irregular visitors will have to keep providing those details. Could be wrong though, I do try to keep up with Schengen info!!

But at some point THIS current government - unless there's a June election which is looking remote now - is going to have to sit down with us and explain how the protocols in travelling abroad will work, and when. In all honesty many of us got through all the paperwork in order to take a foreign break during covid, this should be a walk in the park.

But leaving people in the dark seems to be the current policy which isn't good and may backfire if holidaymakers are taken by surprise. But the main difficulties will come (and we have examples already of pax being refused departure as theor passports are out of date - even though there's time remaining) with pax arriving at their destination and something will have been forgotten or not updated.

Down the line though, as alluded to, the positives will be - HOPEFULLY - faster entry both abroad and here in the UK when you just smile at a camera, with no need to show a passport at all. After all, there's more info on your fingers than ever a passport could hold!!

But, as this is about Sunak, he's got to man up and explain to all of us what's in store. Silence so far is deafening.

Surely it's up to the EU to explain what ETIAS means? It's their system, they're the ones putting the requirements in place.

 

[Howardh]

Surely it's up to the EU to explain what ETIAS means? It's their system, they're the ones putting the requirements in place.

Think it's more of a job for those that wanted us to leave the EU to explain. After all, it's a direct consequence of that vote.

 

[RT4038]

Think it's more of a job for those that wanted us to leave the EU to explain. After all, it's a direct consequence of that vote.

It may be as a consequence, but Brexit is done. We have to follow the EU's rules and procedures if we wish to visit there. Beyond that, our Government has as much responsibility to tell us of those entry requirements as it has to enter any other country, and we have our own responsibility to find out. The Schengen authorities have a responsibility to make it clear what the requirements are, presuming that they want us to visit of course.

 

[Howardh]

It may be as a consequence, but Brexit is done. We have to follow the EU's rules and procedures if we wish to visit there. Beyond that, our Government has as much responsibility to tell us of those entry requirements as it has to enter any other country, and we have our own responsibility to find out.

If we reversed Brexit then we wouldn't have to. It would be a great slogan....Rejoin the EU and get our freedom back!! The more hardship Brexit brings, the sooner we return. Hopefully, if Labour get into power either (a) it will be a hung parliament so they would have to co-operate with the Lib Dems r/e Europe, (b) Labour are the largest party and start to negotiate a better relationship with the EU or (c) if they don't, the Tories recognise that the country is turning against Brexit, and they, like before, become an europhile party and offer a referendum if we vote for them in 2029.

Out of the three, I reckon (b) is the most likely. We can't continually have travellers and goods such as food and medicines held up at the border while paperwork/taxes etc are completed - it makes no sense.

 

[RT4038]

If we reversed Brexit then we wouldn't have to. It would be a great slogan....Rejoin the EU and get our freedom back!! The more hardship Brexit brings, the sooner we return. Hopefully, if Labour get into power either (a) it will be a hung parliament so they would have to co-operate with the Lib Dems r/e Europe, (b) Labour are the largest party and start to negotiate a better relationship with the EU or (c) if they don't, the Tories recognise that the country is turning against Brexit, and they, like before, become an europhile party and offer a referendum if we vote for them in 2029.

Out of the three, I reckon (b) is the most likely. We can't continually have travellers and goods such as food and medicines held up at the border while paperwork/taxes etc are completed - it makes no sense.

Reversing Brexit is wishful thinking. Each bit of hardship gets overcome and makes reversing Brexit more distant. There can always be a better relationship with the EU (if both sides want), but that doesn't mean rejoining.

 

[renegademaster]

Is there any reason why we can't accept unilaterally EU ID cards as travel documents ? Don't they have the same biometric data on them nowadays as passports?

 

[najaB]

Is there any reason why we can't accept unilaterally EU ID cards as travel documents ?

Control of our borders.

Oh, you meant a valid reason.

 

[JamesT]

Is there any reason why we can't accept unilaterally EU ID cards as travel documents ? Don't they have the same biometric data on them nowadays as passports?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...t-as-travel-document-to-strengthen-uk-borders is the official reasoning. Perhaps in a decade's time when EU ID cards are as secure as passports the UK might accept them again.

 

[renegademaster]

Control of our borders.

Oh, you meant a valid reason.

As long as they have a passport they can travel visa free for 90 days and we don't stamp their passports. A complication could be if they have citizenship data on them

 

[Busaholic]

If you go down to Cornwall during the summer you'll see rather a lot of German registered cars too (I gather it's due to a popular TV series shown there that is set in Cornwall)

That number decreases every year as the generation who followed the Rosamunde Pilcher books the series was based on, starting with the Shell Seekers, dies off. There were years in the mid and late 1990s when you'd find German filmmakers almost constantly in West Cornwall, and there's been many a shopkeeper in my town of Penzance who 'lent' their shops for filming in exchange for some Deutschmarks! My shop never got asked though, as it had featured in the very first Wycliffe television programme to be made, in 1992 I think, which had led to the influx of other producers seeking photogenic locations.

 

[Howardh]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...t-as-travel-document-to-strengthen-uk-borders is the official reasoning. Perhaps in a decade's time when EU ID cards are as secure as passports the UK might accept them again.

If iris and fingerprint scans are the way forward, surely we won't need ID cards, let alone passports, in the future? Once your bios are logged onto their computers, then the glance at a camera is all you need? Example, Joe Bloggs has his passport no. 123454321 and his fingerprint/iris is logged in the cloud with his passport number.

Bloggs flies from Manchester to Barcelona, at Manchester he stares into a camera and that says "This is Joe Bloggs" without having to show the passport, and the same at the other end, and the actual passport can be left at home? Indeed, I've seen a few articles which state "this is the end of losing your passport"!! Wish I'd booked marked them for reference!!

However - local police, hotels etc would need your ID unless they have the iris/fingerprint scanners too, which they won't have until the cost comes down > so being passportless is still some time away sadly.

But if I were a politician, particularly on the Brexit side - I would be flagging this up as a positive that within a generation we could be travelling without paperwork and much more speedily than today. But there will be an awful lot of pain before we get there!!

 

[nw1]

Moved to Brexit thread

 

[najaB]

If iris and fingerprint scans are the way forward, surely we won't need ID cards, let alone passports, in the future? Once your bios are logged onto their computers, then the glance at a camera is all you need?

Given the irrational attitude that some Brits have to ID cards ("We fought a war against 'papers please'!), I think we're some way away from that being ubiquitous.

 

[takno]

Given the irrational attitude that some Brits have to ID cards ("We fought a war against 'papers please'!), I think we're some way away from that being ubiquitous.

People seem remarkably unbothered by spilling biometrics left, right and centre. In practice the only bit we are opposed to is the physical id cards, so skipping them altogether and skipping merrily into the dystopian future actually seems quite credible.

All rather off-topic however

 

[Snow1964]

Now looks like there are 64 Conservative MPs standing down at the election

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9808/

For completeness there are 38 MPs of other parties not standing again.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given the irrational attitude that some Brits have to ID cards ("We fought a war against 'papers please'!), I think we're some way away from that being ubiquitous.

It's even more irrational when you consider we already live in a "papers please" society! The number of interactions with both the Government (local and national) and private businesses where you need to prove your identity to access a service is considerable. Yes, it isn't the police stopping you in the street and asking for you to prove your identity to them and arresting you and taking you to where you ID is or sticking you in the cells until they can be certain they've worked out who you are (and I would have a problem with the idea of being compelled to carry an ID card). But we already, in every way that really matters day to day, have a "papers please" society. We've just avoided creating a method for people to easily prove their identity by making them use driving licences, passports, or collections of random bits of paper like utility bills, council tax bills, benefit letters, etc to avoid having one national ID card.

Crackers. And I speak as someone who was a paid up member of NO2ID back in the day! What a journey I've been on with this topic

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just wonder how many of the MP's that are quitting at the next election are doing so because they know that will be the date, they get their pay until then, and they won't have to campaign throughout the middle of winter, and during holidays?

None. As silly conspiracy theories go, that one's particularly easy to debunk: We've all seen how rebellious and undisciplined the Tory Parliamentary group has been over the last few years. If Sunak had already decided the date of the next election, and had already informed every quitting Tory MP, then there's no way that info wouldn't have leaked out, so we'd all know too!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2024 ==

I'm pretty anti-brexit but I think realistically if you're prepared to spend three or four digits on flights/trains and hotels, the relatively low cost of a passport that lasts 10 years is not a factor - and it'll be useful if you need to go beyond the EEA. I think I'd still maintain a passport if we had followed through and brought in ID cards, and some of our peer countries like the US and Ireland ask if you want both (though they call it a "passport card")

Also worth pointing out that, in terms of total cost for an EU national to visit the UK, the fall in the value of the £ compared to the Euro that happened as a result of Brexit will have made holidays in the UK cheaper - and I'd expect in most cases that will outweigh the cost of getting a passport - especially if the passport can be used for 10 years' of holidays.

 

[nw1]

It's even more irrational when you consider we already live in a "papers please" society! The number of interactions with both the Government (local and national) and private businesses where you need to prove your identity to access a service is considerable. Yes, it isn't the police stopping you in the street and asking for you to prove your identity to them and arresting you and taking you to where you ID is or sticking you in the cells until they can be certain they've worked out who you are (and I would have a problem with the idea of being compelled to carry an ID card). But we already, in every way that really matters day to day, have a "papers please" society. We've just avoided creating a method for people to easily prove their identity by making them use driving licences, passports, or collections of random bits of paper like utility bills, council tax bills, benefit letters, etc to avoid having one national ID card.

Crackers. And I speak as someone who was a paid up member of NO2ID back in the day! What a journey I've been on with this topic

I'll tend to agree here. To be honest I never really had a problem with the concept of ID cards, and if it made things less "fiddly" to prove who you are, I'd be quite happy to see them introduced.

 

[takno]

Crackers. And I speak as someone who was a paid up member of NO2ID back in the day! What a journey I've been on with this topic

The journey you went on is nothing compared to the rollercoaster Theresa may went on, shredding ID cards one week, and then almost immediately introducing the hostile environment which made ID so necessary.

It was certainly a punch in the guts for those of us who thought Brown was just a bit too authoritarian, and that at least that was one area Cameron might be better on

 

[najaB]

I know that a new government won't be able to fix things overnight (or even over the course of a few years) but can we please get a new one. Police are now being asked to arrest fewer people because the prisons and court system are overburdened (read: underfunded):

Police are being instructed to consider making fewer arrests because of the lack of space in prisons.

A letter from the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) circulated last week urges chief constables to think about "pausing" so-called "non-priority arrests".

It also suggests halting planned operations where a large number of arrests could take place to "ease the pressure within the criminal justice system".

It comes as court cases are being delayed and some prisoners are being released early due to overcrowding in prisons.

Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2274gdk10o

 

[jfollows]

I know that a new government won't be able to fix things overnight (or even over the course of a few years) but can we please get a new one. Police are now being asked to arrest fewer people because the prisons and court system are overburdened (read: underfunded):

Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2274gdk10o

Yet at the same time Suella Braverman was found yesterday to have acted illegally by amending the Public Order Act by statutory instrument to broaden its scope and lead to more arrests.

https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/230606-Liberty-LBC.pdf

4.1. First, the making of the Serious Disruption Regulations would be ultra vires sections
12(12) and 14(11) of the POA 1986 insofar as the purpose and/or effect of the Serious
Disruption Regulations would be to lower the threshold at which the power to impose
conditions may be exercised. Parliament defined that threshold as being where (1)
the procession or assembly in question, (2) may cause “serious disruption to the life
of the community”. It then empowered the Secretary of State to specify examples of
cases involving “serious disruption to the life of the community”. However, Parliament
did not empower the Secretary of State to alter that threshold in and of itself. Yet the
Secretary of State is seeking to pass secondary legislation to provide that (1) the
police must have regard to disruption that will be caused to the community by matters
other than the process or assembly in question, and (2) that cases of “more than
minor” disruption fall to be treated as cases involving “serious disruption”. In this way,
the Secretary of State is seeking to amend the threshold set by Parliament by the
back door in ways that expand the powers of the police to restrict protest activity.

(The above quote is from the submission by Liberty which was agreed to by the High Court yesterday, https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content...of-State-for-the-Home-Department-judgment.pdf). A separate point on inappropriate and inadequate consultation - only the police were asked! - was also agreed with. Government is going to appeal.

 

[brad465]

Is there a precedent for a UK government using a Govt department communication channel for propaganda purposes before now:

x.com

x.com

Inflation is now 2.3%. Let's stick to the plan.

 

[birchesgreen]

Is there a precedent for a UK government using a Govt department communication channel for propaganda purposes before now:

x.com

x.com

That ship has long since sailed with this lot.

 

[takno]

Is there a precedent for a UK government using a Govt department communication channel for propaganda purposes before now:

x.com

x.com

Virtually every official press response from a government department has read like a diktat from Conservative Central Office for a few years now.

The only good bit is watching for press officers slightly gleefully parrotting the dictated lines when events have already moved on, so that the government looks uncaring as well as terrible.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rumours circulating on Twitter of a July 4th election.

 

[brad465]

Rumours circulating on Twitter of a July 4th election.

There is also a Cabinet meeting planned at 4pm this afternoon that may or may not be connected to the election:

x.com

x.com

Ministers have been told to attend cabinet at 4pm on pain of death. They have not been told what they will be discussing. Today is the final day the election could be called for June 27. Given that Sunak has said it will be in the second half of the year, July is more likely.