Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Snow1964]

It's not exactly without precedent. TPE received several extra 185s for free on top of their order from Siemens owing to delays in the production process.

As did C2C with extra 357s

Of course any extra units aren't totally free if they get tied into the maintenance contract as extra expense, with extra maintenance income for train builder

 

[Aspen90]

Pretty sure the company would pay fines for late delivery rather than give new trains for free.

Giving extra trains would mean depot capacity and workload would need looking at, as well as depot stafffijg levels as well as on board crew levels.

This does sound highly unlikely.

But, it’s the railways, so who knows, mate be more 10 car sets can run around if they do get an extra 3.

Remember Kettering is due to stable 810’s in the engineering siding - they’ve got capacity. They’ll just run more 10 cars.

 

[43096]

It's not exactly without precedent. TPE received several extra 185s for free on top of their order from Siemens owing to delays in the production process.

Are you sure? What did happen with the 185s was that DfT wanted to cut the order to less than 50, but Siemens told them it was the same price as for 51 as they needed to recover the design costs over the order, so unit price was basically unchanged.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Also from a company in an industry with no work on for some time when these are delivered.

It makes perfect sense to provide compensation in the form of additional units, provides more value to the client in terms of fleet availability, and keeps your factory busy. Sending back cash would just disappear and do nothing useful.

Agree with this speculation, and it presumably hinges on the contract between EMR and Hitachi...

Especially if Hitachi are looking at real-world 80x data and thinking they can't meet contractual performance/availability guarantees with 33 trains.
In which case, perhaps the customer outcome is not really more 10-car trains, but fewer shortforms (For example easily deliver - 30/36 availability rather than fail to get to 30/33)

Anyway it's positive all round if the service for passengers is more reliable and/or has more scope for growth.
Whilst every little helps, I'm not sure that 15 extra vehicles is really going to give anxious Hitachi staff the peace of mind they need.

 

[Nym]

Agree with this speculation, and it presumably hinges on the contract between EMR and Hitachi...

Especially if Hitachi are looking at real-world 80x data and thinking they can't meet contractual performance/availability guarantees with 33 trains.
In which case, perhaps the customer outcome is not really more 10-car trains, but fewer shortforms (For example easily deliver - 30/36 availability rather than fail to get to 30/33)

Anyway it's positive all round if the service for passengers is more reliable and/or has more scope for growth.
Whilst every little helps, I'm not sure that 15 extra vehicles is really going to give anxious Hitachi staff the peace of mind they need.

All depends on just how far delivery timescales are pushed back and what is happening in terms of the NPL let go and 'wind down' of the site prior to HS2 kick off.

I don't think anyone on here knows (or if did know couldn't say) the commercial strategy of Hitachi oop norf, but they almost definitely will have a plan.

 

[Trainman40083]

Seems crazy that the replacement supplier couldn't just replicate the existing pedal - then again this is the railway!

That might depend upon IPR.

 

[43055]

Not as far as I know. 810001 is at Etches for a ‘fault to be rectified’ by Hitachi. Will be there a few days apparently.

Was still at Etches this morning alongside the shed.

 

[800001]

Was still at Etches this morning alongside the shed.

Will be there for roughly 2-3 weeks I’ve heard

 

[43066]

Will be there for roughly 2-3 weeks I’ve heard

I spotted this last night heading into Derby - first one I’ve seen in the flesh! It really does look noticeably different from the other 8XXs.

 

[QSK19]

Looks like 810004 made an appearance pan up. Photo originally posted in the Class 8xx Appreciation group on Facebook

 

[DJH1971]

Looks like 810004 made an appearance pan up. Photo originally posted in the Class 8xx Appreciation group on Facebook

Where was this?

 

[QSK19]

Where was this?

Looks like Newton Aycliffe to me.

 

[childwallblues]

810001 still at Etches Park when I passed this morning.

 

[800001]

810001 still at Etches Park when I passed this morning.

And will be for a couple of weeks, see post 2559.

 

[Mugby]

Had a good look at 810001 on Etches Park as I passed by on a Nottingham train yesterday, it doesn't have any seats in, just empty body shells.

 

[spyinthesky]

Had a good look at 810001 on Etches Park as I passed by on a Nottingham train yesterday, it doesn't have any seats in, just empty body shells.

That’ll be for the all new reserved standing only set

 

[800001]

Had a good look at 810001 on Etches Park as I passed by on a Nottingham train yesterday, it doesn't have any seats in, just empty body shells.

It is a test train for Hitachi, full
Of weights and test equipment, the unit has not been handed over to EMR.
The unit is at Derby for the testing and
Commissioning of some of the new depot equipment.

 

[38Cto15E]

Has the landslip on the Old Dalby line delayed the 810's entering EMR service?

 

[QSK19]

Has the landslip on the Old Dalby line delayed the 810's entering EMR service?

Judging by previous replies, two reasons are painfully slow progress by Hitachi (it’s been mentioned on RF that EMR may be getting 3 more 810s FOC as compensation for the delay) and still no agreement with unions over the training plan.

I would wager a quid or two that full introduction would be pushed back to 2026.

 

[Aspen90]

Judging by previous replies, two reasons are painfully slow progress by Hitachi (it’s been mentioned on RF that EMR may be getting 3 more 810s FOC as compensation for the delay) and still no agreement with unions over the training plan.

I would wager a quid or two that full introduction would be pushed back to 2026.

I agree with you. There’s no way they are going to get them in to service by ‘mid 2025’ when the drivers won’t touch them, if a deal IS struck for the hundreds of drivers to be traction trained on them, and all of the TM’s to be trained. Then there will be the inevitable ‘teething problems’…

 

[Energy]

Judging by previous replies, two reasons are painfully slow progress by Hitachi (it’s been mentioned on RF that EMR may be getting 3 more 810s FOC as compensation for the delay) and still no agreement with unions over the training plan.

Abellio didn't quote order enough 810s. A couple years ago there was talk of EMR trying to keep the 180s as a top up so a few extra 810s for free would be good. EMR is fortunate that its existing fleet isn't that old so it isn't too desperate for the 810s.

 

[QSK19]

Abellio didn't quote order enough 810s. A couple years ago there was talk of EMR trying to keep the 180s as a top up so a few extra 810s for free would be good. EMR is fortunate that its existing fleet isn't that old so it isn't too desperate for the 810s.

Correct, not like they’re under time pressure - any future 222 operator will simply have to wait. Nevertheless, still frustrating that 810 progress is slow.

Keeping the 180s was, IMO, wishful thinking. Even if they were retained at a peppercorn lease, it would have been a half-arsed solution to the problem.

If the 3 extra 810s do materialise, I think Abellio/Transport UK/EMR will have got away with the insufficient stock issue through sheer luck and fluke.

 

[Nym]

I’d hardly say its luck that Hitachi are late with something…

 

[Energy]

Keeping the 180s was, IMO, wishful thinking. Even if they were retained at a peppercorn lease, it would have been a half-arsed solution to the problem.

Agreed. While they were on lease they struggled to get the 2 in service per day needed.

I presume the thinking of keeping them around was that they could pay Angel as little as possible as nobody else wants them. Though they'd obviously still need to pay for maintanence.

If the 3 extra 810s do materialise, I think Abellio/Transport UK/EMR will have got away with the insufficient stock issue through sheer luck and fluke.

Agreed, I hope they do materialise.

 

[QSK19]

I’d hardly say its luck that Hitachi are late with something…

Agreed - I meant luck as in Abellio got the IC stock requirements wrong and, ironically, Hitachi could be unintentionally bailing them (well, EMR/TUK) out.

 

[T74]

810001 wasn’t on etches park today well not next to new shed anyway when went past anyone know where it’s gone .

 

[LowLevel]

810001 wasn’t on etches park today well not next to new shed anyway when went past anyone know where it’s gone .

I think it is inside said shed.

 

[TheBigD]

When I passed Etches Park at 17:15 this evening, it was in full veiw outside.

 

[43055]

Not the best but the 810 was hiding behind a 222 this morning. Both were gone by earlier this afternoon.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Keeping the 180s was, IMO, wishful thinking. Even if they were retained at a peppercorn lease, it would have been a half-arsed solution to the problem.

Why couldn't they of kept a microfleet of 222s instead? I'm obviously no fleet manager and don't know how leases work but surely having a more well-known, reliable fleet is better than training on a new fleet of well-known unreliable trains?