LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[AdamWW]

The downside to buying singles is how the restrictions are then applied. With a return ticket from Yorkshire to Devon the restrictions in both directions are those in and out of King's Cross but with a single for the return leg the restrictions applied are those into Paddington. This can be a negative in meaning the journey cannot be started as early as may be desired. It can also be a positive in allowing travel from King's Cross in the afternoon peak but it's a mixed picture.

So did the introduction of single leg pricing just involve abolishing some through fares rather than replacing them with single leg equivalents?

I'm still struggling to see how single leg pricing for off peak returns paved the way for a scheme that involves abolishing off peak fares completely.

(Or maybe my assumption that anytime singles were previously half the return is wrong)

 

[Bikeman78]

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

I assume you would want this to be a peak train? So an Anytime ticket would be required to travel from Peterborough to Kings Cross

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

I assume this would be an Off Peak train? So I'd be ok using an Off Peak ticket to travel from Peterborough.

So an Off Peak ticket would be ok on the 11:11 but an Anytime ticket required to travel on the 11:50. That's bonkers!
Having restrictions determined by the train would lead to farcical outcomes.

Wasn't there a time when off peak tickets were valid on all trains between London and Scotland? When did that change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So did the introduction of single leg pricing just involve abolishing some through fares rather than replacing them with single leg equivalents?

It involved:
1. Reducing the Super Off Peak Single to half the Super Off Peak Return plus about 10% (later another 5-10% or so was very sneakily stuck on top).
2. Removing the Off Peak Single and Return, which on LNER were shoulder-peak "business saver" type tickets, as indeed they are on GWR but not the WCML.

The aspect mentioned, though, is that you can't usefully have asymmetric restrictions or fares* if you do single fare pricing, though which set of restrictions apply in a non-obvious "Network Rule" type situation is a bit moot, one set will be an advantage to some people and the other set to other people, it's hard to say one's right and one's wrong.

* Example, if you're talking about a South East commuter journey you may want to apply looser restrictions to a return out of London than a return into it, i.e. you want your inbound commuters to buy an Anytime Day Return if returning between 4 and 7pm, say, but you want an evening daytripper from London to be able to use an off peak for an outward at those times or they simply won't bother.

I'm still struggling to see how single leg pricing for off peak returns paved the way for a scheme that involves abolishing off peak fares completely.

It didn't really other than that there were two steps in LNER's plans. The one possibility I can think of is that for most people the outward time of a journey is relatively fixed*, flexibility tends to be needed on the return, so the effect of it may have been to increase Advance sales as people would tend to do Advance out, flexible back.

* One thing the 70 minute flex does fit very well is delays caused by other modes causing the missing of one train, e.g. a late or cancelled bus to the station.

(Or maybe my assumption that anytime singles were previously half the return is wrong)

They mostly are and were, or at least thereabouts. They only tended not to be on commuter journeys, to discourage the purchase of a single in and a Railcard discounted single back (which because they now largely are half the returns is better value than a flexi season for a good many South East mid-length journeys).

 

[Haywain]

Wasn't there a time when off peak tickets were valid on all trains between London and Scotland? When did that change?

There was but it was probably 15 to 20 years ago.

 

[takno]

Wasn't there a time when off peak tickets were valid on all trains between London and Scotland? When did that change?

That used to be true on the West Coast (might still be). It hasn't been true on the East Coast in the 20 years I've lived up here

 

[Bletchleyite]

That used to be true on the West Coast (might still be). It hasn't been true on the East Coast in the 20 years I've lived up here

On the West Coast the restrictions are less swingeing north of Preston than south of it. It causes no end of trouble and only needs to be the case because of the punitive level of Anytimes to the North West. LNER's longer ones are expensive but are much more reasonable than the WCML - £400 return London-Edinburgh, but £350 London-Manchester despite it being half the distance!

Prestonians are well advised to have a nice ride to Lancaster and back (it's pleasant green rolling hills) and save a fortune!

 

[Mainline421]

I'm still struggling to see how single leg pricing for off peak returns paved the way for a scheme that involves abolishing off peak fares completely.

I think there's a portion of the general public who don't use the train often to whom ticket types like "Off-Peak" look the same as an advance on an online journey planner. But they understood and used open returns when they were available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there's a portion of the general public who don't use the train often to whom ticket types like "Off-Peak" look the same as an advance on an online journey planner. But they understood and used open returns when they were available.

Most people book the long distance train the same as a flight and assume it's all train specific (so calling the 70 minute thing out is probably useful to them). That's why removing the fare capping the Super Off Peak provided is much more of an issue for most people than lost flexibility, particularly as if the cap remained you could just buy an Advance once you knew your plans, or if the £10 admin fee was binned buy one and change it accordingly, a common use case for TGVs and the likes. It's not *as* good as a flexible ticket but it's workable-with - high fares aren't.

 

[wilbers]

high fares aren't.

..and potentially high and unpredictable fares even more so.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

At last the wider media are picking up on what LNER are really up to.

LNER simpler fares trial adds more than £100 to some train journeys

Campaigners urge rail firm to rethink ‘beyond tolerable’ prices on many trains running from London to Edinburgh

www.theguardian.com

"Mark Smith, the expert behind the Man in Seat 61 website, told the Guardian last month the move could mean the end of affordable, walk-up travel on the route.

He told PA: “It’s now pretty clear to everyone that the LNER fares ‘simplification’ was a smokescreen for removing the off-peak fare to allow big price increases. As a trial simplification for passengers it has already failed and should not be extended.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

At last the wider media are picking up on what LNER are really up to.

LNER simpler fares trial adds more than £100 to some train journeys

Campaigners urge rail firm to rethink ‘beyond tolerable’ prices on many trains running from London to Edinburgh

www.theguardian.com

"Mark Smith, the expert behind the Man in Seat 61 website, told the Guardian last month the move could mean the end of affordable, walk-up travel on the route.

He told PA: “It’s now pretty clear to everyone that the LNER fares ‘simplification’ was a smokescreen for removing the off-peak fare to allow big price increases. As a trial simplification for passengers it has already failed and should not be extended.”

I think Mark Smith is being VERY helpful in exposing this - but when it first came out on Twitter it took a fair bit of convincing to get him to accept it was a bad thing - now he very much does though!

 

[yorksrob]

This is good news. We need the BEEB to do a big exposé now.

 

[setdown]

It would be simply lovely if the Trainline app popped-up something along the lines of 'Why not have a day out at Haymarket instead? It'll cost you a lot less!" I think for better or worse, Trainline is the entry point to the railway for most people outside of this website.

 

[island]

It would be simply lovely if the Trainline app popped-up something along the lines of 'Why not have a day out at Haymarket instead? It'll cost you a lot less!" I think for better or worse, Trainline is the entry point to the railway for most people outside of this website.

I believe that would be an accreditation breach.

 

[AdamWW]

I believe that would be an accreditation breach.

I would have thought a move to higher fares and ones which have to be booked in advance would be a good thing for the trainline.

 

[Krokodil]

I believe that would be an accreditation breach.

They'd have to be more subtle. How about:

"See more of Edinburgh. Flexible tickets to Haymarket for only £80" (I couldn't remember the exact price)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2024 ==

I would have thought a move to higher fares and ones which have to be booked in advance would be a good thing for the trainline.

Yeah, let's not pretend that they're friends of the consumer. They would only offer a cheaper fare if they could expect extra revenue as a result.

 

[Kite159]

I think Mark Smith is being VERY helpful in exposing this - but when it first came out on Twitter it took a fair bit of convincing to get him to accept it was a bad thing - now he very much does though!

Wasn't he one of the people who were against it from the start with another writer (Christian Wolmer originally in flavour of the change only to change his colours when he saw which way the wind was blowing?

 

[Mainline421]

I believe that would be an accreditation breach.

Having an advert is not an accreditation breach! Many sites including Trainline already advertise coach alternatives from nearby locations, hotels, and other journeys. All that's needed is a link labeled "London Kings Cross to Haymarket (central Edinburgh) flexible fares from £57.40"

 

[Wallsendmag]

I believe that would be an accreditation breach.

And?

 

[AdamWW]

At last the wider media are picking up on what LNER are really up to.

An LNER spokesperson said: “Since the pilot launched, the majority of customers who have bought advance tickets have paid less than the old super off-peak fare. We’ll continue to monitor and will make adjustments so that as many people as possible can access the right ticket at the right price for them.”

Hmm.

Like most of what they say on this it appears to be carefully designed to sound much better than it actually is.

Majority means anything over 50% (like the majority who apparently said they'd never need more flexibility than one hour each way).

Somehow "At least half of the tickets sold were cheaper than the off-peak fares" doesn't sound as good does it?
These are after all tickets with far more restrictive rules than off peaks.

Without knowing how many people found these unavailable and had to buy an anytime or find another way to travel it doesn't tell you much, does it?

They could stop selling advances 3 weeks before the date of travel and still make that statement.

"So...as many people as possible can access the right ticket"....if you really want that bring back off peaks

 

[DanNCL]

LNER have now responded to an FOI request for the Equality Impact Assessment for the fare changes:

Equality Impact Assessments for Fare Simplification trial announced on 16/1/24 - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

Please can you provide all 'Equality Impact Assessments' (or equivalent documents) related to the fares simplification trial announced on 16/1/24 at https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/ Particularly, any documents that evaluate the impact of...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Basically, up to the DfT to carry out any Equality Impact Assessment (despite LNER trying to pretend that the DfT aren't pulling the strings), and they can't find any copy of the DfT's assessment either.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that no assessment was actually carried out, despite any fare changes potentially having a greater impact on those that cannot drive due to disability!

Legally LNER are the entity that made the changes so I’m pretty sure it was their responsibility to do an Equality Impact Assessment. The DFT instruction is irrelevant, legally the fares are set by LNER.

I’d love to see someone with the means of doing so challenge this in court. I can’t see LNER/DFT lasting two minutes.

 

[yorkie]

That is, on timetables, journey planners, information screens, have a universally recognisable indicator for every departure, that shows whether or not it's a "peak" service.

There is no such thing as a "peak service" as such; it very much depends on the ticket held. if you wish to propose the current system, please create a new thread in Speculative Discussion (feel free to link to it here)

You could apply that to the price of almost everything, eg milk or coffee or air fares or car park charges or council tax.
Rail fares are no different, and even regulated fares have gone up 20%+ in that time.

You've either not read this thread, or not understood it. Or maybe it's not a serious post?! If it is a serious post, it is baffling, as it makes no sense in the context of this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2024 ==

Legally LNER are the entity that made the changes so I’m pretty sure it was their responsibility to do an Equality Impact Assessment. The DFT instruction is irrelevant, legally the fares are set by LNER.

I’d love to see someone with the means of doing so challenge this in court. I can’t see LNER/DFT lasting two minutes.

I agree. LNER is not the only TOC I am aware of who is claiming DfT is responsible for the TOC's actions, but legally that isn't the correct position, as I understand it.

If I ask at King's Cross LNER ticket office for, 'The cheapest available flexible ticket valid for [insert train on which super off peak tickets are valid] to Newcastle',.....

[Clarifying for tidiness that more than +/-70 minutes flexibility is required]

A) What should I be sold?
B) What am I likely to be sold?

You should be advised of both Lumo and LNER products between London and Newcastle.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Several reports in the press now about this adding more than one hundred pounds to the cost of some rail journeys

LNER simpler fares trial adds more than £100 to some train journeys

Campaigners urge rail firm to rethink ‘beyond tolerable’ prices on many trains running from London to Edinburgh

www.theguardian.com

LNER simpler fares trial adds more than £100 to some train journeys
Campaigners urge rail firm to rethink ‘beyond tolerable’ prices on many trains running from London to Edinburgh
Mark Smith, the expert behind the Man in Seat 61 website, told the Guardian last month the move could mean the end of affordable, walk-up travel on the route.
He told PA: “It’s now pretty clear to everyone that the LNER fares ‘simplification’ was a smokescreen for removing the off-peak fare to allow big price increases. As a trial simplification for passengers it has already failed and should not be extended.”
Smith said passengers from London could bypass the trial and still buy an £87 super off-peak ticket to Haymarket, one station beyond Edinburgh, if necessary.
Neil Middleton, a director at the campaign group Railfuture, said the removal of the super off-peak ticket was “an awful move”.

Access Restricted

Train passengers heading to and from London issued '£193' charge warning

The train operator LNER started the pilot scheme this month after pledging to make ticketing easier and better value for money.

www.birminghammail.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

This is good news. We need the BEEB to do a big exposé now.

Looks like the latest press reports are the result of an investigation by PA news agency.

Train fare 'simplification' trial adds more than £100 to cost of some journeys

Rail campaign groups have described the trial as 'awful' and 'a smokescreen' after it resulted in the cost of some journeys increasing

www.mirror.co.uk

A trial to make train fares simpler has ended up adding more than £100 to the cost of some journeys on one of the UK's busiest railway lines.
This was discovered by PA news agency when they investigated tickets sold by London North Eastern Railway (LNER) for travel on the East Coast Main Line.

Regardless of whether this abolition of off peak fares London to Newcastle Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh is coming from LNER management, Department for Transport, HM Treasury or Government Ministers LNER is under Government control so the Government is responsible and rail passengers should raise this issue with their Members of Parliament.

 

[modernrail]

Having an advert is not an accreditation breach! Many sites including Trainline already advertise coach alternatives from nearby locations, hotels, and other journeys. All that's needed is a link labeled "London Kings Cross to Haymarket (central Edinburgh) flexible fares from £57.40"

I would go further. If there was any attempt to stop such an advert that act might well breach of Competition Law.

You can’t stop an outlet that has legal access to the selling of tickets advertising a legal ticket because you want to capture that business instead at a higher price. The whole point of Competition Law is to drive prices down by stopping of behaviour that seeks to distort the market.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==

Several reports in the press now about this adding more than one hundred pounds to the cost of some rail journeys






== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2024 ==


Looks like the latest press reports are the result of an investigation by PA news agency.

Regardless of whether this abolition of off peak fares London to Newcastle Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh is coming from LNER management, Department for Transport, HM Treasury or Government Ministers LNER is under Government control so the Government is responsible and rail passengers should raise this issue with their Members of Parliament.

Exactly. This is clearly Government sanctioned if not ordered. Good to see the press starting to get their head around it.

 

[MrJeeves]

I would go further. If there was any attempt to stop such an advert that act might well breach of Competition Law.

Find someone to sponsor such a legal battle first.

 

[modernrail]

Find someone to sponsor such a legal battle first.

?.

Competition Law complaints don’t involve a legal battle sponsored by a complainant. The complainant complains of a potential breach of Competition Law to the Competition Markets Authority. It then reviews the behaviour and decides whether the consumer is likely to be subject to higher pricing (or a lack of choice) as a result of a breach of Competition Law principles.

If the CMA believes a breach may have occurred it informs the company concerned and requests clarification or action. If it is not satisfied with the response it can initiate proceedings and issue significant fines in the event of non-compliance.

Of course it would be open to LNER to shut down the workaround by extending the trial fare to Haymarket, and then in a game of whac-a-mole extending it to whichever station is picked next as the workaround.

In the process it would be confirming what has happened here. LNER has introduced a change and lied about its purpose and grossly misrepresented the balance of benefit to the customer in terms of removing a flexible, refundable, upgradable, capped at [£x] fare class with a less flexible, non-refundable, non-upgradable, capped at approximately double [x] class of fare.

A real shame a previously decent operator decided to go down that route. Very poor leadership and is acting a ruin a strong brand as the press coverage gathers pace.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I was at Alnmouth Ticket Office yesterday and saw a printed sheet on the window between the staff member and customer. The gist of it was that LNER is removing return tickets in June to make journeys "cheaper" and to allow "more flexibility" for passengers. Didn't take a photo.

 

[Buzby]

The powers that be at LNER will have an almighty struggle trying to install that charging for journeys singly will make journey’s ‘cheaper’. Many of us spent a lifetime realising that a return was invariably slightly dearer than a standard single, but made the total journey cost almost half what it would have been if only singles had been bought. Cheap Day Returns have been ingrained in many of us - and if these have gone, alternative transportation will be deployed.

I wonder how long it will be before someone realises passengers haven’t been fooled and they’ll have to look at it again?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I was at Alnmouth Ticket Office yesterday and saw a printed sheet on the window between the staff member and customer. The gist of it was that LNER is removing return tickets in June to make journeys "cheaper" and to allow "more flexibility" for passengers. Didn't take a photo.

That happened in June 2023, and saw Off-Peak (former Business Saver) tickets abolished as well, leaving Anytime and Super Off-Peak Singles as the only walk up fares on most flows LNER price.

 

[Hadders]

I was at Alnmouth Ticket Office yesterday and saw a printed sheet on the window between the staff member and customer. The gist of it was that LNER is removing return tickets in June to make journeys "cheaper" and to allow "more flexibility" for passengers. Didn't take a photo.

This would have been an old notice from last year that hasn't been removed or updated.