LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Sealink]

There is no such requirement. But if you do it'd involve changing the ticket, not just making a separate reservation, which will cancel the old one.

Should have gone into more detail: LNER push the narrative to be "Seat Secure" strongly.

They even have this on the app.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Railfuture is calling upon LNER to reinstate the Super Off-Peak fare immediately

Railfuture | Press release 4th February 2024

Railfuture

www.railfuture.org.uk

Arriving from tomorrow: 130% fare increases on LNER

Under their new model, the only ticket that is guaranteed to be available is the fully flexible (anytime) single – the most expensive ticket. The cheaper, flexible, ‘Super Off-Peak’ ticket, valid for most of the day (and all day Friday to Sunday) is abolished.

Railfuture looked at available fares at lunchtime today (Sunday 4 February) and confirmed that there are some services with a 130% fare increase compared to the same service last week....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2024 ==

London Terminals to Manors Super Off-Peak Single £83.80
London Terminals to Newcastle Anytime Single £192.80

 

[D6700]

Yesterday, I took a trip to London, fully expecting to return north on a certain train. However, due to circumstances outside my control, it became necessary to return 2 hours later, which is well outside the window of that 70 minute "flex".

With my actually flexible ticket, this was no problem at all, but with LNER's shady new approach, that would make me perfect fodder to take a real battering!

"It's your money that we want - and your money we shall have!" (Adam & The Ants - Jolly Roger)

 

[yorkie]

Yesterday, I took a trip to London, fully expecting to return north on a certain train. However, due to circumstances outside my control, it became necessary to return 2 hours later, which is well outside the window of that 70 minute "flex".

With my actually flexible ticket, this was no problem at all, but with LNER's shady new approach, that would make me perfect fodder to take a real battering!

"It's your money that we want - and your money we shall have!" (Adam & The Ants - Jolly Roger)

Yep that's additional revenue they have their eyes on. The DfT see this as a great opportunity to bring in more revenue (without having to have the inconvenience of carrying any more passengers), which is why they are bringing in such changes.

 

[modernrail]

Well done Railfuture for being unequivocal.

If this was about simplifying fares I would personally be going for keeping the Advance as it is but allowing you to use a train either side for a fixed supplement (but you take your chance on getting a seat). Then also keep the off-peak and again, if you don’t book a seat you take your chances.

Are LNER still lying or have they finally started to admit their original press around this was a lie? I know there are those on here that doubt it is an outright lie, but it is. It’s a real shame because LNER was previously the one TOC that felt solid. Now they suddenly feel like charlatans, loose with the truth and taking their own passengers for mugs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this was about simplifying fares I would personally be going for keeping the Advance as it is but allowing you to use a train either side for a fixed supplement (but you take your chance on getting a seat). Then also keep the off-peak and again, if you don’t book a seat you take your chances.

Single-fare pricing was a genuine simplification (though I'm conscious not everyone supports it, and the Project Oval single-fare pricing in the South East does better by keeping the day returns as well!). This was about nothing but fare increases. I don't think they even care about the simplicity vs. complexity discussion at all, it was simply (!) about removing the price cap of the Off Peak Single - and if you look at the fares now this is utterly obvious.

Good to see Railfuture jumping on it - but I think we need a bit more, such as some prominent national Press.

 

[sheff1]

Single-fare pricing was a genuine simplification (though I'm conscious not everyone supports it, and the Project Oval single-fare pricing in the South East does better by keeping the day returns as well!). This was about nothing but fare increases. I don't think they even care about the simplicity vs. complexity discussion at all, it was simply (!) about removing the price cap of the Off Peak Single - and if you look at the fares now this is utterly obvious.

Good to see Railfuture jumping on it - but I think we need a bit more, such as some prominent national Press.

LNER/DfT tested the water by doing away with returns first. Despite sneaking in a fares increase for many at the same time they managed to get widespread support for 'simplification'.

Emboldened, they got rid of the Off Peak on these flows and didn't even bother to wait a discrete time before hiking the Advances, which was clearly their intention all along. Bit more dissent at this but no major uproar to cause a U-turn (unlike the ticket office closure fiasco).... the drip, drip strategy is working for them so far ... we can but hope.

 

[johncrossley]

The TOCs did even worse in the late 90s by introducing peak restrictions onto Savers (now Off-Peak Returns) outside London. For example, Peterborough to York had no peak restrictions. But there was no protest that I remember and they got away with it

 

[yorksrob]

It's very good news that Railfuture have got hold of this. Hopefully we'll see the news spread to the press and the television.

 

[AdamWW]

It's very good news that Railfuture have got hold of this. Hopefully we'll see the news spread to the press and the television.

Yes indeed - after the disappointment of other organisations appearing to support "simplification".

 

[yorksrob]

Yes indeed - after the disappointment of other organisations appearing to support "simplification".

Indeed. Hopefully those other organisations may see the error of their ways.

 

[robbeech]

London Terminals to Manors Super Off-Peak Single £83.80
London Terminals to Newcastle Anytime Single £192.80

We really must stop these comparisons imo. Yes it’s a temporary fix for people but it’s not a real solution. This trial will be seen as a success due to the way they will manipulate results, then it will roll out to “and connections” too just lie single leg pricing (which isn’t all bad) did.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yup, as suspected, no guarantee of an advance ticket. Next train to Newcastle from KX at 1030 is 145 quid single. Fortunately splits are still available at Darlington but once they’re done away with it’s Flixbus I’m afraid.

 

[Fermiboson]

Is there any coverage, at all, positive or negative, in mainstream sources about this change in fare structure?

 

[AdamWW]

Indeed. Hopefully those other organisations may see the error of their ways.

I'd also suggest that anyone wanting to do something constructive about this and able to afford the membership fees might consider joining Railfuture. (Unless of course they're already a member)

I think it's £20 a year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2024 ==

Yup, as suspected, no guarantee of an advance ticket. Next train to Newcastle from KX at 1030 is 145 quid single. Fortunately splits are still available at Darlington but once they’re done away with it’s Flixbus I’m afraid.

And presumably when they next issue "Do not travel" advice they can just pull all tickets apart from anytimes.

Excellent news for coach companies if this is the future of the railway.

 

[fandroid]

Single-fare pricing was a genuine simplification (though I'm conscious not everyone supports it, and the Project Oval single-fare pricing in the South East does better by keeping the day returns as well!). This was about nothing but fare increases. I don't think they even care about the simplicity vs. complexity discussion at all, it was simply (!) about removing the price cap of the Off Peak Single - and if you look at the fares now this is utterly obvious.

I'm convinced that DfT are fundamentally against any actual simplification. Plenty of warm words, but in the meantime they are encouraging or allowing the expansion of an entire dog's breakfast of tickets that vary all over the country in the labyrinthine conditions that are attached to them, and the penalties that might accrue for failing to understand those conditions.

Partly it's down to the competition and innovation myths. If you've divided the industry up to encourage "competition" then you've decided to let them all do their own things and to sow confusion amongst anyone who is bold enough to use more than one TOC for their rail journeys. Add in the favourite word of all government departments - "innovation", and you are actively encouraging this tide of increased complexity, even if it results in less income overall.

My guess is that the independent ticket sellers will be the ones who use their innovative instincts to find ways around LNER's baffling attempt to reduce ticket sales.

It's travellers to and from Newcastle who are the real victims here. Scottish travellers do have some fairly simple alternatives available, but the Geordies are virtually trapped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's travellers to and from Newcastle who are the real victims here. Scottish travellers do have some fairly simple alternatives available, but the Geordies are virtually trapped.

It's certainly to Lumo's benefit, but yes, I agree, the air travel options from Newcastle are much smaller.

Interestingly Lumo don't (yet) seem to have used it to crank their prices up. You see £20 up against £200 by LNER. I'm no great fan of Lumo, nor indeed of Open Access as a general concept, but it certainly seems worth taking a smaller bag to save £180!

 

[D6700]

The TOCs did even worse in the late 90s by introducing peak restrictions onto Savers (now Off-Peak Returns) outside London. For example, Peterborough to York had no peak restrictions. But there was no protest that I remember and they got away with it

It was indeed very bad, notably on a former Intercity route passing through Birmingham. At that time, though, I feel there was less opportunity for normal people to put their opinions out there and spread the word.

I don't agree that it was worse than this, though, as the impact of that change was avoidable to an extent, whereas this seeks to make the maximum fare "the fare". Without a doubt, if they get away with this, it will be applied everywhere.

Whilst regulated fares may not be reinforced by specific legislation, this passenger protection has been fully accepted by industry conduct for a very long time. LNER's highly unethical behaviour smashes this apart and will open the floodgates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TOCs did even worse in the late 90s by introducing peak restrictions onto Savers (now Off-Peak Returns) outside London. For example, Peterborough to York had no peak restrictions. But there was no protest that I remember and they got away with it

They largely got away with it because most leisure travel could still avoid the restricted times and so the increases were only pushed onto businesses, who at the time would just pay up.

That has of course now changed, and left a black hole in the railway's finances, which leads to LNER wanting to charge Anytime type rates for stuff like Sunday afternoons when it's actually busy.

(As noted the flexibility bit is somewhat moot - if the cap remained in place and you binned the £10 admin fee you could change your Advance as many times as you wanted and would retain most of the flexibility that the majority of passengers care about - what this is really about is removing that cap)

 

[Dewedin]

Transport Focus response

Thank you contacting Transport Focus following LNER's announcement about their fares pilot on journeys between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh.

The pilot temporarily abolishes peak times with the stated aim of ‘helping to smooth demand for services over the course of the day’. The trial also temporarily removes the regulated Off-Peak single and introduces a ‘70min Flex’ (Semi-Flexible) fare. This is a new type of Advance fare which offers some limited flexibility to travel on other LNER services up to 70 minutes before or after the booked train. Transport Focus's media line responding to the announcement is available here - https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/news/lner-fares-pilot-scheme-transport-focus-comment/.

The ‘Easier Fares for All’ consultation in 2019 showed widespread public support for fares reform. Transport Focus has long pushed for reform and welcomed the previous extension of single-leg pricing across all LNER’s routes. This latest pilot is a much more radical change for passengers, albeit just on a relatively small number of long-distance journeys. It’s right to trial new ideas first to see if they work. Much better that ideas are tested thoroughly before a decision is made about whether to roll them out more widely.

LNER have pointed out that the majority of passengers making journeys on the pilot routes already use Advance tickets, with no flexibility. Only 11 per cent of journeys on the routes in the trial are currently made with the Off-Peak fares that are no longer available. Introducing a ‘Semi-flexible’ ticket means that some level of flexibility during traditional peak times will now be more affordable than before, when the only flexible option was the very expensive Anytime ticket. Passengers onboard the busiest services could also have more comfortable journeys if crowding is reduced. But what isn’t clear yet is how passengers will react and particularly if a greater number of cheaper fares will be available than before and succeed in getting more people on the trains and filling empty seats.

It appears that during what were ‘Off-Peak’ times tickets can now sometimes cost more than the old Off-Peak fare in return for less flexibility. And there is the chance that when all Advance fares have been sold that passengers wanting to travel on the very busiest services may now find the only option is the full Anytime fare, or travelling by car, coach or plane instead. In any circumstances where people may be asked to pay more for less they will need a lot of convincing that the other benefits outweigh the obvious and immediate disadvantages.

We understand your concerns about the pilot and the impact of removing the regulated ‘Off-peak’ ticket, especially when it’s not clear to passengers if the changes are intended to be revenue neutral or if passengers will pay more overall. We are pressing for more detailed information about the trial to be made available publicly. We also recognise that once they have bought a ticket some passengers will have less flexibility than before, as the Semi-Flexible tickets are non-refundable unlike the previous Off-Peak fares. We’ll be raising this with LNER to see if adjustments can be made to the pilot. It’s fair to say the pilot hasn’t received a warm welcome in all quarters. It is hard to see how the fares being trialled could be rolled-out to shorter-distance routes – even as a trial – as we know that on many journeys passengers rely on the ‘Off-Peak’ ticket to give them flexibility and a guaranteed ‘walk-up’ option at a relatively affordable price.

Transport Focus's permission is not required for operators to trial fares changes like this. We're pressing the importance of evidence from the trial is collected and reported transparently so people can make an informed judgement about whether the fares being trialled are an improvement for passengers. This must be done before any decision is made about making any change permanent or rolling it out to other routes. We understand that a full evaluation of the two-year pilot will be published, including an interim evaluation after one year. We will be monitoring closely to see whether or not the trial delivers better value for money tickets for passengers.

 

[Fermiboson]

Transport Focus response

Thank you contacting Transport Focus following LNER's announcement about their fares pilot on journeys between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh.

The pilot temporarily abolishes peak times with the stated aim of ‘helping to smooth demand for services over the course of the day’. The trial also temporarily removes the regulated Off-Peak single and introduces a ‘70min Flex’ (Semi-Flexible) fare. This is a new type of Advance fare which offers some limited flexibility to travel on other LNER services up to 70 minutes before or after the booked train. Transport Focus's media line responding to the announcement is available here - https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/news/lner-fares-pilot-scheme-transport-focus-comment/.

The ‘Easier Fares for All’ consultation in 2019 showed widespread public support for fares reform. Transport Focus has long pushed for reform and welcomed the previous extension of single-leg pricing across all LNER’s routes. This latest pilot is a much more radical change for passengers, albeit just on a relatively small number of long-distance journeys. It’s right to trial new ideas first to see if they work. Much better that ideas are tested thoroughly before a decision is made about whether to roll them out more widely.

LNER have pointed out that the majority of passengers making journeys on the pilot routes already use Advance tickets, with no flexibility. Only 11 per cent of journeys on the routes in the trial are currently made with the Off-Peak fares that are no longer available. Introducing a ‘Semi-flexible’ ticket means that some level of flexibility during traditional peak times will now be more affordable than before, when the only flexible option was the very expensive Anytime ticket. Passengers onboard the busiest services could also have more comfortable journeys if crowding is reduced. But what isn’t clear yet is how passengers will react and particularly if a greater number of cheaper fares will be available than before and succeed in getting more people on the trains and filling empty seats.

It appears that during what were ‘Off-Peak’ times tickets can now sometimes cost more than the old Off-Peak fare in return for less flexibility. And there is the chance that when all Advance fares have been sold that passengers wanting to travel on the very busiest services may now find the only option is the full Anytime fare, or travelling by car, coach or plane instead. In any circumstances where people may be asked to pay more for less they will need a lot of convincing that the other benefits outweigh the obvious and immediate disadvantages.

We understand your concerns about the pilot and the impact of removing the regulated ‘Off-peak’ ticket, especially when it’s not clear to passengers if the changes are intended to be revenue neutral or if passengers will pay more overall. We are pressing for more detailed information about the trial to be made available publicly. We also recognise that once they have bought a ticket some passengers will have less flexibility than before, as the Semi-Flexible tickets are non-refundable unlike the previous Off-Peak fares. We’ll be raising this with LNER to see if adjustments can be made to the pilot. It’s fair to say the pilot hasn’t received a warm welcome in all quarters. It is hard to see how the fares being trialled could be rolled-out to shorter-distance routes – even as a trial – as we know that on many journeys passengers rely on the ‘Off-Peak’ ticket to give them flexibility and a guaranteed ‘walk-up’ option at a relatively affordable price.

Transport Focus's permission is not required for operators to trial fares changes like this. We're pressing the importance of evidence from the trial is collected and reported transparently so people can make an informed judgement about whether the fares being trialled are an improvement for passengers. This must be done before any decision is made about making any change permanent or rolling it out to other routes. We understand that a full evaluation of the two-year pilot will be published, including an interim evaluation after one year. We will be monitoring closely to see whether or not the trial delivers better value for money tickets for passengers.

A speech worthy of Downing St. We understand your concerns!

 

[A S Leib]

It's travellers to and from Newcastle who are the real victims here. Scottish travellers do have some fairly simple alternatives available, but the Geordies are virtually trapped.

Grand Central via Sunderland's an option, but I don't know if that route typically shows up on non-split ticketing sites (and presumably wouldn't be offered at ticket offices / machines unless specifically requested), and the people who don't know about that option are probably the same people who don't know about the Manors / Haymarket work-around (as well as being slower and less frequent).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A speech worthy of Downing St. We understand your concerns!

It also appears they've not noticed that the 70 Minute Flex isn't offered on trains close to busy ones to avoid people doing exactly what they suggest!

As an aside it'd be nice to see other things added to the trial such as removing the £10 admin fee for all Advance changes, and maybe removing the break of journey restriction on Advances - if they're the main ticket, telling people they can't pop into town between trains is just silly, as is penalising people for starting/ending short now Advances are available for the vast majority of journeys across the network so it's rare to be able to undercut the fare for a shorter journey like you once could. LNER could do that on their own site/app at least. It's out of date when there's no actual admin to do.

(I'll chuck in a speculative thread regarding that more widely rather than just LNER, I think it merits its own, link will be here once I've done it)
Edit: here it is: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/advances-do-we-need-some-changes-to-t-cs.262320/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2024 ==

Grand Central via Sunderland's an option, but I don't know if that route typically shows up on non-split ticketing sites (and presumably wouldn't be offered at ticket offices / machines unless specifically requested), and the people who don't know about that option are probably the same people who don't know about the Manors / Haymarket work-around (as well as being slower and less frequent).

I'd not go near Grand Cancel until they are rid of the 180s. They're too unreliable and they refuse to follow the law on re-routing in disruption. I'd pay what LNER asked for, use Lumo or drive, probably the latter.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Transport Focus response

... We will be monitoring closely to see whether or not the trial delivers better value for money tickets for passengers.

If this consultation is like other TF consultations, their questions about affordability etc will only be asked to people that their survey team encounter on trains. That way, they will have avoided hearing of the unhappiness of those who would have travelled by train if they could have afforded it, but have been priced out.

This will neatly skew the results towards a comfortable-for-the-government conclusion, which we have come to expect from TF.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this consultation is like other TF consultations, their questions about affordability etc will only be asked to people that their survey team encounter on trains. That way, they will have avoided hearing of the unhappiness of those who would have travelled by train if they could have afforded it, but have been priced out.

This will neatly skew the results towards a comfortable-for-the-government conclusion, which we have come to expect from TF.

This is a problem with pretty much all surveying with relation to rail travel. If you're only surveying people on trains and stations, you only meet the people who have decided the rail offering suits their purposes.

Where you want to be surveying is at motorway service stations, coach stations and airports to find out why people are NOT choosing the train. It's the same with buses - don't be surveying at the bus station and on the bus, you want to be stood by the Pay and Display machines at the Council car park and finding why people are driving in instead.

 

[D6700]

With "Passenger Focus" like that, passengers don't need enemies!

They almost pose a question: "it’s not clear to passengers if the changes are intended to be revenue neutral or if passengers will pay more overall."

The LNER 4 year Business Plan, as can be found on their website, is quite clear:

Revenue Per Passenger
Maximising the revenue we gain from each passenger

 

[Bletchleyite]

With "Passenger Focus" like that, passengers don't need enemies!

They almost pose a question: "it’s not clear to passengers if the changes are intended to be revenue neutral or if passengers will pay more overall."

The LNER 4 year Business Plan, as can be found on their website, is quite clear:

Revenue Per Passenger
Maximising the revenue we gain from each passenger

That, and Horne has said in Modern Railways interviews before that part of the project was intended to increase overall income. It's definitely not revenue neutral!

I wish I kept them now to be able to quote it. Has anyone else got it, I wonder? I seem to recall it was in an LNER feature special maybe 6 months or so back.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Railfuture is calling upon LNER to reinstate the Super Off-Peak fare immediately

London Terminals to Manors Super Off-Peak Single £83.80
London Terminals to Newcastle Anytime Single £192.80

We really must stop these comparisons imo. Yes it’s a temporary fix for people but it’s not a real solution. This trial will be seen as a success due to the way they will manipulate results, then it will roll out to “and connections” too just lie single leg pricing (which isn’t all bad) did.

The reason for posting these two fares is to point out that £83.80 was the London Terminals to Newcastle Super Off-Peak Single fare so it is the London Terminals to Newcastle fare that has increased by 130% to £192.80 for the train services on which the London Terminals to Newcastle Super Off-Peak Single fare was valid.

Railfuture | Press release 4th February 2024

Railfuture

www.railfuture.org.uk

Note 3: Lowest cost always available fares on LNER:
Kings Cross to/from > Until today (time restricted) > From 5 Feb > Percent increase
Newcastle > £83.80 > £192.80 > 130%
Berwick-upon-Tweed > £88.10 > £193.90 > 120%
Edinburgh > £87.00 > £193.90 > 123%
LNER Super Off-Peak restriction in summary: Not valid for Kings Cross departures Mon-Thu after 02:59 and before 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59, nor for Kings Cross arrivals Mon-Thu after 04:29 and before 11:17 – extract from brfares.com (reporting National Rail data).

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't it 'simple' enough to buy a super off-peak ticket that you could use on any train?

The only complication being needing to make a seat reservation and hoping you can get one, but at the same time being free to just try another train and take that.

 

[route101]

What is the workaround for Glasgow to Newcastle and other ECML stations? I typed in Manors on the TVM and there was still just one way fares.