Wigan - Preston.

[Andrew Nelson]

A few Weeks ago, I was needing to get from Wigan to Preston, and did the usual Enquires at NW:

I was told the only fare between the two was a peak (Anytime). This being Sunday P.M. wondered how this was possible. I was informed that Virgin set the fares on this route. Now here's the crunch, due to there being engineering work, there were no VTs' running, and the only Train would be the Lime Street to Blackpool North, (Northern).

So, the questions are:

1) How do we have a privatised Railway, when one Company can set another's' fare structure? (Any other Industry, this would be a Cartel, Bus companies have got into a lot of hot water over this).

2) How can a route get away with only full fare tickets, with no off peak whatsoever? (Even during bustitution)?

 

[dzug2]

Virgin operate most of the trains - they get to set the fares. Usually. Loads of anomalies though.

It is open to Northern to set their own Northern only fare should they so wish.

And although that's an anytime fare it seems to be based on offpeak principles - return only 10p more. So maybe they couldn't be bothered to set a separate off peak fare at exactly the same price.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Virgin operate most of the trains - they get to set the fares. Usually. Loads of anomalies though.

It is open to Northern to set their own Northern only fare should they so wish.

And although that's an anytime fare it seems to be based on offpeak principles - return only 10p more. So maybe they couldn't be bothered to set a separate off peak fare at exactly the same price.

"It is open to Northern to set their own Northern only fare should they so wish."

Hmmm, never gonna happen, when You can get away with Pendolino prices, while providing a 142!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Looks like 50/50 at the moment.

 

[tony_mac]

1) How do we have a privatised Railway, when one Company can set another's' fare structure? (Any other Industry, this would be a Cartel, Bus companies have got into a lot of hot water over this).

2) How can a rout get away with only full fare tickets, with no off peak whatsoever? (Even during Bustitution)?

1) It isn't truly privatised, there is no real freedom for the train companies to compete - they have to do what the franchise says.

Unless it's changed recently, that fare is actually set by Northern! (as well as Wigan - Lancaster etc.) They decided there is no need for peak fares on this route, so they don't have any difference. I think there often isn't much need for a 'peak' fare when not travelling to/from a large city.

What Virgin usually do in the North-west is worse - they have an off-peak fare which is valid at any time, and a higher 'anytime' fare purely so they can penalise you for buying on the train.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

1) It isn't truly privatised, there is no real freedom for the train companies to compete - they have to do what the franchise says.

Unless it's changed recently, that fare is actually set by Northern! (as well as Wigan - Lancaster etc.) They decided there is no need for peak fares on this route, so they don't have any difference. I think there often isn't much need for a 'peak' fare when not travelling to/from a large city.

What Virgin usually do in the North-west is worse - they have an off-peak fare which is valid at any time, and a higher 'anytime' fare purely so they can penalise you for buying on the train.

I realy do like the way that fares have been "Simplyfied" don't you.

 

[yorkie]

A few Weeks ago, I was needing to get from Wigan to Preston, and did the usual Enquires at NW:

I was told the only fare between the two was a peak (Anytime). This being Sunday P.M. wondered how this was possible.

Is there a peak flow on this route? Are the trains full at any particular time of day? Is there really a need for Off Peak & Anytime fares on this route? Be careful what you wish for! York to Thirsk is a similar distance on the East Coast, and the fares are much higher, and there are Off Peak and Anytime fares. And, guess what? The Anytime fares for that flow are twice the price of yours, and for arguably a worse (slower, less frequent) service!

I was informed that Virgin set the fares on this route.

You are informed wrongly.

Now here's the crunch, due to there being engineering work, there were no VTs' running, and the only Train would be the Lime Street to Blackpool North, (Northern).

OK, not sure what you are saying here?

So, the questions are:

1) How do we have a privatised Railway, when one Company can set another's' fare structure? (Any other Industry, this would be a Cartel, Bus companies have got into a lot of hot water over this).

The question is worded wrongly. One company does indeed get to set the inter-available fare for all companies. Inter-available fares for buses (and no, I don't mean PTE products or similar) are quite rare! Are inter-available tickets a bad thing?

There is absolutely nothing to stop Virgin introducing their own VT-only fare at a lower price. They have chosen not to do this on the route (but have done this on other routes e.g. Stoke or Crewe to Manchester). Their choice. Given the fare is so incredibly low to start with, they may not think it's worthwhile.

2) How can a route get away with only full fare tickets, with no off peak whatsoever? (Even during bustitution)?

These so-called "full fare" tickets are incredibly cheap. The alternative would be for the current full-fare tickets to be re-named Off Peak, and a new higher priced Anytime fare introduced. This would "bring the route into line with other routes" (in ATOC-speak!)

There are no discounts for bustitution but on some routes little or no effort is made to collect fares.

By the way, are you posting from a mobile device or a computer?

I really do like the way that fares have been "Simplified" don't you.

"Simplification" is an entirely different subject, totally unrelated to this one. All that happened here is "Standard Day" became "Anytime". You can read my analysis of simplification that I posted at the time here.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is there a peak flow on this route? Are the trains full at any particular time of day? Is there really a need for Off Peak & Anytime fares on this route? Be careful what you wish for! York to Thirsk is a similar distance on the East Coast, and the fares are much higher, and there are Off Peak and Anytime fares. And, guess what? The Anytime fares for that flow are twice the price of yours, and for arguably a worse (slower, less frequent) service!

You are informed wrongly.

OK, not sure what you are saying here?

The question is worded wrongly. One company does indeed get to set the inter-available fare for all companies. Inter-available fares for buses (and no, I don't mean PTE products or similar) are quite rare! Are inter-available tickets a bad thing?

There is absolutely nothing to stop Virgin introducing their own VT-only fare at a lower price. They have chosen not to do this on the route (but have done this on other routes e.g. Stoke or Crewe to Manchester). Their choice. Given the fare is so incredibly low to start with, they may not think it's worthwhile.



These so-called "full fare" tickets are incredibly cheap. The alternative would be for the current full-fare tickets to be re-named Off Peak, and a new higher priced Anytime fare introduced. This would "bring the route into line with other routes" (in ATOC-speak!)

There are no discounts for bustitution but on some routes little or no effort is made to collect fares.

By the way, are you posting from a mobile device or a computer?

"You are informed wrongly."

By Northern.

And, the Question isn't worded wrongly either.

Just the answer is to a question You'd rather been asked.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Looks like 50/50 at the moment.

Off-peak, Virgin provide 2tph and Northern just 1 in each direction from Wigan-Preston

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Just rang Northern again, and Yes I was misinformed by them previously, Northern DO set the fares, even the First Class ones apparently.

 

[yorkie]

And, the Question isn't worded wrongly either.

Well, your question stated "How do we have a privatised Railway, when one Company can set another's' fare structure?" what are you asking? It sounds like you are making a statement that one company can set another's fare structure? This is not the case.

As I explained earlier, Virgin have chosen not to introduce their own Virgin-only fares on this route. Which, given the low fares to start with, is hardly surprising!

Just the answer is to a question You'd rather been asked.

That doesn't make sense.

Off-peak, Virgin provide 2tph and Northern just 1 in each direction from Wigan-Preston

If Virgin wish to bid to gain control of this flow, they can do so, by following the relevant procedure and presenting a case to ATOC.

To date, the only TOC I know of to have done this (there may be more I am unaware of) was XC gaining control of flows in the Banbury-Birmingham corridor. Once they had control, XC bumped up the fares and introduced draconian restrictions in the evening peak. Let's face it, a TOC is only going to fight to gain control of a flow if they are going to be able to bump up the fares a lot.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

[Mods note: Post removed, as it referred to deleted content. If you see something inappropriate please use the report button, which looks like this

, please do not quote it. Thanks]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Virgin wish to bid to gain control of this flow, they can do so, by following the relevant procedure and presenting a case to ATOC.

To date, the only TOC I know of to have done this (there may be more I am unaware of) was XC gaining control of flows in the Banbury-Birmingham corridor. Once they had control, XC bumped up the fares and introduced draconian restrictions in the evening peak. Let's face it, a TOC is only going to fight to gain control of a flow if they are going to be able to bump up the fares a lot.

Just to make it clear, I wasn't entering the discussion over who controls it, I was just commenting on the 'looks 50/50' comment.

 

[tony_mac]

You could quite easily do Lancaster (maybe Oxenholme)-Warrington ticketless, no worries.

Sometimes!
I did Wigan - Oxenholme return one day last summer, and had my ticket checked on board 5 times!

 

[strange6]

but they wouldn't as they would wish to protect Northern/TPE/ATW reveune at their respective stations - that is what happened at Coventry and Central Trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just to make it clear, I wasn't entering the discussion over who controls it, I was just commenting on the 'looks 50/50' comment.

Why couldn't they chip in together and get the place secured. They'll all win together then

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why couldn't they chip in together and get the place secured. They'll all win together then

I suspect its because Virgin are the operator of the station, I am not sure whether any others would be allowed to fund it. VT would staff it too, so they would technically in their eyes be protecting someone else's reveune.

 

[strange6]

I suspect its because Virgin are the operator of the station, I am not sure whether any others would be allowed to fund it. VT would staff it too, so they would technically in their eyes be protecting someone else's reveune.

lol It's no wonder the country is as bad as it is

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Well, your question stated "How do we have a privatised Railway, when one Company can set another's' fare structure?" what are you asking? It sounds like you are making a statement that one company can set another's fare structure? This is not the case.

"How can We", that is the opening line, to a Question, not a statement.

As I explained earlier, Virgin have chosen not to introduce their own Virgin-only fares on this route. Which, given the low fares to start with, is hardly surprising!

That doesn't make sense.


If Virgin wish to bid to gain control of this flow, they can do so, by following the relevant procedure and presenting a case to ATOC.

To date, the only TOC I know of to have done this (there may be more I am unaware of) was XC gaining control of flows in the Banbury-Birmingham corridor. Once they had control, XC bumped up the fares and introduced draconian restrictions in the evening peak. Let's face it, a TOC is only going to fight to gain control of a flow if they are going to be able to bump up the fares a lot.

Oh dear, Northern set the fares, therefore setting for other company's like VT and TPX.

Also, it wasn't Me who said

"Virgin operate most of the trains - they get to set the fares. Usually. Loads of anomalies though." I notice You havn't corrected them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why couldn't they chip in together and get the place secured. They'll all win together then

No, that's fine, just proves "Privatisation" is BS.

 

[yorkie]

Oh dear, Northern set the fares, therefore setting for other companies like VT and TPX.

Northern set the inter-available fare. As I keep saying, there is absolutely nothing to stop Virgin setting their own fare!

Also, it wasn't Me who said

"Virgin operate most of the trains - they get to set the fares. Usually. Loads of anomalies though." I notice You havn't corrected them.

You stated it first, so I corrected you. I didn't feel the need to do two corrections stating the same thing. It has been established that Northern set the inter-available fare.

The inter-available fare is incredibly low, and excellent value. I wish that all fares of a similar distance were of a similar price for an Anytime ticket.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Northern set the inter-available fare. As I keep saying, there is absolutely nothing to stop Virgin setting their own fare!

You stated it first, so I corrected you. I didn't feel the need to do two corrections stating the same thing. It has been established that Northern set the inter-available fare.

The inter-available fare is incredibly low, and excellent value. I wish that all fares of a similar distance were of a similar price for an Anytime ticket.

When did I say Virgin ran the most Services?

 

[Ticket Man]

didn't southeastern get away with scraping off peaks on their metro lines. sure its ok if you use oyster but for johny come tourist, its a bit steep.

 

[yorkie]

When did I say Virgin ran the most Services?

I'm not aware that you did?

didn't southeastern get away with scraping off peaks on their metro lines. sure its ok if you use oyster but for johny come tourist, its a bit steep.

Indeed, although that was a London-wide decision, taken to encourage Oyster use.

Wigan to Preston is a journey of some considerable distance, yet is priced lower than shorter distance journeys in your area.

Abbey Wood - London Terminals costs more than Wigan - Preston, for example.

And that's despite the trains being a lot faster in the Wigan - Preston example.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I'm not aware that you did?

Indeed, although that was a London-wide decision, taken to encourage Oyster use.

Wigan to Preston is a journey of some considerable distance, yet is priced lower than much shorter distance journeys in your area!

Abbey Wood - London Terminals costs more than Wigan - Preston

I never complained about the Cost (Yorkie likes to correct things that never got mentioned)

I simply asked 1) how fares were being set by what now turns out to be the minor partner.

And no off peak fare when it was clearly off peak.

A punter would see "anytime" and correctly conclude this was the most expensive fare. (as is, it's the cheapest too).

"Anytime" is usually used to label the top price. "Anytime" by definition means there would be a not anytime that would be less.

As for price, a Lancashire Dayrover is only £19 for 100s' of miles of potential travel, yet a single at £6.50 doesn't look quite as good value from that point-of-view.

 

[Ticket Man]

I'm not aware that you did?

Indeed, although that was a London-wide decision, taken to encourage Oyster use.

Wigan to Preston is a journey of some considerable distance, yet is priced lower than shorter distance journeys in your area.

Abbey Wood - London Terminals costs more than Wigan - Preston, for example.

And that's despite the trains being a lot faster in the Wigan - Preston example.

I can vouch for that, i sure as rain dont look forward to the abbey wood boneshaker every day :cry:

 

[Lampshade]

I suspect its because Virgin are the operator of the station, I am not sure whether any others would be allowed to fund it. VT would staff it too, so they would technically in their eyes be protecting someone else's reveune.

AFAIK, in Coventry it was because Central/WMPTE policy was no barriers as Centro were co-signatories to the Central Trains franchise. Virgin found they were protecting Central's revenue more than their own so demanded Central contributed to running them, who promptly told Virgin where to stick it

 

[yorkie]

I never complained about the Cost (Yorkie likes to correct things that never got mentioned)

Your comment "How can a route get away with only full fare tickets, with no off peak whatsoever? " is interpreted to me as a complaint that there isn't a lower fare off-peak.

Another interpretation is that you believe that there should be a higher fare for peak travel, however I do not believe that such an interpretation is likely If I am wrong, then fair enough, but that's not what the tone suggested to me!

I simply asked 1) how fares were being set by what now turns out to be the minor partner.

And no off peak fare when it was clearly off peak.

I believe you have comprehensive answers to those questions

A punter would see "anytime" and correctly conclude this was the most expensive fare. (as is, it's the cheapest too).

As it's the only fare, then yes you could say it is both the most expensive and the cheapest.

"Anytime" is usually used to label the top price. "Anytime" by definition means there would be a not anytime that would be less.

I don't believe that by definition there would be a cheaper ticket.

All Anytime means is that the ticket can be used at any time.

Cheaper off peak fares are not always available or deemed necessary. Where the Anytime fare is low, I have no problem with this. Of course if the Anytime fare was high, I would deem it unreasonable.

As for price, a Lancashire Dayrover is only £19 for 100s' of miles of potential travel, yet a single at £6.50 doesn't look quite as good value from that point-of-view.

Well, no, when you look at it like that, the single isn't great value for someone who wishes to get a lot of mileage. But someone wanting a single has little alternative. If you want a single then your alternatives are taxi (not viable in this case for such a - relatively - long distance), plane (not viable in this case for such a - relatively - short distance), or get someone to give you a lift. The railway knows it can charge a premium, in relative terms, to singles. I don't agree with it, but it's not an issue with this flow specifically, that is a railway-wide issue (with some exceptions, such as Oyster PAYG).

At £6.60 the Anytime Day Return is reasonably priced for a journey of over 15 miles (20 miles by road) each way, and lower than comparable fares near me on the East Coast Main Line.

 

[MikeWh]

A punter would see "anytime" and correctly conclude this was the most expensive fare. (as is, it's the cheapest too).

"Anytime" is usually used to label the top price. "Anytime" by definition means there would be a not anytime that would be less.

No, "anytime" by definition means that it is available at any time. There might be a "not anytime" which might or might not be less, but there doesn't have to be.

And I'm sorry, but the anytime fare is not the most expensive. According to a WebTIS powered site there are several other options, many of which make no sense at all. You have the standard class anytime at £6.50 single, £6.60 return; a first class anytime at £9.00 single, £17.10 return; Virgin only standard class advance singles from £4 to £13; Virgin only first class advance singles from £25.50 to £44 and an odd Virgin only ADVANCE 1ST single for £56.50. Quite why anyone would buy a first class advance which is guaranteed to be more than the flexible anytime is beyond me. The cheapest standard class ones are worthwhile if not returning, otherwise why are these fares available?

 

[yorkie]

And I'm sorry, but the anytime fare is not the most expensive. According to a WebTIS powered site....

Indeed! The OP is correct in terms of someone going to a TVM (ticket vending machine) but someone going online will see singles that cost more than the return that have absolutely no value whatsoever if you miss the train or change travel plans. But that's really a different matter, and is something I've certainly highlighted before. It's a deficiency in the online booking systems, combined with pricing managers not being conscientious and not applying common sense.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Indeed! The OP is correct in terms of someone going to a TVM (ticket vending machine) but someone going online will see singles that cost more than the return that have absolutely no value whatsoever if you miss the train or change travel plans. But that's really a different matter, and is something I've certainly highlighted before. It's a deficiency in the online booking systems, combined with pricing managers not being conscientious and not applying common sense.

At last. Yorkie gets the point.

 

[WestCoast]

Why couldn't they chip in together and get the place secured. They'll all win together then

I suspect its because Virgin are the operator of the station, I am not sure whether any others would be allowed to fund it. VT would staff it too, so they would technically in their eyes be protecting someone else's reveune.

It seems a bit of a cop out excuse for Virgin to me that they would be protecting others operator's revenue. Look at East Coast (or rather NXEC) in a similar situation in Darlington, paying for barriers to protect not only their own revenue but also revenue from Northern, TransPennine Express and CrossCountry. There are countless other examples of this. I think barriers at Wigan/Warrington would benefit Virgin's revenue the most, since Northern and ATW tend to find it easier to perform onboard ticket checks on the shorter journeys, something that in my experience Virgin really does struggle with (and with good reason).

 

[yorkie]

... I think barriers at Wigan/Warrington would benefit Virgin's revenue the most....

It would be far cheaper, and more cost effective, if Virgin want to collect those £6-10 fares, to employ ticket sellers who would go up and down the line checking & selling tickets. Barriers cost a fortune and still need to be manned.