Verona - Munich. Day or night train?

[Iskra]

I am contemplating a trip from Southern Italy to Munich in 2024.

I was originally considering taking a circuitous route to Rome and picking up the OBB direct night train to Munich from there.

However, I see also that there are DB day trains from Verona onwards. I could instead get an Italian night train from the South to here and then get the DB day train onwards.

Both trains appear to take a similar route, so the question is; is the scenery so spectacular that it’s a ‘must’ to do it on a day train, or is the night train a respectable option. This trip will be in June so daylight hours should be pretty long.

 

[Meole]

Only a 5 hour journey through mountain scenery on historic routes, no brainer for me, night through Italy makes sense.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Yup, the Brenner Pass to Innsbruck is most definitely worth doing in daylight.

 

[duesselmartin]

Esp with the Brenner base tunnel being build, one should do that route.

 

[peterblue]

I'd also recommend doing it as a day train.

 

[30907]

Agree, though I would switch to the Mittenwald route at Innsbruck if time permits .
Doing the length of Italy one way by sleeper would be worth it (my daughter has used it and recommends it) and can be very economical.

For info the sleeper goes via Villach and the Tauern, combined with the Rome service.

 

[Iskra]

Only a 5 hour journey through mountain scenery on historic routes, no brainer for me, night through Italy makes sense.

Yup, the Brenner Pass to Innsbruck is most definitely worth doing in daylight.

Esp with the Brenner base tunnel being build, one should do that route.

I'd also recommend doing it as a day train.

Thank you all for your unanimous responses.

What I may do however is take the Trenitalia Night train from Reggio Calabria to Bolzano and change onto the day train there to Munich, which could be the best of both worlds.

Agree, though I would switch to the Mittenwald route at Innsbruck if time permits .
Doing the length of Italy one way by sleeper would be worth it (my daughter has used it and recommends it) and can be very economical.

For info the sleeper goes via Villach and the Tauern, combined with the Rome service.

Yes, I do the Trenitalia sleepers at least annually and I agree they are good value. That's why it's probably better value to take the Trenitalia night train from Reggio to Bolzano and then switch to a day train there if that works out sensibly from a timetabling perspective and links in with a flight to England from Munich.

 

[peterblue]

What I may do however is take the Trenitalia Night train from Reggio Calabria to Bolzano and change onto the day train there to Munich, which could be the best of both worlds.

Yes, I'd recommend doing that at the night due to the sheer length of Italy, and the fact it's less scenic in the south.

Maybe consider changing from night train to day train at Verona if possible - it's a quaint attractive little town.

 

[MarcVD]

Esp with the Brenner base tunnel being build, one should do that route.

Is it already known what will happen to the existing line once the base tunnel opens ?

 

[30907]

What I may do however is take the Trenitalia Night train from Reggio Calabria to Bolzano and change onto the day train there to Munich, which could be the best of both worlds.

Do you mean Bologna - I can find a Rome to Bolzano at weekends, but it reaches Bolzano very early, and I would want to do Trento northwards (Verona ideally) by day.

 

[SeanG]

Is it already known what will happen to the existing line once the base tunnel opens ?

Regional trains will still go over the top Bute presses and freight would use the base tunnel

 

[Austriantrain]

Is it already known what will happen to the existing line once the base tunnel opens ?

As far as I am aware, the plan certainly is to keep the classic line open and use it for regional services and as a diversionary route.

 

[Iskra]

Yes, I'd recommend doing that at the night due to the sheer length of Italy, and the fact it's less scenic in the south.

Maybe consider changing from night train to day train at Verona if possible - it's a quaint attractive little town.

I have visited Verona before, but not by rail. It is indeed a beautiful place.

Do you mean Bologna - I can find a Rome to Bolzano at weekends, but it reaches Bolzano very early, and I would want to do Trento northwards (Verona ideally) by day.

Yes, probably. I found the 'Bolzano-Reggio sleeper' on a poor quality webpage with lots of typo's, presumably the original author meant Bologna which would make much more sense.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, I'd recommend doing that at the night due to the sheer length of Italy, and the fact it's less scenic in the south.

Maybe consider changing from night train to day train at Verona if possible - it's a quaint attractive little town.

Some of the South of Italy is very scenic, particularly the bit approaching Villa S. Giovanni and the train ferry.

 

[30907]

Some of the South of Italy is very scenic, particularly the bit approaching Villa S. Giovanni and the train ferry.

Agreed. The Reggio train also takes the old coastal route south of Lamezia, but at unsocial hours.
The optimum, scenically, for this trip is now the Sicily-Milan which has switched to the Bologna route arriving there around 0700 (if on time!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Bologna-Verona-Brenner-Munich early starter is at 0745, Munich arr 1427.
You'd have to be very sure of the connection from the Sicily sleeper, or have a Plan B.

 

[ABB125]

Is there an up to date, reliable list of Italian night trains, preferably including a timetable? I'm struggling to find anything, most websites just say something along the lines of "trains serve these places"...

(Something like VagonWeb would be ideal, but I accept that's unlikely!)

 

[peterblue]

The Bologna-Verona-Brenner-Munich early starter is at 0745, Munich arr 1427.
You'd have to be very sure of the connection from the Sicily sleeper, or have a Plan B.

There's another itinerary approximately 2 hours later, by changing at Bolzano.

 

[duesselmartin]

The Mittenwald route is currently very unreliable, the section from Mittenwald to Garmisch-Partenkirchen having rail replacement buses for months now, so Kufstein is definitivly safer.

 

[30907]

Is there an up to date, reliable list of Italian night trains, preferably including a timetable? I'm struggling to find anything, most websites just say something along the lines of "trains serve these places"...

Guess where?
https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/trenitalia-intercity-notte.htm
Not sure it's absolutely up to date, but near enough. Map:
https://www.trenitalia.com/it/intercity-e-internazionali/intercity-notte.html

 

[Iskra]

Agreed. The Reggio train also takes the old coastal route south of Lamezia, but at unsocial hours.
The optimum, scenically, for this trip is now the Sicily-Milan which has switched to the Bologna route arriving there around 0700 (if on time!)

The Southbound Reggio sleeper train does it in daylight in the Summer I believe. Although I will probably just do this bit of the route on the regional service for simplicity (and daylight since I'm travelling North).

The Bologna-Verona-Brenner-Munich early starter is at 0745, Munich arr 1427.
You'd have to be very sure of the connection from the Sicily sleeper, or have a Plan B.

The Sicily Night trains are often very late from my observations, so I'd probably look to travel on one of the ones that stays entirely on land.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Bolzano-Munich is very scenic for much of the way, though the part nearest to Munich is less so. (I think the Verona end of that route is too, but haven't been on the southern section for years.) My experience is that the two-hourly EC service on that route can be crammed at popular times (including with tourists with massive luggage), so a reservation is highly recommended [I don't remember reservations being compulsory] - indeed, 1st if you can afford it (which I couldn't...).

In terms of night train connections from the south, I believe the ones serving Verona and Bolzano only run to/from Rome. The ones from further south veer off after Bologna (to Milan or Venice). However, there are trains on the Innsbruck-Munich route starting back in Bologna, so it's still doable with one change. And there are various other Bologna-Verona-Bolzano connections if you decided you wanted a break in Verona or Bolzano to see the sights.

You refer to night and day trains from Verona to Munich taking the same route ... there's not really much choice! There's only the one main line from Verona over the Brenner Pass and across Austria to Innsbruck. The nearest alternative north-south route through the mountains must be getting on for 100 miles away.

The Brenner station is an old-fashioned border station (immediately on the Italian side of the border, I seem to remember) - the existing, fairly short, Brenner train tunnel is all within Italy. I presume there's a locomotive voltage change there; and it's also where the trains switch between left-hand and right-hand running. (A map I saw of the planned, and very lengthy, Brenner Base Tunnel - starting well inside Italy, and traversing almost the whole width of Austria before surfacing at Innsbruck - even has the tunnels crossing at one point, so that trains are on the correct side when they enter and leave the tunnel.)

 

[MarcVD]

The Brenner station is an old-fashioned border station

Also old-fashioned in terms of electrical equipment. There is no commutable section, just a voltage divide across the whole station, right in the middle. Trains that are not hauled by a multi-system loco must either stop before the divide, if they are short enough, or lower their pantographs and coast under the wrong voltage catenary. Locos are then pushed back into their home voltage section by italian diesel shunters. This operation is hugely unefficient and certainly costed several time the price of a switchable section since it is in place. I understand that commutable sections are now out of fashion because multisystem locos are now very common but 50 years ago they were few and far between - if I remember well, until very recently, neither Austria nor Italy did have any of them. When I have been there some 15 years ago, I only saw a few freight trains that crossed the voltage divide without stopping, hauled by a pair of TRAXX locos. All passenger trains (including the one I was on) had their loco exchanged and pushed back.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The Munich-Italy trains start being Railjets from April according to a number of sources including https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/munich-to-venice-by-eurocity-train.htm
Presumably those will be multi-system locos?

 

[duesselmartin]

yes the same Taurus locos will be used. The coaches will be new.

 

[ABB125]

The Munich-Italy trains start being Railjets from April according to a number of sources including https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/munich-to-venice-by-eurocity-train.htm
Presumably those will be multi-system locos?

Is there a good summary of which upcoming new ÖBB trains are planned to operate which routes, and what they replace? I've had a quick look online and can't seem to find anything detailed.
(I seem to remember reading a few years ago that the new RailJet sets were going to be used to increase frequency on the Tauern route (possibly doing Vienna-Klagenfurt-Salzburg? I can't remember now), is this still the plan?)

 

[Austriantrain]

Is there a good summary of which upcoming new ÖBB trains are planned to operate which routes, and what they replace? I've had a quick look online and can't seem to find anything detailed.
(I seem to remember reading a few years ago that the new RailJet sets were going to be used to increase frequency on the Tauern route (possibly doing Vienna-Klagenfurt-Salzburg? I can't remember now), is this still the plan?)

The eight RJ2 sets currently being delivered are to be used exclusively on the Brenner route, replacing the LHCS.

A follow-up order of 19 sets has recently been placed in connection to the Koralmbahn and Semmering tunnel openings (2026 and 2030 respectively), which will entail a much enhanced timetable. Where exactly those sets will run is not clear yet - Südbahn-connected definitively, I expect the Wien - Villach - Salzburg Germany line.

ÖBB have also ordered 14 Stadler KISS sets for longer-distance which will replace RJ sets on the slower Wien - Salzburg services (and I expect them to run from Bratislava).

A subset of Desiro mainline will, from 2026, run on Interregio services (the existing IC services Graz - Linz/Salzburg plus a couple of other lines), to be later replaced by Mireos in an appropriate interregional „outfit“.

That plus the new NJ sets are basically the long(er)-distance rolling stock plans.

 

[43096]

Presumably those will be multi-system locos?

They are multi-system locos now and have been for several years; ES64U4 “Taurus 3” locos.

 

[ABB125]

The eight RJ2 sets currently being delivered are to be used exclusively on the Brenner route, replacing the LHCS.

A follow-up order of 19 sets has recently been placed in connection to the Koralmbahn and Semmering tunnel openings (2026 and 2030 respectively), which will entail a much enhanced timetable. Where exactly those sets will run is not clear yet - Südbahn-connected definitively, I expect the Wien - Villach - Salzburg Germany line.

ÖBB have also ordered 14 Stadler KISS sets for longer-distance which will replace RJ sets on the slower Wien - Salzburg services (and I expect them to run from Bratislava).

A subset of Desiro mainline will, from 2026, run on Interregio services (the existing IC services Graz - Linz/Salzburg plus a couple of other lines), to be later replaced by Mireos in an appropriate interregional „outfit“.

That plus the new NJ sets are basically the long(er)-distance rolling stock plans.

Thanks, that's very helpful

 

[nwales58]

The eight RJ2 sets currently being delivered are to be used exclusively on the Brenner route, replacing the LHCS.

Will the capacity increase only come from the longer trains (9 coach), no additional services?