CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Anonymous10]

There goes my hourly service to Lime St!

I'd prefer a reliable service that isn't as frequent to one which is supposed to be hourly but is practically cancelled every time.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I'd prefer a reliable service that isn't as frequent to one which is supposed to be hourly but is practically cancelled every time.

I’ve just asked TFW on X and their response was:

Good morning, We are hoping to have an update on the timetable position today. We'll come back to you on this shortly once we have an update.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion with how the British rail network was developed there'd always be a few troublesome stations, that don't quite allow the 197s to fit their specs. For Ferryside it's platform height apparently, if so surely its better to adapt a handful stations than to have a train impeded because of a few stations.

It does seem to me that the Civity has a higher boarding step than 15x, you do see people struggling a bit to step up into them, at least on Northern. Can anyone confirm or deny that?

That said, surely these aren't as low as some of the Conwy Valley platforms? I guess the fix will be a Harrington hump?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Eighty-nine, good gosh. What with a shocking proportion of Great Western Railway services being cancelled (or truncated at Westbury) this week, it's looking like another dire day for Newport and Cardiff then. Almost all of Cardiff Central's platform and gateline staff are extremely rude too, and don't provide much help to customers looking to travel whose services have been cancelled.

I have found the platform and barrier staff at Cardiff Central to be quite helpful/accommodating. Maybe it is luck or my demeanour. But I bet they are snowed under with disgruntled passengers at the moment. Get shouted at a few times and most people become rather "defensive" in any future interactions. Get the higher managers on the front line and let them see the reality !.

In my opinion with how the British rail network was developed there'd always be a few troublesome stations, that don't quite allow the 197s to fit their specs. For Ferryside it's platform height apparently, if so surely its better to adapt a handful stations than to have a train impeded because of a few stations.

Re wheelflats I believe craigybagel has given us a decent insight into what may be causing it namely the power of the unit, the electric throttle (correct me if I'm wrong) and hold over driving tendencies from 15x stock. I would hope for this to settle down next year when staff are more familiar.

I do hope the problem with wheelflats is because drivers are yet to get familiar with how the 197s behave in conditions of poor adhesion. It is alright having all the performance but if the road conditions are unsuitable it takes delicacy, finesse and possibly forget the time table.

 

[Dai Corner]

I do hope the problem with wheelflats is because drivers are yet to get familiar with how the 197s behave in conditions of poor adhesion. It is alright having all the performance but if the road conditions are unsuitable it takes delicacy, finesse and possibly forget the time table.

One would hope that drivers were taught the appropriate techniques during their traction training, using some suitable location with the rails made artificially slippery?

 

[Peter Sarf]

One would hope that drivers were taught the appropriate techniques during their traction training, using some suitable location with the rails made artificially slippery?

I know what you mean but I doubt any simulation was very thorough. Real hard experience in the field probably takes an unpleasantly long time to build up.

 

[sd0733]

I’ve just asked TFW on X and their response was:

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If scroll on that link to the Liverpool to Chester route its in there now that it'll be January when it goes hourly

 

[craigybagel]

Re wheelflats I believe craigybagel has given us a decent insight into what may be causing it namely the power of the unit, the electric throttle (correct me if I'm wrong) and hold over driving tendencies from 15x stock. I would hope for this to settle down next year when staff are more familiar.

I do hope the problem with wheelflats is because drivers are yet to get familiar with how the 197s behave in conditions of poor adhesion. It is alright having all the performance but if the road conditions are unsuitable it takes delicacy, finesse and possibly forget the time table.

One would hope that drivers were taught the appropriate techniques during their traction training, using some suitable location with the rails made artificially slippery?

It not so much that the techniques required for driving in slippy conditions are different on 197s, it's the same basic principals at play on all trains around the world. You can only apply so much power, or so much brake, before the you lose adhesion. To cope with this, you need to use less power to get moving and brake earlier and gentler to stop again.

The WSP system on the 197s is actually pretty good at stopping the train, at least in my own experience. The brakes themselves are also fantastic. The issue is getting them going again. They have so much power and are so light (in comparison to their predecessors) that the wheels pick up so easily. And the automatic parking brake won't be released until you apply a certain amount of power - which is often enough to slide the wheels.

The actual problems may be different; I can only speak of my own experience as someone who's transitioned to these units, but that's where my suspicions lie.

 

[Envoy]

It sounds like it is a bit like trying to drive off in a car with the hand brake on and you have to give it so much thrust to get the brake to release. Surely, if my assumption is correct, that wears out the brakes quicker and increases the amount of fuel used? Why can't it be rather like starting a car on a hill start - bit of power & release brake?

 

[Railrunnerjb]

I have heard that along with the wheel flats, the tyres are deteriorating at an alarming rate and there have been rumors of cavities appearing in the tyres.

 

[BenBracken]

This may sound like a daft question but aren’t 197s and 196s basically the same train? Surely WMT experienced the same issues and things should have been ironed out by now?!

 

[Western 52]

Looks like around 83 cancellations tomorrow according to TfW journey check, so no improvement on today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Tomorrow’s 6am Holyhead Cardiff will be covered by a 158 as far as Chester where a 197 will take over, but with the Cambrian now back open, the “luxury” of being able to simply stick a 158 on a Cardiff based service where a 197/67/170 is unavailable as we’ve seen lately is no longer there. Were it still closed, perhaps there would be fewer cancellations. On one day during the closure no fewer than three 158s were working Cheltenham Maestegs.

 

[Envoy]

Looks like around 83 cancellations tomorrow according to TfW journey check, so no improvement on today.

And with GWR & Cross Country on strike, TfW would also have to carry their passengers.

The BBC Wales news on TV this morning just said that GWR were on strike with a limited service between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads (change for London). Presumably BBC Wales does not know that Cross Country have services from Cardiff Central despite having their studios within sight of those trains?

You would think that TfW would be urging people to only make essential journeys due to the other companies being on strike? (People from Bristol would presumably go to Newport to use TfW to get to Manchester).

So, just the time to have all this trouble with the 197’s.

 

[Jamesrob637]

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If scroll on that link to the Liverpool to Chester route its in there now that it'll be January when it goes hourly

No, it's going (back) to hourly from December from what I've interpreted there.

 

[sd0733]

No, it's going (back) to hourly from December from what I've interpreted there.

It's not. There's no interpretation to make!

To quote the link

"Chester-Liverpool (Via Liverpool Airport)

An hourly service will be reintroduced in January, returning to its full pre-Covid level"

"Ebbw Vale Line

A new Ebbw Vale- Newport service will be introduced in January. The hourly Ebbw Vale-Cardiff services will be retimed from 10 December in preparation fir the launch of the Ebbw Vale-Newport services".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

To bring it back to 197s! The units currently being used for training/testing in the South will be cancelled from Friday until January to enable those units to be used in service. This should give an extra 5 units to bolster the operational passenger fleet but obviously will delay training by a few weeks in the Long run but is a necessary evil the way things are.

 

[Diedinium]

Figure you guys might find this interesting, internally a post was made on the company Yammer that described the wheel flat issues the 197s have been facing alongside detailing when each unit is planned to come back into service:

197112 - 08/12/2023

197013 - 09/12/2023

197014 - 14/12/2023

197017 - 19/12/2023

197006 - 21/12/2023

197001 - 23/12/2023

197007 and 012 - 11/01/2024 or earlier if possible

 

[Peter Sarf]

Figure you guys might find this interesting, internally a post was made on the company Yammer that described the wheel flat issues the 197s have been facing alongside detailing when each unit is planned to come back into service:

197112 - 08/12/2023

197013 - 09/12/2023

197014 - 14/12/2023

197017 - 19/12/2023

197006 - 21/12/2023

197001 - 23/12/2023

197007 and 012 - 11/01/2024 or earlier if possible

Those dates are in groups. Suggests to my little-knowledge mind that each group is the result of a delivery of wheel-sets/bogies rather than a steady trudge by a wheel lathe ?.

 

[sd0733]

Those dates are in groups. Suggests to my little-knowledge mind that each group is the result of a delivery of wheel-sets/bogies rather than a steady trudge by a wheel lathe ?.

It's provisional slots on the lathe at Crewe ETD. Swapping wheelsets/bogies and sending them elsewhere was considered but would have turned out slower. Its in the same internal piece as the dates!

 

[AdamWW]

Can anyone explain how the wheel damage was caused by the storms in November?

 

[Dai Corner]

Can anyone explain how the wheel damage was caused by the storms in November?

High winds blow leaves off trees + heavy rain -> slippery rails -> trains skidding -> wheel flats.

 

[AdamWW]

High winds blow leaves off trees + heavy rain -> slippery rails -> trains skidding -> wheel flats.

To me, the implication of saying that trains are out of service due to storm damage is that if the storms had not happened, the trains would not need wheel turning and would still be in service now.

Is that the case? It's not the impression that I got from previous discussions.

 

[Dai Corner]

To me, the implication of saying that trains are out of service due to storm damage is that if the storms had not happened, the trains would not need wheel turning and would still be in service now.

Is that the case? It's not the impression that I got from previous discussions.

It's a rather disingenuous excuse I agree.

 

[sd0733]

To me, the implication of saying that trains are out of service due to storm damage is that if the storms had not happened, the trains would not need wheel turning and would still be in service now.

Is that the case? It's not the impression that I got from previous discussions.

The storms caused track conditions in certain places to be awful as masses of wet leaves came down in one go.
The slippery track then caused more slipping and skidding which damaged the wheels more than usually would happen.
There's always a programme of tyre turning but when a huge chunk of the fleet need doing in one go then problems arise as they can't all be done together.

 

[Envoy]

What about the Class 150’s & 158’s that also operate on the same lines as the 197’s - have they also encountered all these wheel issues?

Are both bogies on each coach are powered on the 197’s?

Are the Class 231 FLIRT trains having the same issues in south Wales?

How many depots have the wheel lathes for fixing the issue? Are all the wheel lathes in working order and if not, how long have any been not working?

Why is more effort not put into felling trees growing on railway land? I have heard people say that on the Heart of Wales Line, many of the views are blocked by the trains going through a wall of vegetation.

 

[AdamWW]

The storms caused track conditions in certain places to be awful as masses of wet leaves came down in one go.
The slippery track then caused more slipping and skidding which damaged the wheels more than usually would happen.
There's always a programme of tyre turning but when a huge chunk of the fleet need doing in one go then problems arise as they can't all be done together.

So - genuine question - this in fact has nothing to do with the 197s being more suesceptible (at present) to getting wheel flats and we'd be in the same situation if this had happened last year?

 

[sd0733]

So - genuine question - this in fact has nothing to do with the 197s being more suesceptible (at present) to getting wheel flats and we'd be in the same situation if this had happened last year?

In reality it seems highly likely that the characteristics of 197s did play a part too. Crew unfamiliarity mixed with a light, high powered unit on really poor rail conditions was the worst combination for autumn.
The lathe at Holyhead isn't yet in use so I believe at this point only Crewe ETD had the capability for tyre turning.

The fact that 150/153/158/Mk4s on the same routes haven't suffered anywhere near as much damage as the 197s which does indicate that they do suffer more.
The list above with the out of service units also seems to indicate the 2 cars suffer worse than the 3s. There are a lot more of them but all bar 1 being 2 car units does seem to point to the problem being worse on those.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197050 has been turfed off of 1W22 1357 Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly at Cardiff Central and replaced by a 150+158 combo.

 

[Envoy]

In reality it seems highly likely that the characteristics of 197s did play a part too. Crew unfamiliarity mixed with a light, high powered unit on really poor rail conditions was the worst combination for autumn.
The lathe at Holyhead isn't yet in use so I believe at this point only Crewe ETD had the capability for tyre turning.

The fact that 150/153/158/Mk4s on the same routes haven't suffered anywhere near as much damage as the 197s which does indicate that they do suffer more.
The list above with the out of service units also seems to indicate the 2 cars suffer worse than the 3s. There are a lot more of them but all bar 1 being 2 car units does seem to point to the problem being worse on those.

Is there not a lathe at Canton?

The wheels of the 197’s look a fair bit smaller than those on the sprinters. Surely, having to apply a lot of power to release the brakes on smaller wheels is more likely to cause wheel spin/damage?

 

[AdamWW]

In reality it seems highly likely that the characteristics of 197s did play a part too. Crew unfamiliarity mixed with a light, high powered unit on really poor rail conditions was the worst combination for autumn.
The lathe at Holyhead isn't yet in use so I believe at this point only Crewe ETD had the capability for tyre turning.

Thanks. So TfW do indeed seem (as often) to be being somewhat economical with the truth.