• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

Status
Not open for further replies.

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
"I don't agree with the law, so I will change the law".

Governments should be allowed to do this, otherwise they can basically side-step the law every time.

Er, yes, but not to change the law to something that is perverse and misleading

Reading that reminds me of Theresa May trying to get almost the same Brexit legislation through parliament multiple times, after it didn't pass the first vote. Until the speaker reminded her that you can't keep asking for a vote on the same thing until you get the answer you want.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
Er, yes, but not to change the law to something that is perverse and misleading

Oops, sorry.... I meant to say "Governments should not be allowed to do this..."!

Have edited my original post, hopefully it will be apparent to regulars that as someone who isn't the greatest fan of the Rwanda policy I'm unlikely to support this !

While obviously governments make the law, they should not be able to change it "just like that" because they've been defeated in court. That's very dodgy.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,139
Location
Redcar
While obviously governments make the law, they should not be able to change it "just like that" because they've been defeated in court. That's very dodgy.
They should be able to change the law where they've lost in court (presuming such changes are compatible with international agreements and human rights law, etc etc). That is, after all, how this is supposed to work. What they shouldn't be able to do is pass a law to declare something is being "all okay now!" when actually nothing at all has changed on the ground.

If they wanted to pass the "Rwanda Asylum and Judicial System Reform Act 2023" which would invest millions and provide specialists to aid in developing Rwanda's asylum and court system to address the issues raised by the Supreme Court which caused them to lose the case in the first place then I would consider that to be an utterly bizarre piece of legislation when they could spend the same money here in the UK to fix our asylum and courts systems. However it would address the loss in a constructive manner and then when they tried to next deport someone to Rwanda the conditions may well have changed such that the policy is now legal.

It's this attempt to circumvent the court by just passing a law that will, presumably, in effect say "Rwanda is fine, honestly gov, see we've passed this law that your reading and everything that says so" but not actually address the substance of why the policy failed that I'd object to. Particularly when the case didn't fail in a "Foreign Court" as Rishi claimed and also didn't fail because of the ECHR like the rest of right-wingers have claimed.
 

Cdd89

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
1,796
Or, even wilder thought, ask your child what they've learned and if you could have a look at some of their exercise books/similar materials?
I suspect that the parents this is aimed at do not have an open and respectful dialogue with their children…
 

JGurney

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2021
Messages
420
Location
Saltburn / Danby
Really? You find (4) extremist? You do realise that (4) defines a position that would have been seen across the political spectrum as completely uncontroversial and normal as little as 10, maybe at a push as little as 5 years ago?
Not at all. Biologists have know for well over 10 years that the term "biological sex" is too vague to be useful, as it could equally well mean either genotypical sex or phenotypical sex.
The idea that either could be "protected" does not make much sense as stated: they are descriptions of facts of nature. Someone might as well state that they wanted to protect Linnaean classification.
As for the idea that schools might be delivering secret lesson content that parents would know nothing about, that is just silly - children often do tell their parents what they do at school.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

there are numerous reports of schools refusing to share contents of certain lessons with parents, citing grounds that they are copyright property of third party providers.
By "share contents" do you mean tell parents what was taught, or send them copies of published and copyright materials which pupils saw?
Schools do have to abide by the copyright laws: to use an old-fashioned example, if a school has purchased a set of maths textbooks which are handed out at the start of lessons and collected up again at the end (then issued to other children in other classes and collected from them, etc, etc), then while it would be reasonable for an interested parent to ask what was covered in the maths curriculum, or to ask to look at a textbook while visiting the school on parents evening, it would not be reasonable for a parent to demand to be sent a copy of the textbook or a set of photocopies of its pages to keep. Buying copies of the textbook to give to parents would be unreasonably expensive, and photocopying it would of course be illegal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I didn't know you could make something safe just by passing a law saying it was.

Can't wait for the Plutonium is safe on your chips bill of 2024.
:D In R. v Leavett 1914 "Mr Justice Darling, in the course of counsel's argument, said they could not make a winkle into a fish by including it in the licence to fish, they could not make a pig into a fish. The Bible called the whale that swallowed Jonah a fish but the whale was not a fish". Leavett, prosecuted for fishing without a licence, had responded that the creatures he collected, winkles, were not fish. The local council replied that their fishing license terms stated that winkles were fish. The courts were not convinced and Leavett was acquitted on appeal.
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,064
Given that you've just (correctly) asked someone else not to perpetuate a fallacy, might I ask you not to perpetuate the fallacy that support for the Rwanda plan was based on 'spite and prejudice'? Personally, I supported the idea in principle (while having doubts about the practicality of this particular plan) - and that support has nothing to do with any spite or prejudice: I supported the idea because it seems obvious to me that if we are to break the horrendously cruel trade in people smuggling across the Channel, with all the deaths and suffering that it causes, then - amongst other things - we have to remove the incentive for people to want to pay the smugglers. Sending people to Rwanda would have partially solved that by removing any economic incentives for people to want to cross the Channel, while at the same time still providing sanctuary for people found to be genuine refugees (at least to the extent that Rwanda could have done that - the court seems to have found that is questionable).

There are other ways of deterring the small boats, many aren't that convinced that moving a few thousand people a year to Rwanda was actually going to put that many off.

Anyway deals with Albania are likely to have a bigger impact (i.e. any Albanian can be sent back home) for less money.

Likewise an international deal (say with the EU and the US) to house people locally to where they are displaced, where they can claim asylum from, would likely be cheaper still. In part as you wouldn't have to deport anyone, but also as you'd have lower costs and whilst you are likely to have to deal with more people overall (many are being helped anyway through aid projects) those costs are likely to be split between many more people.

A basic do they meet the threshold test is carried out, then a test to determine if they have skills needed for the sponsor countries (say Germany needed more miners and there was someone who was a miner they would get priority to go to Germany - although other factors could be considered). Then the rest are distributed to the sponsor countries based on an agreed split or are funded to live locally for a period of time (for example to enable them to return once a war is ended or an eruption has been dealt with).

There would be almost no need to get into a boat, so very few would do it, making it easier to catch those who did.

For those who actually have a genuine case, other than being here or being from a specific group, how would they apply for asylum currently?
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
They should be able to change the law where they've lost in court (presuming such changes are compatible with international agreements and human rights law, etc etc).
But should they though?

The whole thing smacks of something ever so slightly dictatorial. Why should a group of 350 unrepresentative people (all of whom are to the right of average, and many of whom are well to the right of average) be able to sidestep the legal system just like that?

Aren't there supposed to be checks and balances to prevent governments going rogue like this and thinking they are above the law?

It's worrying when government has so much power, and changing the law because you lose in court sounds very suspect.
That is, after all, how this is supposed to work. What they shouldn't be able to do is pass a law to declare something is being "all okay now!" when actually nothing at all has changed on the ground.
This seems to be the case here.
If they wanted to pass the "Rwanda Asylum and Judicial System Reform Act 2023" which would invest millions and provide specialists to aid in developing Rwanda's asylum and court system to address the issues raised by the Supreme Court which caused them to lose the case in the first place then I would consider that to be an utterly bizarre piece of legislation when they could spend the same money here in the UK to fix our asylum and courts systems. However it would address the loss in a constructive manner and then when they tried to next deport someone to Rwanda the conditions may well have changed such that the policy is now legal.
I guess that is a fair point.
It's this attempt to circumvent the court by just passing a law that will, presumably, in effect say "Rwanda is fine, honestly gov, see we've passed this law that your reading and everything that says so" but not actually address the substance of why the policy failed that I'd object to. Particularly when the case didn't fail in a "Foreign Court" as Rishi claimed and also didn't fail because of the ECHR like the rest of right-wingers have claimed.
And that seems to be what's happened here. Sunak cannot bear to lose and appears to want to change the law without changing anything.

All in all though, the incident has been the decisive thing to raise Sunak to no.2 worst post-war PM in my eyes, pushing Boris down to third place.

The sacking of Braverman has not improved Sunak's standing in my eyes one iota. In fact my opinion of him is even lower because he's hoping that act will make him look cute and cuddly, when retaining Anderson, appointing an "anti-woke minister", and changing the law because he lost makes him seem even more of a right-wing authoritarian than this time last week.
 
Last edited:

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
The new Home Secretary, James Cleverly, has been reported in various places as having described the Rwanda policy as "bat****" in the past. So that makes him go up a peg in my estimation, admittedly from a low starting rung.
It will make the right-wing faction seethe all the more.
Parliament can legislate to the effect that Rwanda is a safe place to send refugees, in the same way that it can say that the moon is made of green cheese, we all know that neither is true. How the former is actually accomplished will be interesting to see.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But should they though?

The whole thing smacks of something ever so slightly dictatorial. Why should a group of 350 unrepresentative people (all of whom are to the right of average, and many of whom are well to the right of average) be able to sidestep the legal system just like that?

Aren't there supposed to be checks and balances to prevent governments going rogue like this and thinking they are above the law?

It's worrying when government has so much power, and changing the law because you lose in court sounds very suspect.
I disagree.
Parliament makes law.
The courts interpret laws made by parliament.
In this case the courts rule that parliament was trying to do something which contravened laws it had previously made.
Parliament can therefore pass new laws to make its actions legal. It’s a representative body as defined by the way its members are elected, whether you agree with that or not.
It's not sidestepping the legal system as you say. Parliament is "supreme" so it can do this, as long as it does so by a proper and legal process.
Someone has to have the power to make laws, and in our system it's the government through parliament.
 
Last edited:

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
I disagree.
Parliament makes law.
The courts interpret laws made by parliament.
In this case the courts rule that parliament was trying to do something which contravened laws it had previously made.
Parliament can therefore pass new laws to make its actions legal. it's a representative body as defined by the way its members are elected, whether you agree with that or not.
It's not sidestepping the legal system as you say. Parliament is "supreme" so it can do this, as long as it does so by a proper and legal process.
Someone has to have the power to make laws, and in our system it's the government through parliament.

But isn't that open to abuse?

At the moment we have a very strongly right-wing government (I'm making this comment due to its apparent strong dislike of "wokery", immigration and the EU and its desire to wage culture wars - see the imaginary "war on the motorist", anti-trans overtones, etc). Is it right that a government so far in one direction from the centre should be able to legislate how it likes without any form of checks and balances?

I'd say the same about a hypothetical very strongly left-wing government, for avoidance of doubt.

Other countries have "senates" to sanity-check the government or president, is it maybe time we have something like that here? We have the Lords but they are scarcely representative.

Anyway I just hope people will see Sunak for what he is and the sacking of Braverman does not increase the chance of them winning yet again.
 
Last edited:

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,919
But isn't that open to abuse?

At the moment we have a very strongly right-wing government (I'm making this comment due to its apparent strong dislike of "wokery", immigration and the EU and its desire to wage culture wars - see the imaginary "war on the motorist", anti-trans overtones, etc). Is it right that a government so far in one direction from the centre should be able to legislate how it likes without any form of checks and balances?

I'd say the same about a hypothetical very strongly left-wing government, for avoidance of doubt.

Other countries have "senates" to sanity-check the government or president, is it maybe time we have something like that here? We have the Lords but they are scarcely representative.

Anyway I just hope people will see Sunak for what he is and the sacking of Braverman does not increase the chance of them winning yet again.
We also have the principle that Parliament cannot bind its future selves. If you dislike the actions of this government, vote them out and the new lot can reverse any laws passed.
 

alex397

Established Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
2,039
Location
UK
We also have the principle that Parliament cannot bind its future selves. If you dislike the actions of this government, vote them out and the new lot can reverse any laws passed.
It’s really not that simple. Even if a majority of people don’t vote Tory because they disagree with the policies (and bending of the law), their vote could be split between Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Reform and so on.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,770
Location
Nottingham
It's pretty much a certainty that the Lords will reject whatever Sunak tries to do, and it's probably too close to an election to over-ride them before then. Which makes me think the current antics are all for show, "we did all we can to get this through but were stymied by the ermine manifestation of the Blob". That also avoids facing the inconvenient truth that if this plan is ever enacted, it will make no noticeable difference to the number of small boats.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,802
On your day-to-day life, how many people do you come across that are even slightly bothered by this?? In my circles, zero, and that includes Tory voters in my badminton group and Labour voters down my local. Didn't even come up at the local Libdems AGM.

Really think the Tories are flogging several dead horses as there's stuff going on which is way more import and and being ignored. And now they can't win so they want to change the rules, which the Upper House might have something to say about.

When the latest polls come out over the weekend it will be interesting to see if there's any "bounce".
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
It's pretty much a certainty that the Lords will reject whatever Sunak tries to do, and it's probably too close to an election to over-ride them before then. Which makes me think the current antics are all for show, "we did all we can to get this through but were stymied by the ermine manifestation of the Blob". That also avoids facing the inconvenient truth that if this plan is ever enacted, it will make no noticeable difference to the number of small boats.
Boris Johnson (remember him?) suggested that the necessary changes could be accomplished through secondary legislation, but the government has confirmed that it will be done through primary legislation, which means that the House of Lords will need to pass it.
As usual, Boris blusters.
Anyway, it's going to be an interesting process now.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,990
Location
UK
It's pretty much a certainty that the Lords will reject whatever Sunak tries to do, and it's probably too close to an election to over-ride them before then. Which makes me think the current antics are all for show, "we did all we can to get this through but were stymied by the ermine manifestation of the Blob". That also avoids facing the inconvenient truth that if this plan is ever enacted, it will make no noticeable difference to the number of small boats.

Rishi obviously knows it won't work, but every time he or others fail it gives support for the furthest on the right who are able to use this to gain support by promising to ignore the lawmakers and 'take back control' or 'make Britain great again' or 'restore British Values' or some other dog whistle.

Fortunately as the polls always show, the supposed silent majority simply doesn't exist. They can use bots to generate more noise on social media, but at the end of the day, bots on X or agent provocateurs (often living abroad and meddling in our politics) can't vote.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
It’s really not that simple. Even if a majority of people don’t vote Tory because they disagree with the policies (and bending of the law), their vote could be split between Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Reform and so on.
This is undoubtedly true, but voters have become much more "sophisticated" these days, which is a good thing in my opinion. I'm voting against Conservative at the next election, so I'll be voting for the party most likely to win, which means Labour in my case. Even if I agree more with the LibDem policies, for example. There are many more like me these days I think.
In the past, when there was no chance of Conservatives losing, I voted for the candidate I most agreed with, which was either LibDem or Independent.
 
Last edited:

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,990
Location
UK
Correct. There are many websites that will guide people on the best way to vote.

Right now, there's a single aim for many - to get rid of this bastardised party out of power. It's finished and needs to start over, and they can do that on their own time rather than rearranging the deck chairs over and over again.
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,923
In theory, parliament can pass whatever laws it wants as previous parliaments cannot bind successors. However, our constitution is not codified - it is written through 1000s of parliamentary statutes and court cases, as well as relying on precedent and convention. What the government is trying to do ends up messing with some rather fundamental constitutional issues. The supreme court has ruled that the risk of non-refoulement should be judged on the actual state of things on the ground, not on commitments written on paper. Getting parliament to pass a law stating that "Rwanda is a safe country" will cut no ice. Also the issue appears to be one of "customary international law" as well as the specific international agreements the UK has signed up to in the past, some of which are critical to the operation of the NI Good Friday agreement. So the government appears to be on a hiding to nothing in continuing with this. Presumably it's simply trying to keep the Tory coalition together, which has been the main focus of Tory leaders ever since Cameron tried to "shoot the UKIP fox" by calling the EU referendum.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,990
Location
UK
The fact that the UK has accepted asylum seekers from Rwanda must surely play some role in proving that the UK can't suddenly pretend it's perfectly safe!

In any case, wasn't the whole deal based on the idea that we'd deport people there and take in someone from Rwanda in return? So all those people against immigration wouldn't be any better off anyway.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,802
It's been noted that the shift (if any) is Tory > Reform.

I saw something on twitter that explained if the current polls were to be reflected in the new seats, obviously Labour would storm home, but the Libdems on 10% would = 40-odd seats, Reform on 10% would = no seats. Much as I dislike the right; that's totally an unfair system, and wonder should there be a LD/Lab coalition PR would be on the agenda + the EU.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
It's been noted that the shift (if any) is Tory > Reform.

I saw something on twitter that explained if the current polls were to be reflected in the new seats, obviously Labour would storm home, but the Libdems on 10% would = 40-odd seats, Reform on 10% would = no seats. Much as I dislike the right; that's totally an unfair system, and wonder should there be a LD/Lab coalition PR would be on the agenda + the EU.
Reform UK should negotiate a deal with the Conservatives in which they would not stand a candidate in seats in which they could cause the Conservatives to fall from first place in return for a solid commitment to implement PR in the next Conservative government.
Right, not going to happen!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Guardian points out that proposals already exist covering "Accountability to the House of Commons of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords" dating from 2010, at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmproced/496/496.pdf and attached here.
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ly-rwanda-policy-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live) reports further on this proposal, which seems like a sensible approach to me:
David Cameron could end up taking questions from MPs in his new role as foreign secretary in special sessions in Westminster Hall, a cabinet minister hinted this morning.

Because he will be doing the job as a menber of the House of Lords, MPs will not be able to question Cameron in the Commons chamber. Andrew Mitchell, the development minister, will take the lead in answering questions there on behalf of the Foreign Office.

During business questions in the Commons this morning Lucy Powell, the shadow leader of the Commons, said a mechanism must be set up to allow MPs to question Cameron.

She said that, when Gordon Brown was prime minister and he gave senior cabinet jobs to two peers, Lord Mandelson and Lord Adonis, the Commons procedure committee drew up a plan to allow them to be questioned by MPs in Westminter Hall, the Commons annex used for minor debates. Those sessions never took place, because the 2010 election came first, but Powell said the government should adopt the same policy for Cameron now.

Penny Mordaunt, leader of the Commons, implied the government would be open to this. She said Powell should be “reassured” that this was being considered and went on:

Mr Speaker has taken advice on the matter. My understanding is that the procedure committee will be consulted on the best way forward. [Powell] alluded to some of the options that may be required of the new foreign secretary, who I know will want to be accountable to this house.
 
Last edited:

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,802
Reform UK should negotiate a deal with the Conservatives in which they would not stand a candidate in seats in which they could cause the Conservatives to fall from first place in return for a solid commitment to implement PR in the next Conservative government.
Right, not going to happen!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ly-rwanda-policy-rishi-sunak-uk-politics-live) reports further on this proposal, which seems like a sensible approach to me:
Do reform actually want PR?
 

Thirteen

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2021
Messages
1,904
Location
London
I have to admit it is strange for a Cabinet member in this case Cameron to refer to by their full name in the House of Commons.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,139
Location
Redcar
But should they though?

The whole thing smacks of something ever so slightly dictatorial. Why should a group of 350 unrepresentative people (all of whom are to the right of average, and many of whom are well to the right of average) be able to sidestep the legal system just like that?

Aren't there supposed to be checks and balances to prevent governments going rogue like this and thinking they are above the law?

It's worrying when government has so much power, and changing the law because you lose in court sounds very suspect.

Well, you're running into constitutional issues now. The reality is that, as currently constituted, Parliament is absolutely sovereign and as long as a bill receives a majority of votes in the House of Commons and Lords it will become law. The checks and balances are the Lords themselves as the "revising" chamber. They should vote down something which is clearly a massive problem and force the Commons to override them. But within the operation of Parliament that is about it for checks and balances.

I suppose if things got really funky the monarch could try to refuse Royal Assent to a bill. I dunno say something like the Electoral Reform Act 2023 came in front of Charles for Royal Assent but the effect of the Act was to cancel future General Elections until such a time as the Prime Minister decides to hold one again then he could theoretically refuse to sign it and it would therefore not become law. But we'd be properly off to the constitutional races at that point as a) it's not happened since 1708 and b) it's questionable if the power really does still exist.

But yes, you have spotted a key part of the way that the British system works. Between elections Parliament (and in reality the Government and Prime Minister) have near dictatorial levels of power with very few checks on their power as they can pass laws however they see fit as long as they can command a majority within Commons. So...

But isn't that open to abuse?

At the moment we have a very strongly right-wing government (I'm making this comment due to its apparent strong dislike of "wokery", immigration and the EU and its desire to wage culture wars - see the imaginary "war on the motorist", anti-trans overtones, etc). Is it right that a government so far in one direction from the centre should be able to legislate how it likes without any form of checks and balances?

I'd say the same about a hypothetical very strongly left-wing government, for avoidance of doubt.

...yes it is open to abuse. However there are some checks and balances through custom and practice, the fact that I don't think that enough Tories are quite far gone enough for there to be an actual majority for my suggested Electoral Reform Act 2023 to actually pass and more importantly, and topically, thanks to things like the European Convention on Human Rights.

Our membership of the ECHR provides important protections from a rogue Government. For instance my proposed Electoral Reform Act 2023 would, if passed, no doubt face legal challenge and would fall flat on its arse as being incompatible with the ECHR as Protocol 1 Article 3 obligates states to: "hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the electorate in the choice of the legislature".

Equally a Government could enact a Police and Justice Reform Act 2023 which allowed the police to use substantial physical force during interrogations such as beatings and allowed that people can be convicted of any crime if two police officers agree they're guilty. This would also no doubt be subject to legal challenge and would also fall flat on its arse as soon as it came into contact with the ECHR as Article 3 states that: "No-one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment" being allowed to beaten by the police during interrogations would clearly be torture or could be inhume or degrading treatment whilst being convicted of a crime by the police would collapse on Article 6: "In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law".

And this is why it is so important that the ECHR exists and isn't just a part of domestic law that a Government could amend easily at leisure. It provides a vital check and balance against Government overreach and excess state power against individuals. Of course it's not infallible. The Government could ignore it and not face much consequence, they could remove us from the ECHR full stop of course. But it being outwith domestic law is it's entire point. We saw what happened when Governments were not answerable to an outside check and balance during the 1930s and 1940s and decided that we'd quite like it if that wasn't possible again thank you very much.

It's also why I'm highly suspicious of anyone who argues that we should leave the ECHR and have a British Bill of Rights instead. The whole point is to ensure that the State cannot abuse it's awesome power and you want to make that same State the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't abuse of its power? Why? Why can't your plans comply with Human Rights? Because if they cannot comply with the ECHR then that suggests to me that there's something fundamentally wrong with them and I don't think you should be trusted if you so insistent on implementing your plan that you'd rather leave the ECHR than make it compliant...
 

SuspectUsual

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
6,857
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67446101 is a BBC article headlined "Suella Braverman: no flights before election under PM's Rwanda plan" and containing largely predictable criticism of Sunak's new(ish) approach.

It also contains the following (my bold).....

Mrs Braverman added that a bill should be introduced by Parliament's Christmas recess and MPs should be recalled to sit and debate it over the holiday.
In language tamer than her recent public interventions, she said there was "no reason" to criticise Supreme Court judges for their ruling.
Instead, she blamed "the politicians who have failed to introduce legislation that would guarantee delivery of our Rwanda partnership".


But would she not be one of those politicians who have failed? Is this a previously unseen piece of self-awareness on her part?!?
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67446101 is a BBC article headlined "Suella Braverman: no flights before election under PM's Rwanda plan" and containing largely predictable criticism of Sunak's new(ish) approach.

It also contains the following (my bold).....

Mrs Braverman added that a bill should be introduced by Parliament's Christmas recess and MPs should be recalled to sit and debate it over the holiday.
I can imagine many MPs would resent to having their holiday disrupted at the behest of Braverman.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well, you're running into constitutional issues now. The reality is that, as currently constituted, Parliament is absolutely sovereign and as long as a bill receives a majority of votes in the House of Commons and Lords it will become law. The checks and balances are the Lords themselves as the "revising" chamber. They should vote down something which is clearly a massive problem and force the Commons to override them. But within the operation of Parliament that is about it for checks and balances.

I suppose if things got really funky the monarch could try to refuse Royal Assent to a bill. I dunno say something like the Electoral Reform Act 2023 came in front of Charles for Royal Assent but the effect of the Act was to cancel future General Elections until such a time as the Prime Minister decides to hold one again then he could theoretically refuse to sign it and it would therefore not become law. But we'd be properly off to the constitutional races at that point as a) it's not happened since 1708 and b) it's questionable if the power really does still exist.

But yes, you have spotted a key part of the way that the British system works. Between elections Parliament (and in reality the Government and Prime Minister) have near dictatorial levels of power with very few checks on their power as they can pass laws however they see fit as long as they can command a majority within Commons. So...
Interesting discussion, as is your ECHR discussion at the end of your post. Yes, we absolutely should not leave it, for the reasons you have outlined.

It also illustrates the big flaws of FPTP and how it gives one party so very much power. It's absolutely not right that a party who achieves 40-45% of the vote can more or less do what it wants without opposition. Yes, it's unfortunate that when we talk of "Parliament" we actually mean Government. We have all those Labour, Lib Dem and other MPs and they can do absolutely nothing to meaningfully oppose the government.

The government are often keen to talk about "British values" and one of those quoted so-called "British values" (though, in reality, they are international) is "fair play". So how is it fair play for a party with 43% of the vote to have complete control of Parliament and do what it likes without any domestic opposition?
 
Last edited:

DoubleLemon

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2021
Messages
168
Location
Bedford
Y
Given that you've just (correctly) asked someone else not to perpetuate a fallacy, might I ask you not to perpetuate the fallacy that support for the Rwanda plan was based on 'spite and prejudice'? Personally, I supported the idea in principle (while having doubts about the practicality of this particular plan) - and that support has nothing to do with any spite or prejudice: I supported the idea because it seems obvious to me that if we are to break the horrendously cruel trade in people smuggling across the Channel, with all the deaths and suffering that it causes, then - amongst other things - we have to remove the incentive for people to want to pay the smugglers. Sending people to Rwanda would have partially solved that by removing any economic incentives for people to want to cross the Channel, while at the same time still providing sanctuary for people found to be genuine refugees (at least to the extent that Rwanda could have done that - the court seems to have found that is questionable).
You can kill the human trafficking gangs in an instant by setting up safe routes from various locations and countries. If you're genuinely wanting an end to the trafficking then you should be shouting from the rooftops for this.
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,448
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
Our membership of the ECHR provides important protections from a rogue Government. For instance my proposed Electoral Reform Act 2023 would, if passed, no doubt face legal challenge and would fall flat on its arse as being incompatible with the ECHR as Protocol 1 Article 3 obligates states to: "hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the electorate in the choice of the legislature".

Equally a Government could enact a Police and Justice Reform Act 2023 which allowed the police to use substantial physical force during interrogations such as beatings and allowed that people can be convicted of any crime if two police officers agree they're guilty. This would also no doubt be subject to legal challenge and would also fall flat on its arse as soon as it came into contact with the ECHR as Article 3 states that: "No-one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment" being allowed to beaten by the police during interrogations would clearly be torture or could be inhume or degrading treatment whilst being convicted of a crime by the police would collapse on Article 6: "In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law".

And this is why it is so important that the ECHR exists and isn't just a part of domestic law that a Government could amend easily at leisure. It provides a vital check and balance against Government overreach and excess state power against individuals. Of course it's not infallible. The Government could ignore it and not face much consequence, they could remove us from the ECHR full stop of course. But it being outwith domestic law is it's entire point. We saw what happened when Governments were not answerable to an outside check and balance during the 1930s and 1940s and decided that we'd quite like it if that wasn't possible again thank you very much.

It's also why I'm highly suspicious of anyone who argues that we should leave the ECHR and have a British Bill of Rights instead. The whole point is to ensure that the State cannot abuse it's awesome power and you want to make that same State the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't abuse of its power? Why? Why can't your plans comply with Human Rights? Because if they cannot comply with the ECHR then that suggests to me that there's something fundamentally wrong with them and I don't think you should be trusted if you so insistent on implementing your plan that you'd rather leave the ECHR than make it compliant...
Well said. I totally agree.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top