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HS2 Manchester leg scrapped: what should happen now?

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JonathanH

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Don't know if anybody say the BBC news at 6 tonight. They said the original cost for HS2 was worked out from a computer drawing. No survey was conducted on the ground. Unbelievable!
I suspect that is how most projects are costed. It is far easier to determine a headline cost from a computer than to actually go out and survey the whole route.

HS2 will go to Manchester on the WCML but wont be high speed.
That shows a huge amount of misunderstanding if it is meant to be news. Are the existing lines going to be rebranded as HS2?
 
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The Planner

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Throws the renewals at Crewe into the mire as well. That will get massively descoped and will just end up being a bit of WD40 and paint.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I don't like commenting upon media speculation which this week has now seen two different visions of HS2, but if the latest rumour about Birmingham to Manchester has any truth to it, how will this affect the new Manchester Airport station and how will the line run from there into Manchester?
 

SuspectUsual

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If I were in Rishi's position I'd press on with Euston rather than leaving a large, expensive hole in the ground in central London, a monument to incompetent administration at all levels. A reminder for generations to come.

Exactly. Decisions based on leaving the best least bad legacy in the south east.

A question - has the rolling stock been ordered yet? If so, does using SS1 rather than HS2 between Birmingham and Manchester mean the increase in journey time then means the service frequency has to be reduced because there’s not enough stock?
 

JonathanH

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A question - has the rolling stock been ordered yet? If so, does using SS1 rather than HS2 between Birmingham and Manchester mean the increase in journey time then means the service frequency has to be reduced because there’s not enough stock?
Curzon Street to Manchester with a token amount of HS2 isn't really going to be quicker than New Street to Manchester via Wolverhampton.
 

Starmill

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Don't know if anybody say the BBC news at 6 tonight. They said the original cost for HS2 was worked out from a computer drawing. No survey was conducted on the ground. Unbelievable!
Why's that unbelievable? That's effectively how all infrastructure is appraised at the first stage...
 

Parjon

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Sky news reporting this now.. again just gossip 'Sky News understands....'

HS2 will go to Manchester on the WCML but wont be high speed.
Baffling eh?

(Flashback) But Liverpool Manchester will still benefit from HS2 even if it doesn't have a dedicated line. I would be happy to support the city's case if it can "wash its own face" but clearly it can't...

For all the Mancs wailing for solidarity from their economically abused neighbours, it is par for the course they are now currently busying themselves trying to save their already skewed dedicated line by trying to get the Warrington stump to Liverpool scrapped, as cost savings. Even while claiming their lines essential contribution to "NPR". Talk about history repeating.
 

brad465

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Now got a BBC report:


Rishi Sunak to announce scrapping of HS2 high-speed rail line from West Midlands to Manchester on Wednesday, BBC understands.
In his conference speech, the prime minister is expected to set out a range of alternative projects in the North of England and Wales.
He is likely to argue these projects will be a better use of money and can be delivered more quickly.
It comes after weeks of speculation about the future of the line.
 

Starmill

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The Graun (Guardian) is reporting that Arup et al are now desperately trying to find ways to save money to sell the project to Rishi.

Consultant heal thyself.
More nonsense from you about consultants.

That's 10,000 highly skilled people's careers you're dissing. Most of those will have a degree-level qualification, or be on course to recive one during the lifetime of the project. Are you suggesting the idea is they work at current output but for lower salaries in order to keep the project going?
 

Noddy

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That includes all the design work, and almost certainly some boreholes too. 10% of the budget to get from idea to construction doesn't strike me as too bad, even if the amount in actual money is astronomical

It’s not at construction yet though. It’s still with the planning inspectors who haven’t made announced a decision yet, and could still request major changes or even refuse (these things won’t happen because it’s in the south-east and it’s a road, not railway).

But the point is 21st century infrastructure projects cost 10s of billions of pounds. Not millions.
 

Trackman

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Curzon Street to Manchester with a token amount of HS2 isn't really going to be quicker than New Street to Manchester via Wolverhampton.
I was thinking that too, and timings in general.
We'll just have to wait for an official announcement then figure it out from there.
 

HSTEd

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More nonsense from you about consultants.

That's 10,000 highly skilled people's careers you're dissing. Most of those will have a degree-level qualification.
A substantial fraction of the entire UK population holds a degree level qualification, that doesn't really make you some sort of herculean figure of genius in the present day.

Are you suggesting the idea is they work at current output but for lower salaries in order to keep the project going?
No, I'm suggesting that they design a scheme that minimses the amount of design work necessary, as has been repeatedly done throughout the world on high speed rail schemes.
The constant design revisions are well documented by HS2 themselves, endless optimisation works that are conducted in the name of saving money, which end up saving negligible sums of money.

A predeliction for design solutions that require the most individualised design work, such as large embankments, cuttings and green tunnels etc etc etc.

Several design iterations of tunnel headhouse, the tunnel design debacles etc etc etc etc etc.
 

Starmill

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Curzon Street to Manchester with a token amount of HS2 isn't really going to be quicker than New Street to Manchester via Wolverhampton.
It's so much further it will probably take slightly longer to get from Birmingham Curzon Street to Stafford that way than via Wolverhampton. HS2 trains could be quicker because they don't stop, of course.
 

geoffk

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Has the East Midlands leg already been scrapped or is an announcement likely on this as well?
 

Starmill

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No, I'm suggesting that they design a scheme that minimses the amount of design work necessary, as has been repeatedly done throughout the world on high speed rail schemes.
You mean like exactly what we had in 2020?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Has the East Midlands leg already been scrapped or is an announcement likely on this as well?
The Integrated Rail Plan included a stub to East Midlands Parkway but this hasn't been part of the hybrid bill brought to Parliament so no further work has been done.
 

HSTEd

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You mean like exactly what we had in 2020?
No, given that the design they thad in 2020 had all the problematic components we have today.

An unworkable Euston design, massive earthworks etc etc etc.
By 2020 the budget was already climbing into the stratosphere, which is why the cuts began.
 

Starmill

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A substantial fraction of the entire UK population holds a degree level qualification, that doesn't really make you some sort of herculean figure of genius in the present day.
Nobody's saying that though, are they? However you generally can't employ people for most of the roles we're talking about without engineering degrees. These aren't common among our population. It's very difficult to fill roles with experienced staff. Are you seriously suggesting these people could simply be paid less?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No, given that the design they thad in 2020 had all the problematic components we have today.

An unworkable Euston design, massive earthworks etc etc etc.
By 2020 the budget was already climbing into the stratosphere, which is why the cuts began.
Those clearly weren't really issues though. They were just excuses for the political opponents of the project to get some leverage in.
 

HSTEd

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Nobody's saying that though, are they? However you generally can't employ people for most of the roles we're talking about without engineering degrees. These aren't common among our population. It's very difficult to fill roles with experienced staff. Are you seriously suggesting these people could simply be paid less?
This would be true if you assume that, no matter the solution, the quantity of engineering design effort required to construct a railway between London and Birmingham (et al) is entirely fixed and independent from the solution selected.

The reality is that you can optimise a design for a given engineering problem for any number of criteria. Commonly this includes reduction in total cash cost or schedule, but many different criteria are available, both obvious and non obvious.

Consultant led design processes, in my own nuclear industry and in numerous other sectors, have a well documented tendancy to develop solutions that optimise for more engineering design effort. They do this because consultants are normally paid based on the amount of work that they do, rather than receiving a fixed price contract for designing a project. There is thus a powerful driver to run up the billable hours to obtain more money for the design consultancy, pursuing whatever scheme that they can think of to achieve this.

Often they will spend £2 on design work in an attempt to save £1 in actual construction cost or gained benefits. This is, for example, the primary reason why the Sellafield MOX plant turned into such a debacle. The plant ended up filled with additional engineered safety features that, in aggregate, cost a fortune to design and rendered the plant essentially inoperable. (In addition, in an attempt to save construction cost the plant was value engineered, by the design consultants, into far too small a footprint)

Modern high speed rial projects abroad have tended to adopt solutions that minimise the amount of unique engineering effort required to design and engineer them.
China and its identikit stations and viaducts, Spain with a less extreme version of the same thing.
Or people who turn increasingly to tunnels and the like to avoid the complexity of engineering surface installations that have to interact with everything else on the surface.

HS2 didn't really do any of these things, instead we see a railway full of cuttings, embankments and cut and cover tunnels. Exactly the engineering features that other railway engineers are starting to avoid like the plague!

As an aside, I too hold an engineering degree.

Those clearly weren't really issues though. They were just excuses for the political opponents of the project to get some leverage in.
Runaway budget increases weren't an issue?

NAO and HS2 cost estimates were running away even by January 2020
 

eldomtom2

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Unsurprisingly transit blogger Alon Levy is banging the "HS2 costs too much" drum (they were part of a research project into construction costs, and frequently denounce construction costs in the Anglosphere in fiery terms). Any opinions on their analysis?
It’s not yet officially confirmed, but Prime Minister Rishi Sunak will formally announce that High Speed 2 will be paused north of Birmingham. All media reporting on this issue – BBC, Reuters, Sky, Telegraph – centers the issue of costs; the Telegraph just ran an op-ed supporting the curtailment on grounds of fiscal prudence.

I can’t tell you how the costs compare with the benefits, but the costs, as compared with other costs, really are extremely high. The Telegraph op-ed has a graph with how real costs have risen over time (other media reporting conflates cost overruns with inflation), which pegs current costs, with the leg to Manchester still in there, as ranging from about £85 billion to £112 billion in 2022 prices, for a full network of (I believe) 530 km. In PPP terms, this is $230-310 million/km, which is typical of subways in low-to-medium-cost countries (and somewhat less than half as much as a London Undeground extension). The total cost in 2022 terms of all high-speed lines opened to date in France and Germany combined is about the same as the low end of the range for High Speed 2.

I bring this up not to complain about high costs – I’ve done this in Britain many times – but to point out that costs matter. The ability of a country or city to build useful infrastructure really does depend on cost, and allowing costs to explode in order to buy off specific constituencies, out of poor engineering, or out of indifference to good project delivery practices means less stuff can be built.

Britain, unfortunately, has done all three. High Speed 2 is full of scope creep designed to buy off groups – namely, there is a lot of gratuious tunneling in the London-Birmingham first phase, the one that isn’t being scrapped. The terrain is flat by French or German standards, but the people living in the rural areas northwest of London are wealthy and NIMBY and complained and so they got their tunnels, which at this point are so advanced in construction that it’s not possible to descope them.

Then there are questionable engineering decisions, like the truly massive urban stations. The line was planned with a massive addition to Euston Station, which has since been descoped (I blogged it when it was still uncertain, but it was later confirmed); the current plan seems to be to dump passengers at Old Oak Common, at an Elizabeth line station somewhat outside Central London. It’s possible to connect to Euston with some very good operational discipline, but that requires imitating some specific Shinkansen operations that aren’t used anywhere in Europe, because the surplus of tracks at the Parisian terminals is so great it’s not needed there, and nowhere else in Europe is there such high single-city ridership.

And then there is poor project delivery, and here, the Tories themselves are partly to blame. They love the privatization of the state to massive consultancies. As I keep saying about the history of London Underground construction costs, the history doesn’t prove in any way that it’s Margaret Thatcher’s fault, but it sure is consistent with that hypothesis – costs were rising even before she came to power, but the real explosion happened between the 1970s (with the opening of the Jubilee line at 2022 PPP $172 million/km) and the 1990s (with the opening of the Jubilee line extension at $570 million/km).
 

Starmill

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This would be true if you assume that, no matter the solution, the quantity of engineering design effort required to construct a railway between London and Birmingham (et al) is entirely fixed and independent from the solution selected.

The reality is that you can optimise a design for a given engineering problem for any number of criteria. Commonly this includes reduction in total cash cost or schedule, but many different criteria are available, both obvious and non obvious.

Consultant led design processes, in my own nuclear industry and in numerous other sectors, have a well documented tendancy to develop solutions that optimise for more engineering design effort. They do this because consultants are normally paid based on the amount of work that they do, rather than receiving a fixed price contract for designing a project. There is thus a powerful driver to run up the billable hours to obtain more money for the design consultancy, pursuing whatever scheme that they can think of to achieve this.

Often they will spend £2 on design work in an attempt to save £1 in actual construction cost or gained benefits. This is, for example, the primary reason why the Sellafield MOX plant turned into such a debacle. The plant ended up filled with additional engineered safety features that, in aggregate, cost a fortune to design and rendered the plant essentially inoperable. (In addition, in an attempt to save construction cost the plant was value engineered, by the design consultants, into far too small a footprint)

Modern high speed rial projects abroad have tended to adopt solutions that minimise the amount of unique engineering effort required to design and engineer them.
China and its identikit stations and viaducts, Spain with a less extreme version of the same thing.
Or people who turn increasingly to tunnels and the like to avoid the complexity of engineering surface installations that have to interact with everything else on the surface.

HS2 didn't really do any of these things, instead we see a railway full of cuttings, embankments and cut and cover tunnels. Exactly the engineering features that other railway engineers are starting to avoid like the plague!

As an aside, I too hold an engineering degree.
We've heard your arguments before about using more mined tunnels and fewer cuttings before and they've all been debunked. I appreciate your stamina but unfortunately you're not going to convince anyone.

High speed railways in China and Spain are very poor value for money. Much poorer than HS2 would be.
 
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