Alternative Options for Tourists when Travelcards are Withdrawn

[island]

Being totally dumb as to all things oyster and contactless, how are young children accommodated travelling by contactless as they won't have their own bank accounts and thus no card?

Young children age 10 and under are free of charge on TfL and select National Rail services when accompanied by an adult.

 

[fandroid]

Being totally dumb as to all things oyster and contactless, how are young children accommodated travelling by contactless as they won't have their own bank accounts and thus no card?

Children up to 11 years old travel free on London Underground, London Overground, and buses when accompanied by a paying adult. For older children there is a Young Visitor discount that can be added to a Visitor Oyster at TfL stations. Intending tourists can order the Visitor Oysters before travel. No need to land at the airport and be mystified.

 

[johnnychips]

Hardly. The fact is that at the moment there is no satisfactory walk-up ticketing solution for passengers arriving in London with children. That is hardly an obscure use case

I took a group of five Belgian students aged about 14 round London last week, and it was a real pain trying to find information on child options for tube/buses on various websites. However, three of them had contactless bank cards, so a journey from Baker St to Victoria just involved buying two child tickets, and the process was not really intuitive. The machine decided to only issue one but charge me for both - but that’s another story! I still have no idea of how I would make a bus journey with this group…

 

[fandroid]

They'd better choose their credit or debit card carefully, with international transaction fees and exchange rate weightings firmly in mind!

That advice goes for anyone travelling anywhere outside their own currency zone and intending to spend any money at all on anything. It's not just a TfL contactless issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2023 ==

I took a group of five Belgian students aged about 14 round London last week, and it was a real pain trying to find information on child options for tube/buses on various websites. However, three of them had contactless bank cards, so a journey from Baker St to Victoria just involved buying two child tickets, and the process was not really intuitive. The machine decided to only issue one but charge me for both - but that’s another story! I still have no idea of how I would make a bus journey with this group…

It's all on the TfL website which covers all the options for children including visitors. The magic words are "Zip Card" to find the info using a search engine. The page is headed 11-15-zip-oyster-photocard but covers rather more than that one item.

11-15 Zip Oyster photocard

Children aged 11-15 can get free and discounted travel on all our transport with a Zip Oyster photocard.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[jon81uk]

Not in the same way as an unlimited-travel card, though. For example:

• What happens if you enter a station and then change your mind or find there are no trains running? I think, from what I read a while ago, that you either have to leave again within 2 minutes, or make sure that you don't leave until after 2 minutes, depending on whether you plan to use a train from an alternative station or not (but I can't remember which way round it is).
• I understand that there are circumstances when it's advantageous to touch in on a bus which you have no intention of using.
• Travelcards don't have maximum journey times (even if these don't affect many journeys, it's one more thing to worry about, especially for confused tourists getting on the wrong train).
• If you get something wrong, the only way to avoid being overcharged is to spend time phoning up a call centre to try and get it sorted out.
• There's a large unofficial website (https://oysterfares.com/) devoted to explaining the system, including a whole page just about how to change at Wimbledon.

Maybe it's all obvious if you're used to it, but not everyone is (especially visitors).

Before living in London I travelled down multiple times when Oyster was quite new and I never considered getting a paper ticket, just tap in and tap out. It’s so simple and don’t need to consider what zones I need or where to buy a ticket. I’ve never even considered maximum journey times either and I expect 99.999% of LU users don’t either. Yes there is a lot of minute details to many transport fares but the average user never needs know them.

 

[johnnychips]

It's all on the TfL website which covers all the options for children including visitors. The magic words are "Zip Card" to find the info using a search engine. The page is headed 11-15-zip-oyster-photocard but covers rather more than that one item.

11-15 Zip Oyster photocard

Children aged 11-15 can get free and discounted travel on all our transport with a Zip Oyster photocard.

tfl.gov.uk

This implies a £15 admin fee, and a lot of forward planning for Belgian parents just so they can use the odd bus or Tube during the day. I think I will suggest to my managers that they ask students to bring a contactless card, even if this means they pay adult fares.

 

[181]

Before living in London I travelled down multiple times when Oyster was quite new and I never considered getting a paper ticket, just tap in and tap out. It’s so simple and don’t need to consider what zones I need or where to buy a ticket. I’ve never even considered maximum journey times either and I expect 99.999% of LU users don’t either. Yes there is a lot of minute details to many transport fares but the average user never needs know them.

Getting to the platform before discovering that there are no trains running, and changing at Wimbledon, are both real examples from journeys that I've made in the past few years. Fortunately in the first case I had paper one day travelcard -- I'd have had no idea how to ensure I paid the right amount if I'd been using Oyster or contactless -- and in the second (when I was using Oyster) I knew from reading these forums that there were complications that I need to reserch beforehand. (I think there may now be signs at Wimbledon to explain what to do, but that's addressing a problem created by the system).

 

[urpert]

Brussels also accepts contactless and it works well - although it is a much simpler fare structure of €2.10 per journey, with capping at €7.50 a day. Their oyster equivalent is cheaper though, the card costs €5 and then a 10 trip ticket can be bought for €16.80

I successfully used contactless in both Brussels and Antwerp this summer, though I’m not sure Antwerp has a cap - however you’re not charged for subsequent touches (when changing trams for example) within an hour of beginning your journey.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I successfully used contactless in both Brussels and Antwerp this summer, though I’m not sure Antwerp has a cap

Someone helpfully told me on here that there is a cap, it certainly wasn't obvious. Also worked well in Lyon, although some of the paramilitary revenue inspectors weren't used to it yet... The problem in London remains not so much child fares (are they necessary? No cheap travel in Paris over 10 years old for instance) as how children should pay the fare. Oyster is really required for that, as are enough people or machines at stations at the points of entry to the network to easily issue the cards. Same for what should be a small and decreasing proportion of arriving adults who can't use contactless

 

[urbophile]

Same for what should be a small and decreasing proportion of arriving adults who can't use contactless

Assuming that this thread is about British as well as foreign tourists, people with railcards can have the discount applied to an Oyster card but not contactless. So it's not a question of inability to use contactless but the fact that you are penalised if you do. A small proportion maybe but I doubt if it's decreasing.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

people with railcards can have the discount applied to an Oyster card but not contactless

Good point... I'm assuming that Oyster is required, so it would be there for that. But I really think that Railcard discounts on contactless could and should have been possible by now, as they already are for some of the TOC PAYG schemes, who also have no way to prove entitlement at the point of checking the ticket, unless online

 

[LiftFan]

It’s an incredibly niche thing, but I’m just wondering what to do after travelcards are withdrawn for days in London? I tend to travel on trains, trams, DLR, and tube and spending a long time inside the system. I’ve tried oyster before which has my 16-25 railcard on it but I found myself spending a colossal amount on the maximum times. A day travel card is perfect for it and I haven’t a clue how I’ll be able to travel this way around London again.

 

[Vespa]

It’s an incredibly niche thing, but I’m just wondering what to do after travelcards are withdrawn for days in London? I tend to travel on trains, trams, DLR, and tube and spending a long time inside the system. I’ve tried oyster before which has my 16-25 railcard on it but I found myself spending a colossal amount on the maximum times. A day travel card is perfect for it and I haven’t a clue how I’ll be able to travel this way around London again.

You could get zone 1-4 loaded on your oyster and use cash credit for the occasional outside zone trip.

 

[MikeWh]

You could get zone 1-4 loaded on your oyster and use cash credit for the occasional outside zone trip.

The zone 1-4 would be a weekly travelcard.

 

[Vespa]

The zone 1-4 would be a weekly travelcard.

Unfortunately yes, as I understand it, once the 1 day travelcard is withdrawn this would be the best option if you don't want to use the daily cap on contactless.

 

[Haywain]

I tend to travel on trains, trams, DLR, and tube and spending a long time inside the system. I’ve tried oyster before which has my 16-25 railcard on it but I found myself spending a colossal amount on the maximum times. A day travel card is perfect for it and I haven’t a clue how I’ll be able to travel this way around London again.

The simple answer is you'll have to leave the system occasionally in order to avoid being charged maximum fares.

 

[LiftFan]

The simple answer is you'll have to leave the system occasionally in order to avoid being charged maximum fares.

Issue I’ve had is I’ve been charged the max fare twice just by entering, doing the entire Piccadilly line and exiting.

 

[Haywain]

Issue I’ve had is I’ve been charged the max fare twice just by entering, doing the entire Piccadilly line and exiting.

Exiting at the other end or back where you started? You will need to be aware of maximum journey times and how they work, as well as the consequences of doing things the right way.

 

[MikeWh]

Issue I’ve had is I’ve been charged the max fare twice just by entering, doing the entire Piccadilly line and exiting.

Have you had a look at my website (link in signature)? Especially the maximum journey times page.

If you did Cockfosters to Uxbridge and straight back then you would get two maximum fares. If you touched out and back in at Uxbridge then you'd get two normal single fares.

 

[LiftFan]

Have you had a look at my website (link in signature)? Especially the maximum journey times page.

If you did Cockfosters to Uxbridge and straight back then you would get two maximum fares. If you touched out and back in at Uxbridge then you'd get two normal single fares.

It was just a one way trip, although after tapping in at Uxbridge I did have to wait a little while for the right service to show up.

 

[MikeWh]

It was just a one way trip, although after tapping in at Uxbridge I did have to wait a little while for the right service to show up.

How long did you have to wait? What was the trip and how long did it take? It's very rare for a normal single journey to exceed maximum journey time, especially whan coming in from zones 5/6.

 

[LiftFan]

How long did you have to wait? What was the trip and how long did it take? It's very rare for a normal single journey to exceed maximum journey time, especially whan coming in from zones 5/6.

If I remember correctly about 20 minutes? Just missed one, skipped the Arnos Grove terminator and then got the Cockfosters service which took its normal time. I did get the money back on my oyster when I disputed the incomplete journeys on the website but it was very irritating I had to do that.

 

[MikeWh]

If I remember correctly about 20 minutes? Just missed one, skipped the Arnos Grove terminator and then got the Cockfosters service which took its normal time. I did get the money back on my oyster when I disputed the incomplete journeys on the website but it was very irritating I had to do that.

OK, I'm glad you got the money back. That was an unfortunate situation. Uxbridge to Cockfosters is a 10 zone journey (6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3-4-5) so you are allowed 160 minutes to complete it in weekday daytimes, and longer in the evenings or at weekends.

My advice for that kind of situation is not to let another train go. There will be other Cockfosters trains coming from Heathrow which you might have been able to get by changing after Acton. If the desire was to do one train from end to end, then don't touch in until the train is nearer ready to leave. You were unlucky with that one though.

 

[Flying Snail]

Of course the very simple solution would be for TfL to offer a day travelcard option on oyster, or ITSO for outboundary travelcards, or even as single use contactless cards that numerous other transport operators issue.

As I understand it there is no technical obstacle to selling a day travelcard on oyster, it is just that they just don't want to do it.

 

[Wolfie]

The great beauty of this country is we're entitled to our opinion without censure, the Brexit argument is done, retreading it serves no purpose.

In any democracy no argument is ever done. Parliament and the people have an absolute right to revisit any issue where it is blindingly apparent that a mistake has been made. That may, of course, take a while.

As l wish to stay on topic l would say that the paper Travelcard decision is such an issue. They just might stay if TfL got a more equitable share of the total price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2023 ==

Of course the very simple solution would be for TfL to offer a day travelcard option on oyster, or ITSO for outboundary travelcards, or even as single use contactless cards that numerous other transport operators issue.

As I understand it there is no technical obstacle to selling a day travelcard on oyster, it is just that they just don't want to do it.

I don't understand what a daily inboundary Travelcard on Oyster would offer that capping doesn't. When it comes to daily outboundary Travelcards changing the medium doesn't resolve the TfL proportion of fares issue.

 

[MikeWh]

Of course the very simple solution would be for TfL to offer a day travelcard option on oyster, or ITSO for outboundary travelcards, or even as single use contactless cards that numerous other transport operators issue.

As I understand it there is no technical obstacle to selling a day travelcard on oyster, it is just that they just don't want to do it.

Their belief is that many people do not actually use a full day travelcard.

I don't understand what a daily inboundary Travelcard on Oyster would offer that capping doesn't. When it comes to daily outboundary Travelcards changing the medium doesn't resolve the TfL proportion of fares issue.

Absolutely. Out boundary day travelcards are already available on ITSO smartcards, as indeed are inboundary ones. The problem is the share that TfL get from the sale of such tickets.

 

[Haywain]

I don't understand what a daily inboundary Travelcard on Oyster would offer that capping doesn't.

The only benefit is that a tiny number of enthusiasts would be able to spend all day inside the system without worrying about maximum journey times and the associated charges.

 

[Deerfold]

The only benefit is that a tiny number of enthusiasts would be able to spend all day inside the system without worrying about maximum journey times and the associated charges.

And people who forgot to tap out at a DLR station wouldn't get a maximum fare.

 

[Wolfie]

The only benefit is that a tiny number of enthusiasts would be able to spend all day inside the system without worrying about maximum journey times and the associated charges.

Ah, hence the interest from some on here..... sorry but TfL ain't going to spend millions to pander to your hobby....

 

[mike57]

I think Hadders means London style contactless where no special product is needed and you can just use an ordinary bank card.

For Paris you can load the Navigo on to your phone with no separate card needed if it has the right hardware, most later models Samsungs are fine (other makes may work... no personal experience), last year you couldn't use an iPhone but this may have been sorted.

You can also top up a physical navigo pass using your phone if it can read and write to the card, again depends on phone hardware, most later model phones are OK.

Both solutions mean you arrive with your onward travel sorted, avoiding the queues and general mayhem at places like Gare du Nord.

Thinking about the London situation:

A lot of cards have a minimum fee which is applied to even the smallest transaction.

To be honest as a foreign visitor I would rather just pay a simple daily charge, that I understood. I am not going to want to navigate the complexities of the current contactless system in London particularly if English isnt my first language. No it wouldn't stop me visiting, but it is part of the overall 'impression' that you get of a tourist destination.