Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[DunsBus]

You’re also making the rather pointless suggestion in saying that Lothian should move away from their Volvo loyalty. It’d be like asking Stagecoach from 10 years ago not to order anything from ADL. It just wouldn’t happen. This ultimately is something that goes back to the days of Leyland. No doubt Lothian’s continual loyalty to Volvo will have resulted in a better value order along with keeping the fleet streamlined with all the same aspects of customer care included too. Lothian will I think in time could end up with well over 250 of these BZL’s which would be around a third of the entire fleet.

Lothian and their predecessors have historically tended to go for a single make. In ECT days this was Leyland for buses and Bedford for coaches whilst under LRT it was (largely) Leylands for everything until they were no longer available.
And it has a lot of clout when coming to ordering buses. I remember being told that when LRT ordered its 12 dual-door Lynxes back in 1990, Volvo was initially unwilling to build them and tried to get it to take stock-build buses. A threat from LRT that it would take its future vehicle orders elsewhere saw Volvo change its mind.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Goodness I'd forgotten about those, are any in preservation and if so are they in working condition as I'd absolutely love another spin


I always deep down thought that Lothian would wait for a Volvo offering on the electric market before placing a big order, when the four b y d e 400 turned up I was slightly surprised as I thought they might only take a couple but was far less surprised to find that they really don't fit with lowly ins operations and we'll be equally unsurprised to find the operators who have bought these in numbers don't start having problems with them down the line and ultimately have to replace early or make expensive modifications

 

[stevenedin]

Goodness I'd forgotten about those, are any in preservation and if so are they in working condition as I'd absolutely love another spin


I always deep down thought that Lothian would wait for a Volvo offering on the electric market before placing a big order, when the four b y d e 400 turned up I was slightly surprised as I thought they might only take a couple but was far less surprised to find that they really don't fit with lowly ins operations and we'll be equally unsurprised to find the operators who have bought these in numbers don't start having problems with them down the line and ultimately have to replace early or make expensive modifications

188 was preserved.

Leyland Lynx H188 OSG

Leyland’s final bus design B-60 Lynx was the most advanced vehicle produced by the company. Sadly due to the scrapping of the government bus grant and constant government pressure for privatisation in both bus fleets across Britain and within Leyland its self lead to the life of the Lynx being...

www.flickr.com

 

[Vectron383]

Do we think it’s safe to assume the 50 BZLs will be replacing the 351-399 batch of vehicles?

 

[stevenedin]

Do we think it’s safe to assume the 50 BZLs will be replacing the 351-399 batch of vehicles?

If they are replacing the oldest buses in the fleet it could be any of 841-850, 351-389, 391-400, 936-960, 1000-1028, 1030-1050 & 1141-1153 unless they are replacing any of 172, 176-190, 1-10 & 12-50 which I can’t see them doing that.

 

[Vectron383]

I think the ‘native’ 11-plate Gemini 2s are most likely the choice for replacement. I’d be interested to see the fleet numbers the new vehicles get.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The 7, 8, 9, 23 and 24 are most likely as they're the routes that electrics frequent.


I'm not gonna defend the BYD Enviros because they definitely aren't the best products but climate change and public health aren't going to wait until products improve, it's about making the best of what we've got. BYD electrics have still managed to do a decent job in many places and regardless of their build quality and range, will have still contributed to pollution reduction - Edinburgh's streets are some of the worst in the country for fine particle pollution (and nitrogen dioxide, to a lesser extent). The fact that Edinburgh has only four zero emission vehicles (not counting the Streetairs which have been gathering dust at the back of Central for a few years) while Glasgow will soon have over 200 just isn't a good look. Waiting for a better product has subjected Edinburgh's residents, workers and tourists to worse pollution than they would have if Lothian had settled for something decent in the interim, like most other large operators in the UK.

Our fleet is fully Euro 6? Hardly a problem, you should be more interested in the lorries and cars on the road polluting not a full fleet of Euro 6 buses. No point spending money on an awful interim product just to tick a box

 

[stevenedin]

I think the ‘native’ 11-plate Gemini 2s are most likely the choice for replacement. I’d be interested to see the fleet numbers the new vehicles get.

They will probably start at 700 or 701 leading on from the last batch of double deckers.

 

[GusB]

A reminder - speculative posts should be made here:

Edinburgh & the Lothians bus network speculations & ideas

I have created this thread so that we can discuss ideas for new buses, bus routes etc so that they aren’t in the main threads under each operator as not everyone likes to see them. There is a lot of discussion (mainly under both threads for McGill’s Scotland East and Lothian Group) and I feel...

www.railforums.co.uk

This includes discussion about which fleet numbers the BZLs will carry once they're delivered, which services they'll operate on, etc.

 

[DespacitoPlayz]

They will probably start at 700 or 701 leading on from the last batch of double deckers.

The one that was seen in the post was listed with 997. Probably in that number range, or that might just be to cover for the Streetdeck Electroliner.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The one that was seen in the post was listed with 997. Probably in that number range, or that might just be to cover for the Streetdeck Electroliner.

997-999 are demonstrator numbers. Of course 997 was on demo with Lothian earlier this year for several months, the image being taken at ALBUM conference.

 

[overthewater]

Has anyone else seen the social media adverts that states Lothian country is rising it's hourly rate from £14.85 to £15.55h from April 2024

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Has anyone else seen the social media adverts that states Lothian country is rising it's hourly rate from £14.85 to £15.55h from April 2024

At the back of buses too. I think every man and his dog has seen them.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Has anyone else seen the social media adverts that states Lothian country is rising it's hourly rate from £14.85 to £15.55h from April 2024

Yes this was mentioned last month - I believe this is after a successful deal following efforts from the union. (https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-...-wages-for-bus-workers-on-scottish-east-coast - link opens Unite the union news article regarding increases). It was quite possible if a good deal wasn't purposed Lothian Country and East Coast Buses drivers will have gone on strike.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Didn’t attend the open day however it appears there was only 4 or 5 heritage vehicles in attendance? Especially with no running day thats a poor turnout and it leaves the question, whats the point of having a heritage fleet if its not even going to show face one day a year? And is it worth selling on likewise with 112 & 701

 

[overthewater]

There was a running day today, it had 3 buses. Im not sure if it was open to the public.

 

[ScotRail158725]

There was a running day today, it had 3 buses. Im not sure if it was open to the public.

It was nothing to do with Lothian though. In 2016-2019 it was using Lothians own vehicles none of which were used this year

 

[Lothian285]

Didn’t attend the open day however it appears there was only 4 or 5 heritage vehicles in attendance? Especially with no running day thats a poor turnout and it leaves the question, whats the point of having a heritage fleet if its not even going to show face one day a year? And is it worth selling on likewise with 112 & 701

There were 5 vintage buses at the open day this year, the vehicles in bold are the ones that are owned by Lothian:

RM242 (VLT 242)
314 (JWS 594)
572 (W572 RSG)
777 (OFS 777)
801 (ESF 801C)

There was a running day today, it had 3 buses. Im not sure if it was open to the public.

There was an unofficial running day which was open to the public, I saw 5 buses on it:

Edinburgh Corporation Transport 300 (WFS 300K)
Lothian Region Transport 321 (E321 MSG)
WJC Buses (VMP 10G)
W Alexander & Sons Fife FPD225 (RMS 714)
A1 (PSJ 825R)

 

[ScotRail158725]

There were 5 vintage buses at the open day this year, the vehicles in bold are the ones that are owned by Lothian:

RM242 (VLT 242)
314 (JWS 594)
572 (W572 RSG)
777 (OFS 777)
801 (ESF 801C)

As i say Lothian have about 15 others, whats the point in having them if they’re not going to display them the one day a year that they have the opportunity to

 

[overthewater]

Didn't Lothian sell off some of its vintage buses?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Didn't Lothian sell off some of its vintage buses?

Only 112 and 701

 

[Vectron383]

I was there briefly this morning and it wasn’t really a great showing vehicle wise if I’m honest. Every in-service bus on display today was a Gemini 3, and the vehicles from ECB and LC were ones which had the same interiors are regular Lothian. I know there are operational requirements etc but surely they could have found an E400 of some description, or an EvoRa, or one of the airline vehicles for a bit of variety? There wasn’t any visitor vehicle either (I’m choosing not to count 997 as it has a full Lothian spec interior, 50 more are on the way and it’s ran in the city for several months). That being said it was interesting to see the ex-Green Arrow coach, and as always the staff and general atmosphere was excellent. My one wish would be more vehicle variety.

 

[Tom1791]

Anyone know if E322MSG and P285PSX are still in preservation? Don't think I've seen any photos of them since 2019?

 

[90019]

Anyone know if E322MSG and P285PSX are still in preservation? Don't think I've seen any photos of them since 2019?

Still preserved.

Since the change of management, they have little interest in using any of them but also won't sell them.
I know a couple of people who have made enquiries and been told they aren't for sale.

 

[scosutsut]

I went to the open day with my bus daft laddie and he had a whale of a time. Lothian don't have to do put on any of it, and we're really grateful that it's back.

Based on the queues outside (3/4s of the way round East London Street for us) and the hussle and bustle inside I would say it was a great success.

Staff we spoke to were all really engaging and positive, a really good show all round.

Yes the veg in me would have liked to see more variety, but I'd gamble that 90+ percent of the audience there didn't care so I think it was a great reboot of an event which hopefully can continue to grow from here.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Still preserved.

Since the change of management, they have little interest in using any of them but also won't sell them.
I know a couple of people who have made enquiries and been told they aren't for sale.

And if they wont sell them then why aren’t they at an open day? No point having them to sit wherever they are gathering dust

 

[stevenedin]

It’s a shame that they won’t run the vintage running days anymore. Maybe they were looking to see how many people were interested for the event yesterday and may try something at a later date. I don’t know how it works with the LEZ though if they run as service buses.

 

[alphabravo43]

It’s a shame that they won’t run the vintage running days anymore. Maybe they were looking to see how many people were interested for the event yesterday and may try something at a later date. I don’t know how it works with the LEZ though if they run as service buses.

That may be the challenge, I don't know the ins and outs of the Edinburgh LEZ but there is an exemption for historical vehicles normally in them, the question would be is either E322MSG and P285PSX exempt by this to allow them in? Older ones like RM242 (VLT242), 314 (JWS594), 777 (OFS777) and 801 (ESF801C) will likely be which were at the open day. But 572 (W572RSG) will likely be subject to the LEZ and they may have deemed in only justifiable to pay the LEZ fine for one vehicle for the event?

 

[GusB]

That may be the challenge, I don't know the ins and outs of the Edinburgh LEZ but there is an exemption for historical vehicles normally in them, the question would be is either E322MSG and P285PSX exempt by this to allow them in? Older ones like RM242 (VLT242), 314 (JWS594), 777 (OFS777) and 801 (ESF801C) will likely be which were at the open day. But 572 (W572RSG) will likely be subject to the LEZ and they may have deemed in only justifiable to pay the LEZ fine for one vehicle for the event?

The details for historic vehicles are here:

Low Emission Zones (LEZ) exemptions

About vehicles that are exempt from LEZ fines

www.edinburgh.gov.uk

Historic vehicles​

An exemption will be given to vehicles that meet the definition of “a vehicle of historical interest”:

• a vehicle considered to be of historical interest to the United Kingdom; and
• was manufactured, or registered, for the first time at least 30 years previously, and
• is of a type no longer in production, and
• has been historically preserved or maintained in its original state and has not undergone substantial changes in the technical characteristics of its main components.

Of the buses mentioned above, the newest two definitely won't meet these criteria, yet. It's not long before 285's 30th (and suddenly I'm feeling quite old!)

 

[ScotRail158725]

465 unwrapped and now repainted. Over half the 66 plates done now?