GWR stock shortage: potential solutions

[Clarence Yard]

Came from Brian Scott, apparently.

Say no more! That will be the result of the apportionments then - WR IC had a poor grasp of what really should be costed to which route - it all tended to get lumped into sub sector 1.07 and jam spread out by location and cost centre to one route. Not a great way to monitor your business.

 

[Master29]

All the North Cotswold trains were 5 car this morning, so I'm very unsure what your definition of all is. The Oxford terminations were 9 car, but if you don't think that is needed you've obviously never travelled to Oxford on a weekday morning. 5 cars would be leaving people on the platform.

This was on Saturday.

 

[RailWonderer]

I agree in a way there is too much winging, but there are also circumstances I’ve seen where a 5 car short form leaves people behind on the platform. When it causes a decrease in passenger capacity that is needed that is something to complain about.

I've seen a 9 car at Bath leave people behind during weekend enginnering works when the service came from Bristol, Exeter and Plymouth. Even Cardiff and Swansea to London are seeing overcrowding from long sets from football matches and weekend break leisure travellers. GWR will never satisfy everyone, they may as well spin a wheel and allocate 9 cars to a random bunch of routes (excluding the Bedwyns and most Oxford terminators which are the only sensible uses of 5 car sets).

 

[Master29]

The Cotswold traffic has mushroomed since those days but traffic from the far west towards London? It hasn’t increased nearly as much.

But that doesn't mean there wasn't already a fairly large amount of traffic on the W of E over a good many years prior to this.

 

[irish_rail]

Genuine question. Are LNER suffering the same problems we have on the Western in terms of severe overcrowding and constant short forms?

 

[Energy]

Genuine question. Are LNER suffering the same problems we have on the Western in terms of severe overcrowding and constant short forms?

Not particularly relevant. LNER has lower unit utilisation, and they aren't going to loose Azumas to GWR.

 

[irish_rail]

Not particularly relevant. LNER has lower unit utilisation, and they aren't going to loose Azumas to GWR.

Its relevant as the fact LNER isn't suffering kind of proves that we do have a problem on GWR and government should be looking at throwing some money at it, perhaps at the expense of other schemes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Genuine question. Are LNER suffering the same problems we have on the Western in terms of severe overcrowding and constant short forms?

LNER choose not to use all the trains that are contracted to be delivered to then each day by Hitachi in part because the expanded timetable hasn’t happened yet.

 

[TheBigD]

Genuine question. Are LNER suffering the same problems we have on the Western in terms of severe overcrowding and constant short forms?

In terms of overcrowding generally no, except for a few services on the Leeds run (which are booked for 5 cars) on Sundays, when the service is only hourly instead of half hourly. The usual 5 car services on the Lincoln's and a handful of Leeds services cope fine.

As others have posted, LNER do not diagram the full 54 out of 65 units. I think 48 are diagrammed with the rest as "operational spare", but happy to be corrected.

 

[JamesRowden]

Run 5-cars to the South West with:

• 1tph Paddington - Penzance (non-stop to Exeter)
• 1tph Paddington - Plymouth (current fast stopping pattern)
• 1tph Paddington - Exeter (current semi-fast stopping pattern)

and 5-Car trains might be suitable. Just need to sign up a load more drivers

 

[Clarence Yard]

Its relevant as the fact LNER isn't suffering kind of proves that we do have a problem on GWR and government should be looking at throwing some money at it, perhaps at the expense of other schemes.

The difference is that the GWR fleet have a harder duty cycle, are the oldest and have diesel engines operating at the higher end of their capability range. The depots that Hitachi use seem to be capacity constrained and no amount of extra stock is going to help here, hence why Ponsandane is so important to any 5 to 9 augmentation.

To sum up, the kit isn’t up to the job and the best thing that could happen is we get electrification to both Swansea and the Meads, de-rate the 800 units back to their originally intended setting (which will take a lot of pressure off the depots) and do what FG originally wanted to do in DA3, lengthen up to 14 sets of 802 5 cars up to 9 cars. You can then drop the availability at the same time to add in a bit more fleet resilience.

You certainly don’t want to be operating 5 car sets on the Paddington-Exeter corridor (a couple of services excepted) if you can possibly avoid it. At a minimum, you need to plan on the equivalent of two long trains per hour on this stretch.

 

[irish_rail]

The difference is that the GWR fleet have a harder duty cycle, are the oldest and have diesel engines operating at the higher end of their capability range. The depots that Hitachi use seem to be capacity constrained and no amount of extra stock is going to help here, hence why Ponsandane is so important to any 5 to 9 augmentation.

To sum up, the kit isn’t up to the job and the best thing that could happen is we get electrification to both Swansea and the Meads, de-rate the 800 units back to their originally intended setting (which will take a lot of pressure off the depots) and do what FG originally wanted to do in DA3, lengthen up to 14 sets of 802 5 cars up to 9 cars. You can then drop the availability at the same time to add in a bit more fleet resilience.

You certainly don’t want to be operating 5 car sets on the Paddington-Exeter corridor (a couple of services excepted) if you can possibly avoid it. At a minimum, you need to plan on the equivalent of two long trains per hour on this stretch.

I would agree with all this. Though in my heart of hearts don't see much of it happening

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2023 ==

Run 5-cars to the South West with:

• 1tph Paddington - Penzance (non-stop to Exeter)
• 1tph Paddington - Plymouth (current fast stopping pattern)
• 1tph Paddington - Exeter (current semi-fast stopping pattern)

and 5-Car trains might be suitable. Just need to sign up a load more drivers

Oh God please no. WofE is last place you would dump all 5 car sets!

 

[Snow1964]

The difference is that the GWR fleet have a harder duty cycle, are the oldest and have diesel engines operating at the higher end of their capability range. The depots that Hitachi use seem to be capacity constrained and no amount of extra stock is going to help here, hence why Ponsandane is so important to any 5 to 9 augmentation.

To sum up, the kit isn’t up to the job and the best thing that could happen is we get electrification to both Swansea and the Meads, de-rate the 800 units back to their originally intended setting (which will take a lot of pressure off the depots) and do what FG originally wanted to do in DA3, lengthen up to 14 sets of 802 5 cars up to 9 cars. You can then drop the availability at the same time to add in a bit more fleet resilience.

Totally agree, I vaguely remember a Modern Railways article just after Grayling cut back the electrification, saying the diesel engine up-rate was only allowed by Hitachi if all the extra maintenance cost and risk was covered by Franchise and DfT.

Clearly isn't enough spare engine-generator units or depot capacity to swap and then overhaul the faster wearing high rated engines, and of course as planned only the west of England trains would have used the engines, those to Bristol, Swansea and Oxford wouldn't normally have turned them on, so their hours would be much less.

 

[RobShipway]

The difference is that the GWR fleet have a harder duty cycle, are the oldest and have diesel engines operating at the higher end of their capability range. The depots that Hitachi use seem to be capacity constrained and no amount of extra stock is going to help here, hence why Ponsandane is so important to any 5 to 9 augmentation.

To sum up, the kit isn’t up to the job and the best thing that could happen is we get electrification to both Swansea and the Meads, de-rate the 800 units back to their originally intended setting (which will take a lot of pressure off the depots) and do what FG originally wanted to do in DA3, lengthen up to 14 sets of 802 5 cars up to 9 cars. You can then drop the availability at the same time to add in a bit more fleet resilience.

You certainly don’t want to be operating 5 car sets on the Paddington-Exeter corridor (a couple of services excepted) if you can possibly avoid it. At a minimum, you need to plan on the equivalent of two long trains per hour on this stretch.

So would the 5 cars class 80x just be used on London Paddington - Cotswold/Cheltenham routes as well as replacing the HST castle sets?

The reason I ask the above, is that there is times I suspect that you would want 9 car trains, however not all stations can take the 9 car class 80x trains, which is whey I believe that GWR have just been using the 5 car sets.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, the 5 cars would be mainly operating as 10 cars, with 5 cars on the Cardiff to Penzance corridor and the odd, occasional lighter working on the North and South Cots. The only London departing service that requires a 5 would be a Bedwyn but 10 cars are too long for the North Cots (track circuit as well as platform issues).

 

[RobShipway]

No, the 5 cars would be mainly operating as 10 cars, with 5 cars on the Cardiff to Penzance corridor and the odd, occasional lighter working on the North and South Cots. The only London departing service that requires a 5 would be a Bedwyn but 10 cars are too long for the North Cots (track circuit as well as platform issues).

Could the remaining 8 class 802 units be lengthened to 7 cars for North Cots, which would leave the 5 car class 800 for services to Bedwyn plus Cardiff to Penzance? Or maybe lengthen some class 800 5 cars to 7 cars, then leave the remaining 8 class 802 as 5 car trains to do the Cardiff to Penzance services?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, please don’t introduce a third set length onto GWR! It then becomes more of an operational and maintenance headache because of the interworking and the shed layouts. You need to protect your step ups and step downs as well.

Also a 7 car is not the solution for the North Cots. You want, longer term, to aim for an all 9 operation there and on the South Cots so that nothing goes out of Pad as a single 5 in the core hours. Eventually, as the Cardiff-Penzance goes to a new unit type, you can go all 9 or 10 as far as you can and any 5 cars could be on the Bedwyns. The South West destination trains would be all 9.

7 coach extended 800 sets for XC services could be a possibility, maintained out of Laira, Neville Hill and Craigentinny, perhaps?

 

[RobShipway]

No, please don’t introduce a third set length onto GWR! It then becomes more of an operational and maintenance headache because of the interworking and the shed layouts. You need to protect your step ups and step downs as well.

Also a 7 car is not the solution for the North Cots. You want, longer term, to aim for an all 9 operation there and on the South Cots so that nothing goes out of Pad as a single 5 in the core hours. Eventually, as the Cardiff-Penzance goes to a new unit type, you can go all 9 or 10 as far as you can and any 5 cars could be on the Bedwyns. The South West destination trains would be all 9.

7 coach extended 800 sets for XC services could be a possibility, maintained out of Laira, Neville Hill and Craigentinny, perhaps?

Fair enough, just an idea. I was just thinking that because the Infrastructure on the North Cots is such that not all platforms can take 9 car, they could possibly take 7. If you are going to have 10 car on the North Cots, then where possible there needs to be platforms extended.

 

[Energy]

and any 5 cars could be on the Bedwyns.

Ideally you'd electrify Newbury to Bedwyn and run it with 387s rather than keep around a small number of 5 car units.

but 10 cars are too long for the North Cots (track circuit as well as platform issues).

Shame, otherwise 5 car off peak and coupled to 10 on peak services could work nicely.

I would agree with all this. Though in my heart of hearts don't see much of it happening

I could see the electrification happening, along with batteries units it would substantially decrease costs.

Its relevant as the fact LNER isn't suffering kind of proves that we do have a problem on GWR and government should be looking at throwing some money at it, perhaps at the expense of other schemes.

You don't need LNER as a point of comparison, it's obvious that GWRs unit availability is lower than contracted. Throwing money wouldn't solve it unless said money went towards electrification.

What would be more interesting is how LNER's engine maintanence compares as theirs aren't uprated.

then where possible there needs to be platforms extended.

Track circuit issues as well, otherwise you could use SDO.

 

[RobShipway]

Track circuit issues as well, otherwise you could use SDO.

Okay, thanks.

deally you'd electrify Newbury to Bedwyn and run it with 387s rather than keep around a small number of 5 car units.

Does GWR have enough 387's in it's fleet or would it be a case of them having to lease class 379 or 350/2 units as well? I suspect ideally, they would lease the class 379 units?

You don't need LNER as a point of comparison, it's obvious that GWRs unit availability is lower than contracted. Throwing money wouldn't solve it unless said money went towards electrification.

What would be more interesting is how LNER's engine maintanence compares as theirs aren't uprated.

Some of the class 80x units with LNER are electric only in the form of class 801. Other than the Edingburgh to Aberdeen services, is there anywhere else where the LNER class 80x units are on diesel uphills or round mountains in the same way that GWR units are going through Devon and Cornwall?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Okay, thanks.


Does GWR have enough 387's in it's fleet or would it be a case of them having to lease class 379 or 350/2 units as well? I suspect ideally, they would lease the class 379 units?


Some of the class 80x units with LNER are electric only in the form of class 801. Other than the Edingburgh to Aberdeen services, is there anywhere else where the LNER class 80x units are on diesel uphills or round mountains in the same way that GWR units are going through Devon and Cornwall?

Edinburgh to Inverness isn’t exactly flat either.

 

[RobShipway]

Edinburgh to Inverness isn’t exactly flat either.

True.

 

[Energy]

Does GWR have enough 387's in it's fleet or would it be a case of them having to lease class 379 or 350/2 units as well? I suspect ideally, they would lease the class 379 units?

It's a short distance, they'd only need a couple 387s. They released 3 to Great Northern a few months back.

 

[Dan G]

No, the 5 cars would be mainly operating as 10 cars, with 5 cars on the Cardiff to Penzance corridor and the odd, occasional lighter working on the North and South Cots. The only London departing service that requires a 5 would be a Bedwyn but 10 cars are too long for the North Cots (track circuit as well as platform issues).

Could 5-car IETs work Cardiff-Portsmouth?

 

[Snow1964]

Could 5-car IETs work Cardiff-Portsmouth?

This has come up before, currently not cleared Westbury-Portsmouth.

However how many physical points there are (platform edges or other obstructions) if any, that would need modification, as opposed to paperwork isn't clear.

The IETs aren't really configured as an ideal semi-fast train either, more an express configuration. Really need a regional bimode (and Cardiff-Penzance needs them too, rather than IETs). Not using surplus suburban commuter units Cardiff-Portsmouth as now.

For clarity I deem a regional train as 100-110mph on electric, 90-100mph on diesel, seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, with doors suitable for high churn intermediate stations.

 

[Annetts key]

For clarity I deem a regional train as 100-110mph on electric, 90-100mph on diesel, seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, with doors suitable for high churn intermediate stations.

The trouble is, far too often, the West country ends up with trains/stock that are far from ideal.

Yes, when the Intercity 125 HSTs were introduced, they were obviously brand new and exactly what was wanted for the high speed services.

However, since then, a lot of local and regional trains/stock has been formed from displaced old stock from elsewhere. In the late 1980s, we actually got some brand new 150 class sprinters and some 158s. This allowed all the old DMUs to be scrapped.

But as demand increased, there was not enough ‘new’ stock, so some services were engine (typically a 47) and coaches.

Since then, various other displaced DMUs have been used, none of them very young, let alone new.

Now five car IETs are being used to replace the Castle HST sets. The Castle HST sets are not ideal, but at least they do actually help, especially when there are a lot of passengers (as you get on the Cardiff Central to Penzance service and for the commuter trains around Bristol. The four MK3 coaches being better than a three car Turbo, but obviously with longer times for passengers to alight or board.

The five car IETs are at best, a step sideways, maybe even backwards step. Especially given their poor seats.

So yes, the West country does really need sufficient (with spare capacity for growing passenger numbers) new trains that are actually fit for purpose and not yet another stop gap bodge.

 

[Snow1964]

In the late 1980s, we actually got some brand new 150 class sprinters and some 158s. This allowed all the old DMUs to be scrapped.

Definitions of when replacement is due have clearly changed, those old DMUs were younger when withdrawn, than the current DMUs on GWR (which don't yet have a replacement on order)

The old DMUs were generally replaced at 25-31 years old. The 150s are already about 36 years old, the 158s about 33 years old, and leases have been extended until 2028

I agree, neither an IET, or a derivative of inner suburban / commuter DMU are ideal for long regional routes

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh God please no. WofE is last place you would dump all 5 car sets!

But not for any reason other than it’s your turf. Based in Cardiff I would argue we’re 100% just as in need of 9/10s. All we seem to get is 5s now and they leave masses of people behind.

 

[Dan G]

I think a nice fleet of 3-car 175s would be a great fit for Cardiff-Portsmouth

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think a nice fleet of 3-car 175s would be a great fit for Cardiff-Portsmouth

Why? With all the route clearance, traincrew and depot training and fitting the SDO to 175s it’ll be quicker to wait for the Welsh 158s.