20 extra carriages for Leeds area

[northwichcat]

http://www.wymetro.com/news/releases/110413NewTrains

Metro claim the new trains will be "Similar to the existing, popular Class 333 trains." I'm guessing they mean "Similar to the existing, Class 321 trains" and the trains will be Scotrail 322s, otherwise Heathrow Express will have a shock.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is the 322s that Northern are getting for the December timetable, but they are to run alongside the 333s

 

[sprinterguy]

How often are there not enough 333s available to operate the full West Yorks electric service, requiring a DMU to stand in? I didn’t think it was all that often, with the 333s being fairly reliable pieces of kit. In which case this is going to lead to quite low fleet utilisation from Northerns’ 321/322 fleet, as although they will be a boon when there aren’t enough 321/9s available to operate the Leeds to Doncaster shuttles, and avoid the need for DMU substitution, a lot of the time there will be little work for the five 322s [EDIT] even with an increased peak service frequency planned [/EDIT], as platform extensions would be needed for West Yorks electric services to be doubled up.

It’s good to see these extra coaches going to the Metro area so that a more reliable service can be provided on the electrified routes, but it’s a shame more intensive use can’t be made of these twenty additional carriages, which is quite a sizeable number in the current climate.

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s good to see these extra coaches going to the Metro area so that a more reliable service can be provided on the electrified routes, but it’s a shame more intensive use can’t be made of these twenty additional carriages, which is quite a sizeable number in the current climate.

Did you read the whole Metro article? Isn't that what they mean by "This in turn will allow some carriages to be released to provide more seats on the Caldervale Line between Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Manchester."

DfT version is here by the way:

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=419148&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true

 

[sprinterguy]

Did you read the whole Metro article? Isn't that what they mean by "This in turn will allow some carriages to be released to provide more seats on the Caldervale Line between Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Manchester."

DfT version is here by the way:

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=419148&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true

Oh yes, there is to be an increased number of peak time services. I missed that bit. I’m still not sure how this is likely to release DMUs for Caldervale services though. As I understand it, the only time DMUs are used on the West Yorks and Leeds-Doncaster services is when they are deputising for unavailable electric units, which is considerably less than an everyday occurrence and the electric services are pretty much self contained, so there aren’t really any DMUs freed up from other diagrams. However I have to say I’m not hugely familiar with the day to day operating requirements of the service.

 

[philjo]

I have seen a DMU working on the Ilkley line during the evening peak the last couple of times I was up there (though that was last year) - last time it was a pair of 158s I think, & a 2-car on an off-peak service.

I get the impression from here that there will be an addtional peak-time service to Skipton, Ilkley with some Leeds-Bradford Forster Square services being lengthened presumably as those platforms already take EC services so no lengthening work would be required.

 

[Anvil1984]

Oh yes, there is to be an increased number of peak time services. I missed that bit. I’m still not sure how this is likely to release DMUs for Caldervale services though. As I understand it, the only time DMUs are used on the West Yorks and Leeds-Doncaster services is when they are deputising for unavailable electric units, which is considerably less than an everyday occurrence and the electric services are pretty much self contained, so there aren’t really any DMUs freed up from other diagrams. However I have to say I’m not hugely familiar with the day to day operating requirements of the service.

There are 2 diesel diagrams on the triangle at various times but cant remember what they are

 

[GNERman]

I believe that 15 of the 16 333's are in use per day, 14 outside of peak...

Excellent news for us on the Airedale Line, would prefer a 322 over a 333 anyday...

 

[tbtc]

I’m still not sure how this is likely to release DMUs for Caldervale services though. As I understand it, the only time DMUs are used on the West Yorks and Leeds-Doncaster services is when they are deputising for unavailable electric units

This is my confusion too.

The EMUs run self contained routes, and are all four coaches; any DMUs running on EMU routes are fairly rare (from my experiences).

Good that there are more peak services, of course. There's potential for slightly more EMU use (e.g. cut the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster/Morcambe service at Skipton and run more EMUs from Leeds to Skipton, cut the Sheffield - Doncaster - Adwick service at Doncaster and run more EMUs from Doncaster to Adwick, but these are both very marginal and would lose through links). Really, we need electrification (e.g. Harrogate branch) to really benefit from more EMUs.

However, I must take issue with this quote:

They form part of the 650 additional carriages the Government will introduce onto the UK’s rail network by 2014

(http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=419148&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true)

Are you claiming that these cascaded EMUs from ScotRail are "brand new"? Because, unless I'm missing something, these aren't "additional carriages" on "the UK's rail network", just ones moved from central belt Scotland to Leeds.

Overall, good news, of course, I'm just confused by how the additional EMUs can be used on daily offpeak services or where these DMUs that will be cascaded to the Caldervale line will come from.

PS: Does this mean South Yorkshire can stop paying part of the leasing costs for the fourth coaches of the 333s (which are hardly ever in South Yorkshire)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you claiming that these cascaded EMUs from ScotRail are "brand new"? Because, unless I'm missing something, these aren't "additional carriages" on "the UK's rail network", just ones moved from central belt Scotland to Leeds.

They are additional in that the alternative is to put them in store. Other recent announcements have seen LM being allocated 'additional' units, that they already had before - ie the 7 x 321s.

This seems to me a perfectly legitimate use of additional, as in 'additional to the previous plan'. In the case of these Leeds trains, they are additional to the current fleet in that area.

Similarly with use of the word 'new' as an equivalent to 'extra' or 'additional' - this isn't the first announcement in that style, and probably won't be the last; after all, people often refer to their 'new car', even if it's secondhand...

 

[sprinterguy]

There are 2 diesel diagrams on the triangle at various times but cant remember what they are

I believe that 15 of the 16 333's are in use per day, 14 outside of peak...

Thanks for the info folks, I was sure that someone would come along after not too long with better understanding of the diagrams for these services

 

[NXEA!]

There are 2 diesel diagrams on the triangle at various times but cant remember what they are

Interesting. Also if the 333's are stretched with up to 15 a day in traffic, these 5 322's could come in handy. It would be good if 2 of the 5 sets worked the diesel diagrams, and one set worked a 333 diagram, with the fourth being used on a new peak service as is mentioned, as this means if one of the 321's fail on the Leeds-Doncaster services, the spare 321 or spare 322 can go and deputise for it rather than DMU's having to be taken from somewhere else to operate the service. Sounds to me like this could be a big help.

 

[GNERman]

diesel diagrams are these (weekdays):-

Class 158(2)

0555 Leeds - Skipton

0701 Skipton - Bradford Forster Square

0746 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

0824 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

0904 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

Class 144(3)

0932 Leeds - Ilkley

1010 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 144(3)

1432 Leeds - Ilkley

1510 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 321

1715 Leeds - Ilkley

1751 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

1827 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

1910 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square

1941 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

2021 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 158(2)

2148 Skipton - Leeds

Class 158(2) + Class 144(2)

2256 Leeds - Skipton

 

[YorkshireBear]

diesel diagrams are these (weekdays):-

Class 158(2)

0555 Leeds - Skipton

0701 Skipton - Bradford Forster Square

0746 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

0824 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

0904 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

Class 144(3)

0932 Leeds - Ilkley

1010 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 144(3)

1432 Leeds - Ilkley

1510 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 321

1715 Leeds - Ilkley

1751 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

1827 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

1910 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square

1941 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

2021 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 158(2)

2148 Skipton - Leeds

Class 158(2) + Class 144(2)

2256 Leeds - Skipton

Very useful thanks for that!

Well i think 5 will come in very handy then. means the situation what happened the other week wont, ie i was at fitzwilliam and one of the leeds doncaster diagrams was cancelled one was a 2 car 144 and one was a 321.

 

[northwichcat]

cut the Sheffield - Doncaster - Adwick service at Doncaster and run more EMUs from Doncaster to Adwick

I'm not sure if it's still the case but there used to be one or two Doncaster-Adwick peak time extras that doesn't start from/go to Sheffield which were 142/144 operated. They could be switched to 32xs but then 4 carriages may be overkill.

 

[Oswyntail]

More often than not, in recent weeks, when I have seen the "17:15" duty, it has been a three-car 158 rather than a 321. Very unsophisticated statistics, but an indicator

 

[87015]

I'm not sure if it's still the case but there used to be one or two Doncaster-Adwick peak time extras that doesn't start from/go to Sheffield which were 142/144 operated. They could be switched to 32xs but then 4 carriages may be overkill.

Isn't the whole point of the Sheffield (and beyond) -Adwicks going beyond Doncaster that they haven't got space to turn them around at Doncaster though, rather than for any great passenger demand. Certainly can't see any sign of PM peak extras just shuttling between the two.

Also, £10m to support five units for eighteen months (if Dec 11 is correct) or two years (DfT say from April 11) seem a little high even by UK rail standards. If the trains are busy and requiring that much subsidy then there must be questions over the operational finances.

 

[Anvil1984]

diesel diagrams are these (weekdays):-

Class 158(2)

0555 Leeds - Skipton

0701 Skipton - Bradford Forster Square

0746 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

0824 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

0904 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

Class 158(2)

2148 Skipton - Leeds

Class 158(2) + Class 144(2)

2256 Leeds - Skipton

A couple of things.

a) From May timetable the 0555 service will go through to Carlisle so I don't know how that will affect the diagrams come December time when the 322s are here.

b) Does the unit for the 2148 from Skipton go up ECS, seems a bit of a weird move?

c) There was talk a while back of improving the triangle service and there was uproar (I think it was transferred 323s that were suggested) in the local papers about it being old stock....

d) Also rumour true or untrue that the 322s will be reclassed as 321s to cut down on training and will enable the Skipton men who don't currently sign them to train up on the 321s,

 

[tbtc]

diesel diagrams are these (weekdays):-

Class 158(2)

0555 Leeds - Skipton

0701 Skipton - Bradford Forster Square

0746 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

0824 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

0904 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

Class 144(3)

0932 Leeds - Ilkley

1010 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 144(3)

1432 Leeds - Ilkley

1510 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 321

1715 Leeds - Ilkley

1751 Ilkley - Bradford Forster Square

1827 Bradford Forster Square - Leeds

1910 Leeds - Bradford Forster Square

1941 Bradford Forster Square - Ilkley

2021 Ilkley - Leeds

Class 158(2)

2148 Skipton - Leeds

Class 158(2) + Class 144(2)

2256 Leeds - Skipton

Very interesting, cheers. So there's effectively always one DMU deputising for an EMU during the day (with the exception of 10.30 - 14.30)? Does anyone think they didn't order enough 333s? Seems strange that the diagrams need sixteen out of sixteen to be in use each day (though, in effect, one is rested whilst that duty is DMU run)? Crazy.

 

[GNERman]

A couple of things.

a) From May timetable the 0555 service will go through to Carlisle so I don't know how that will affect the diagrams come December time when the 322s are here.

b) Does the unit for the 2148 from Skipton go up ECS, seems a bit of a weird move?

c) There was talk a while back of improving the triangle service and there was uproar (I think it was transferred 323s that were suggested) in the local papers about it being old stock....

d) Also rumour true or untrue that the 322s will be reclassed as 321s to cut down on training and will enable the Skipton men who don't currently sign them to train up on the 321s,

Are you saying that my information from a Northern member of staff is wrong?

These are diagrams UNTIL timetable change, and I know about the new Leeds-Carlisle diagram.

The 2148 is definitely a Class 158, because it is in Platform 3 when the KGX-SKI arrives, normally being cleaned...

323's were suggested but that was part of a suggested 333 transfer to the Manchester area...

I've heard that the 322's will become 321904+...

 

[tbtc]

They are additional in that the alternative is to put them in store. Other recent announcements have seen LM being allocated 'additional' units, that they already had before - ie the 7 x 321s.

This seems to me a perfectly legitimate use of additional, as in 'additional to the previous plan'. In the case of these Leeds trains, they are additional to the current fleet in that area.

Similarly with use of the word 'new' as an equivalent to 'extra' or 'additional' - this isn't the first announcement in that style, and probably won't be the last; after all, people often refer to their 'new car', even if it's secondhand...

I accept that I've referred to my "new" book before, when in fact I bought it in a second hand shop.

I could even accept these trains being described as "new trains for Yorkshire" (in that they are new to the area, though clearly twenty years old)

However, describing them as part of the "650 additional carriages the Government will introduce onto the UK’s rail network by 2014" suggests that the UK rail network will get 650 additional carriages. Simply shuffling trains around the UK and pretending that they are "new" is lying, in my book.

 

[Anvil1984]

As with anything its funding and costs that ruin things, personally I thought it was daft enough they didnt order 4 or 5 more 333s and release the 321s for another TOC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you saying that my information from a Northern member of staff is wrong?

These are diagrams UNTIL timetable change, and I know about the new Leeds-Carlisle diagram.

The 2148 is definitely a Class 158, because it is in Platform 3 when the KGX-SKI arrives, normally being cleaned...

323's were suggested but that was part of a suggested 333 transfer to the Manchester area...

I've heard that the 322's will become 321904+...

No I was asking questions, quite simple no need to get offended, was confused when you had 321s as diesel diagrams though

 

[tbtc]

As with anything its funding and costs that ruin things, personally I thought it was daft enough they didnt order 4 or 5 more 333s and release the 321s for another TOC

You're not the only one thinking like that

 

[GNERman]

No I was asking questions, quite simple no need to get offended, was confused when you had 321s as diesel diagrams though

wasn't offended, more of a rhetorical question to myself...

there are numerous pointless diagrams, possibly because 15 of the 16 333's are needed per day, 14 off peak, so the fleet is stretched...

As with anything its funding and costs that ruin things, personally I thought it was daft enough they didnt order 4 or 5 more 333s and release the 321s for another TOC

That's the problem with being Oop North, no funding whatsoever. I've read that when the Airedale area was being electrified, a bid was put in for a fleet of new 321's for these services, but BR denied this and we got nice, old, knackered 308's instead :-x

 

[NXEA!]

[/QUOTE]I've heard that the 322's will become 321904+...[/QUOTE]
See, I've heard that the 322's were to become 321/5's... This is from TR UK by the way...

 

[GNERman]

See, I've heard that the 322's were to become 321/5's... This is from TR UK by the way...

All have been wrong, I remember when everyone was expecting Hull Trains Class 223's...

 

[lm321412]

Wheres the need to reclassify anything?

They are identical to the 321s, they were only numbered 322 because BR wanted them to be exclusive trains for Stansted Express....

 

[Anvil1984]

Wheres the need to reclassify anything?

They are identical to the 321s, they were only numbered 322 because BR wanted them to be exclusive trains for Stansted Express....

Paperwork and red tape reasons more than anything. Even though they are the same they might (not sure) need a small brief or training conversion for them if they remain 322s I could be wrong though

 

[northwichcat]

Certainly can't see any sign of PM peak extras just shuttling between the two.

There's am extras and I think the pm extras are extended to Scunthorphe or somewhere like that.

 

[yorksrob]

That's the problem with being Oop North, no funding whatsoever. I've read that when the Airedale area was being electrified, a bid was put in for a fleet of new 321's for these services, but BR denied this and we got nice, old, knackered 308's instead :-x

The 308's were a lot nicer than 321's IMO and did sterling service for many years.

If someone tries to take away the 333's that we (and S Yorks) paid for, we should kick up a stink, but otherwise any additional stock for more services should be welcomed with open arms.

Three cheers to Metro.