Lumo borrowing a Hull trains unit for a service (25/08/23)

[JonathanH]

That’s a shame. I was looking forward to seeing that service occur.

As noted above, the Hull Trains hire appears to still be happening, just on a different service.

 

[T74]

Looks like a late start from kgx as 802301 is currently on 0753 bev to khx due at 1106 so a late start for 1045 edb .

 

[DanNCL]

No they don't, only a small handful of drivers are 802 competent.
1 unit is out for repair more than normal, due to a fatality on Sat.. I would hardly say that makes the fleet unreliable.

Considering 802s and 803s are almost identical, and 802s were used for the vast majority of the crew training in 2021, that is utter madness. But then I shouldn't be surprised, after all we're talking about First group here.
Where did I say the fleet was unreliable? I said they didn't have 100% availability, which is true as no fleet has 100% availability, but I didn't suggest they were unreliable.

 

[skyhigh]

Considering 802s and 803s are almost identical, and 802s were used for the vast majority of the crew training in 2021, that is utter madness. But then I shouldn't be surprised, after all we're talking about First group here.

But they're not identical, so there will be costs incurred to keep crews competent on units that they don't have in their fleet. When they have a sister TOC with identical units that they can effectively borrow for free, why bother?

It's like saying the crews who work 195s should be able just to work 196s as they're "almost identical".

 

[DanNCL]

But they're not identical, so there will be costs incurred to keep crews competent on units that they don't have in their fleet. When they have a sister TOC with identical units that they can effectively borrow for free, why bother?

It's like saying the crews who work 195s should be able just to work 196s as they're "almost identical".

An 803 is an 802 without the diesel engines. The cab is identical. If airline pilots can fly both a 757 and a 767 which have a lot less in common, train drivers should be able to drive both 802s and 803s.

Your example of the 19xs isn't comparable as they have completely different cabs.

 

[800001]

That’s a shame. I was looking forward to seeing that service occur. Newark always seems to have a fatality there. Has anyone else noticed that?

There was no fatality, how ever 2 critically injured people at the scene.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2023 ==


Regards 802/803, They may have slightly different systems.

For example an LNER unit the AWS, you have 0.7 seconds longer to cancel than you do on a HT 802. (Am sure the mats the difference, so maybe some thing similar and other difference between 802 and 803.

 

[Clarence Yard]

On todays railway, if it is a different class and it’s not on your current competencies, it’s a retraining job - it has nothing to do with any Owning Group. The cabs could be totally identical but that doesn’t matter when it comes to having to do either the training or re-training.

 

[800001]

Looks like a late start from kgx as 802301 is currently on 0753 bev to khx due at 1106 so a late start for 1045 edb .

1S93 left Kings Cross 3 late at 10:45, trust has it down as 802301.

5S93 came off Bounds Green, arriving Kings Cross at 10:25.

 

[JonathanH]

803004 appears to be on the way to London (Ferme Park) from Heaton to run tomorrow's services.

Realtime Trains | 5G95 1623 Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Ferme Park Recp. | 25/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 5G95 1623 departure from Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Ferme Park Recp. on 25/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The other London end unit should be 803002, with 803003 and presumably 803005 off servicing at the Edinburgh end.

 

[TheBigD]

Was there overcrowding on the services covered by the Hull Trains unit today? Or did it pass off without any issues?

 

[pompeyfan]

On todays railway, if it is a different class and it’s not on your current competencies, it’s a retraining job - it has nothing to do with any Owning Group. The cabs could be totally identical but that doesn’t matter when it comes to having to do either the training or re-training.

It’s odd because GWR 158 competent drivers are permitted to drive SWR 159 units (although they are practically identical now, although SWR units have a smaller AWS button). I know a few times GWR have worked a unit from Exeter St David’s to Central for SWR as well as the regular fuel workings there.

 

[800001]

Either way, it’s better than cancelling and forcing customers on to other operators.

Was there overcrowding on the services covered by the Hull Trains unit today? Or did it pass off without any issues?

 

[Starmill]

It’s odd because GWR 158 competent drivers are permitted to drive SWR 159 units (although they are practically identical now, although SWR units have a smaller AWS button). I know a few times GWR have worked a unit from Exeter St David’s to Central for SWR as well as the regular fuel workings there.

That's specifically assessed though as being covered by GWR's traction competency.

803s have some technical differences to 802s to do with their auxiliary power system, and of course 802s are electro-diesel which 803s aren't. There are probably other things that are different like cameras. None of that would be an issue with a 159.

 

[pompeyfan]

That's specifically assessed though as being covered by GWR's traction competency.

803s have some technical differences to 802s to do with their auxiliary power system, and of course 802s are electro-diesel which 803s aren't. There are probably other things that are different like cameras. None of that would be an issue with a 159.

Ah thank you for clarifying.

 

[ainsworth74]

Disappointing lack of photos of this unit away from it's usual stomping ground! I was looking forward to some links to pictures of a HT unit at Edinburgh or going over the Royal Border Bridge!

 

[800001]

One photo attached from 8xx group on Facebook, The unit seen passing Drem.

Disappointing lack of photos of this unit away from its usual stomping ground! I was looking forward to some links to pictures of a HT unit at Edinburgh or going over the Royal Border Bridge!

 

[The Middle]

The Lumo MD posted a photo of it on Twitter in Edinburgh. Looks like he also worked the train

 

[ainsworth74]

Very good! Thank you both

 

[Tony2]

On todays railway, if it is a different class and it’s not on your current competencies, it’s a retraining job - it has nothing to do with any Owning Group. The cabs could be totally identical but that doesn’t matter when it comes to having to do either the training or re-training.

Lumo drivers were all trained on 802/3s as well as 803s. Prior to the 803s being available all of the Hull Trains 802/3s worked many driver training services between London and Edinburgh.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, but if it isn’t on their current competencies and isn’t covered via the traction policy, that’s it. In that situation once they had signed 802 units, they would have had to have worked them again within a set period of time to retain competency.

 

[jagardner1984]

It does beg the question why we continue to create multiple fleets of a handful of units, rather than standardise controls on a larger fleet, albeit with some under floor differences - for example training Lumo drivers on a diesel compatible cab - albeit the units won’t have and diesel equipment onboard. I’m not really sure why all of the AT300 are not part of the same class.

 

[RobShipway]

Yes, but if it isn’t on their current competencies and isn’t covered via the traction policy, that’s it. In that situation once they had signed 802 units, they would have had to have worked them again within a set period of time to retain competency.

Could it not be the case that a Hull Trains Driver was driving the class 802 on behalf of Lumo, with route knowledge of travelling KHX to Edingburgh or with a Lumo driver alongside a Hull Trains driver?

As you say if a Lumo driver was driving the class 802, then they would have to have done a competency test every 6 - 12 months to keep up to date with the 802?

 

[357]

As you say if a Lumo driver was driving the class 802, then they would have to have done a competency test every 6 - 12 months to keep up to date with the 802?

I used to sign two types of Electrostar. One with a gangway and one without. The second fleet just needed me to drive one and be assessed once every three years.

 

[RobShipway]

I used to sign two types of Electrostar. One with a gangway and one without. The second fleet just needed me to drive one and be assessed once every three years.

So since Lumo started in October 2021, then the Lumo drivers on that basis depending on when they got their competency rating would still be compliant to be driving the Hull Trains class 802 units that they where trained on until 2024?

 

[357]

So since Lumo started in October 2021, then the Lumo drivers on that basis depending on when they got their competency rating would still be compliant to be driving the Hull Trains class 802 units that they where trained on until 2024?

It depends on the companies standards and policies - every company makes their own rules in this area and there isn't one set rule for the entire industry.

 

[800001]

So since Lumo started in October 2021, then the Lumo drivers on that basis depending on when they got their competency rating would still be compliant to be driving the Hull Trains class 802 units that they where trained on until 2024?

And that would only be the original drivers, and newbies since introduction would only of driven 803s?

 

[RollingStock19]

So since Lumo started in October 2021, then the Lumo drivers on that basis depending on when they got their competency rating would still be compliant to be driving the Hull Trains class 802 units that they where trained on until 2024?

But they were never competent on the 802 in the first place, the first batch of drivers started training on the 802 but qualified on 803.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2023 ==

And that would only be the original drivers, and newbies since introduction would only of driven 803s?

Not even, the original drivers all qualified 803

 

[BZ1044]

Lumo leasing the Hull Trains unit again tomorrow for the 12:18 service KGX-EDB, according to Twitter / X

 

[800001]

I’ve heard very strong rumours that Lumo are attempting to borrow a GWR 5 car IET for service Friday 1st Sept, just wondering if anyone can shed any light on if it’s true or not?

 

[PGAT]

Looking at the RTT allocations for tomorrow only 803002, 803004 and 803005 are doing the runs so no IETs