Stansted Airport station queues and railcard app not working

[Starmill]

This guy was charged £50 + £21.90 for a simple case of using his contactless card instead of buying a ticket.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7256256246771141889

The image description is a penalty fares printout showing £50 + £21.90

There are now absolutely enormous signs at London Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale which say that Oyster and Contactless Payment are not available to Stansted Airport. It's difficult to miss them.

I do sympathise with the situation because it's absolutely ridiculous that they're still not available to the Airport, but the information is relatively clear. Not much use if you can't understand English very well though, although it does include pictograms. The information is also on screens and announcements.

 

[Watershed]

It's difficult to miss them.

I do sympathise with the situation because it's absolutely ridiculous that they're still not available to the Airport, but the information is relatively clear. Not much use if you can't understand English very well though, although it does include pictograms. The information is also on screens and announcements.

Although evidently, this still isn't sufficient as you see lots of Oyster/contactless-wielding passengers being 'stung' by RPIs at Stansted.

If Greater Anglia were interested in mitigating this poor situation (which is, admittedly, somewhat outside their control) they wouldn't go straight to Penalty Fares or MG11s. Using Oyster/contactless RIDs to separate out those with non-validated Oyster cards (and retrospectively penalise non-validated contactless holders), and selling those who've made a legitimate mistake a ticket from Tottenham Hale or Broxbourne would seem a reasonable balance.

As always, actions speak louder than words. It's hardly an accident that GA publicise the increased value of the Penalty Fares so prominently on these signs.

 

[furlong]

Worth remembering that the SRA thought including airports in Penalty Fares schemes wasn't a good idea and the previous operator agreed:

4.5 ... However, an operator may not want to include certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:

• serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from this station.

and originally:

2.7 At the time of writing, the following train companies have a penalty fares scheme which we have approved on all or part of their network.
...
West Anglia Great Northern (all routes except passengers to and from Stansted Airport)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

The SRA also expected discretion to be shown to foreign visitors:

4.30 Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion. We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:
• passengers who are not aware of the scheme because they... are a foreign visitor who lives abroad...

Once again, why did the DfT just sweep away all this very sensible guidance without consultation or replacement? Where is the Transport Focus compaign to reinstate this guidance?

 

[jon81uk]

Is there any FOI angle that would apply? To ask how many contactless/Oyster cases they get routinely at Stansted Airport station.

That information probably isn't recorded as the revenue protection people won't be able to read the cards, they just treat it as not having a ticket and issue the penalty. The reason would probably get recorded as no ticket.

 

[SuspectUsual]

That information probably isn't recorded as the revenue protection people won't be able to read the cards, they just treat it as not having a ticket and issue the penalty. The reason would probably get recorded as no ticket.

If data were available as to the number of penalty fares issued for Stansted Airport and other stations of comparable passenger numbers, one might be able to infer the approximate number of excess penalties

 

[Feuillesmortes]

That link returns a 404 error for me. Maybe the video has been deleted?

The link somehow got shortened but this is a image (description is a orange penalty fare document showing a £50 + £21.90 penalty fare)

 

[island]

If data were available as to the number of penalty fares issued for Stansted Airport and other stations of comparable passenger numbers, one might be able to infer the approximate number of excess penalties

But Greater Anglia is not subject to FOI, so that doesn't arise.

 

[800001]

Just arrived at Stanstead by plane, touched down at 1625, and am on the 1643 departure to London.

Staff waving people past towards the train with big smiles and a very helpful attitude.

 

[fandroid]

Just arrived at Stanstead by plane, touched down at 1625, and am on the 1643 departure to London.

Staff waving people past towards the train with big smiles and a very helpful attitude.

It's the other way around that the problems arise

 

[1D54]

Just arrived at Stanstead by plane, touched down at 1625, and am on the 1643 departure to London.

Staff waving people past towards the train with big smiles and a very helpful attitude.

You done well there fella. I'd love a minute breakdown on how that was done. Internal flight by any chance?

 

[800001]

You done well there fella. I'd love a minute breakdown on how that was done. Internal flight by any chance?

Ryan air from Germany, Row 6 on plane, really fast walking and straight up to the E-gate as multiple free. Also hand luggage only! Only just made train, and was rushing as booked train out of Kings Cross cancelled so was rushing like mad for an earlier one.

 

[Huntergreed]

You done well there fella. I'd love a minute breakdown on how that was done. Internal flight by any chance?

Stansted is easily do-able in 15-20 minutes if at a convenient gate and the queues aren't too bad at immigration!

I've managed it a few times before.

 

[1D54]

Good on ya. Always book cheapies at the back on FR and am a quick walker but have never had the required luck on making my desired train at STN.. Hope springs eternal.

 

[Watershed]

It's possible to do in around 10 minutes from 'doors open' if you're lucky with gate positioning and passport queues. I'd plan to allow at least an hour though, as flights are often delayed. I've rarely had a slow passport queue on arrival though - there are lots of e-gates and they tend to all be in use (unlike other airports!).

 

[BJames]

I remember a reasonably quick exit when I was last there but that is seriously impressive! Its good to hear no staff issues.

I think this may have been mentioned upthread but I've noticed the Stansted Express ambassadors at Liverpool Street the last few times I've been there - checking everyone who looks like they might be going to the airport and asking to see their tickets before boarding. In the 10 minutes I observed while I was waiting for my train, they stopped three separate groups of people who were a matter of seconds away from tapping in with contactless, and a few others came up asking how tickets worked for Stansted Express. Great that they're there now, but the amount of people who think that they can just pay as they turn up is higher than I'd expected to see.

For anyone who is unaware of these people I think I saw them wearing OnTrak lanyards - but they stand around Liv St gatelines in red hi vis.

 

[Farigiraf]

Arriving back from Edinburgh before, I've managed to get from plane to station in under 10 minutes! Unfortunately missed the previous train by 15 minutes (Saw it depart from the plane window) so any time saved didn't matter.

 

[sct]

I've found this thread as I (and several others on my train) was charged a penalty fare at Stansted on Friday, having changed from the tube the overground at Tottenham Hale. I have no idea if I'll be successful on appeal (and can deal if not) but I think this is a really poor business practice by Greater Anglia which needs to be challenged.

The fact that there are lines of ticket officers who spring immediately to issuing a £50 fine just seems bad faith (the officer said he had no discretion, which I am surprised about). It seems to me to be taking advantage of a confusing ticketing system and a vulnerable customer base - by virtue of the fact that many will be international travelers and unfamiliar with the UK rail system/not English speakers. It sounds like I probably did miss signs at Tottenham Hale - I didn't really give it a second thought as I am used to travelling from Gatwick, where you have been able to use contactless for several years. Regardless, it should be obvious that I did not have an intention to evade the fare as I had an 'uncompleted' contactless journey.

I see London Travelwatch did release figures on fines back in 2019, so this has long been a known issue and nothing has changed. I have written to them requesting updated figures and to Greater Anglia asking what they have done to address.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've found this thread as I (and several others on my train) was charged a penalty fare at Stansted on Friday, having changed from the tube the overground at Tottenham Hale. [...]

[...] It sounds like I probably did miss signs at Tottenham Hale - I didn't really give it a second thought as I am used to travelling from Gatwick, where you have been able to use contactless for several years. [...]

Just to note, I was at Tottenham Hale recently and there was oodles of very prominent, bold and colourful signage in the NR ticket hall and on all the NR ticket gates (lots of bright red background, pictograms of aeroplanes and also crossed-out Oyster cards and contactless symbols), including large posters in English and five other European languages.

That being said, I watched one half of a Stansted-bound couple saunter through the gates using contactless or Oyster quite oblivious to this - the other half seemed less sure and didn't pass through, looked around and realised they needed a seperate ticket. They sought advice and it looked like the resolution was for her to pass back out through the gate (using contactless a same station exit within 2 mins isn't chargeable... though do it too often and I imagine there'd be a different result), enabling them to go off and buy some tickets.

 

[BJames]

I've found this thread as I (and several others on my train) was charged a penalty fare at Stansted on Friday, having changed from the tube the overground at Tottenham Hale. I have no idea if I'll be successful on appeal (and can deal if not) but I think this is a really poor business practice by Greater Anglia which needs to be challenged.

The fact that there are lines of ticket officers who spring immediately to issuing a £50 fine just seems bad faith (the officer said he had no discretion, which I am surprised about). It seems to me to be taking advantage of a confusing ticketing system and a vulnerable customer base - by virtue of the fact that many will be international travelers and unfamiliar with the UK rail system/not English speakers. It sounds like I probably did miss signs at Tottenham Hale - I didn't really give it a second thought as I am used to travelling from Gatwick, where you have been able to use contactless for several years. Regardless, it should be obvious that I did not have an intention to evade the fare as I had an 'uncompleted' contactless journey.

I see London Travelwatch did release figures on fines back in 2019, so this has long been a known issue and nothing has changed. I have written to them requesting updated figures and to Greater Anglia asking what they have done to address.

Welcome to the forum!

I understand your situation is frustrating, and why it does seem like an unfair penalisation. I imagine the comment about no discretion is that everyone arriving in this situation will have the same backstory - in a rush for the train, didn't realise etc - as I expect they would have the discretion if there was a compelling situation.

For what it's worth in terms of addressing the situation, efforts have been made recently at Liverpool Street to stop people tapping in for the Stansted Express including the creation of 'Stansted Express Ambassadors' (I think this is their title) who are stopping as many as they can boarding the train to check their tickets. The barriers, or at least at Liv St Platforms 1-3, have stickers over the oyster card readers saying not to tap in for Stansted. Sounds like this initiative has not extended to Tottenham Hale - if it hasn't, it should be considered.

If you would like specific advice, please do feel free to start a new thread in this section (Disputes & Prosecutions) - although you have done all you can at this moment. Without preempting the outcome, it is likely that the appeal would only be successful on a technicality e.g. the absence of appropriate signage. I'm not sure the situation at Tottenham Hale.

 

[fandroid]

If Greater Anglia was really taking this seriously, they could put staff equipped with ticket machines at Tottenham Hale
behind the gateline to intercept anyone who looks Stansted-bound and has tapped in. As they will have committed no offence at that point, a normal ticket could be issued. No "discretion" required, just good customer service. As less revenue protection would then be needed at Stansted, there should be staff available.

 

[Buzby]

I'm normally pro card payment, e-tickets etc but at present my advice to anyone is to opt for a plastic Railcard (though sadly 26-30 can't). The system is unfit for purpose.

As am I - but I opted for the plastic 3 year as I felt it was less of a faff. (Photo etc). For someone who has one, I’m assuming it is not a dynamic image - one that changes based on time or location? Therefore is the answer not to take a screen grab of the display and store it in photos, so that an external connection is an irrelevance? Or is that too simple?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As am I - but I opted for the plastic 3 year as I felt it was less of a faff. (Photo etc). For someone who has one, I’m assuming it is not a dynamic image - one that changes based on time or location? Therefore is the answer not to take a screen grab of the display and store it in photos, so that an external connection is an irrelevanc? Or is that too simple?

Screenshots are not accepted as valid (unlike e-tickets which can* be presented in any scannable form).

* Though as with anything I've heard of clueless staff claiming otherwise.

 

[Haywain]

Regardless, it should be obvious that I did not have an intention to evade the fare as I had an 'uncompleted' contactless journey.

A Penalty Fare is, in effect, an acknowledgement that this was not intentional fare evasion.

 

[Buzby]

Being 1 in a queue of 200 - I would imagine a screenshot that looked like a digital railcard (to all intents and purpose) would pass muster? They might not like it, but if the darn system is broken a belt and braces approach seems the most effective way of resolving the problem.

 

[DeverseSam]

(the officer said he had no discretion, which I am surprised about).

He did have discretion and could have been more harsh by prosecuting if you had failed the attitude test. How was the queuing time by the way?

 

[sct]

He did have discretion and could have been more harsh by prosecuting if you had failed the attitude test. How was the queuing time by the way?

So presumably he also had discretion to waive the Penalty Fare on the basis that this was an innocent and common error rather than an attempt to fare evade - although I agree with @BJames that in that case they would be waiving for most people. And if they did that it would cut across this nice little revenue stream for Greater Anglia!

Queue was long and frustrating - my experience was obviously longer as I had to deal with the Penalty Fare, but I think the average customer with the correct ticket probably had to queue for 5-7 minutes just to exit the ticket barriers.

I have now made a separate thread to discuss this as suggested so will stop replying here as don't want to derail, but thank you for the helpful replies all, which I very much appreciate.

 

[_toommm_]

As am I - but I opted for the plastic 3 year as I felt it was less of a faff. (Photo etc). For someone who has one, I’m assuming it is not a dynamic image - one that changes based on time or location? Therefore is the answer not to take a screen grab of the display and store it in photos, so that an external connection is an irrelevance? Or is that too simple?

The National Rail logo on the bottom right of the railcard (as below) shimmers, changing between different shades of blue, pink, and purple fairly regularly. Sort of how the colour changes on ChromaFlair paint on cars (rather niche so feel free to Google):

 

[island]

So presumably he also had discretion to waive the Penalty Fare on the basis that this was an innocent and common error rather than an attempt to fare evade

A Penalty Fare is the correct way of dealing with passengers who have made an error by not purchasing the correct ticket for their journeys.

 

[Cowley]

I have now made a separate thread to discuss this as suggested so will stop replying here as don't want to derail, but thank you for the helpful replies all, which I very much appreciate.

Ok, I think we’ll wrap things up there for now then.

Thanks everyone