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Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

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Topological

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Isn't this what TfW already do on Cardiff to Manchester?
Yes, and need to increase the fares to make it work rather than add the "ultra-cheap" fares that are suggested by @PacerTrain142

Maybe TfW got it wrong bringing the 197s to the route and/or the Mk4 lottery.

In fairness if we could be guaranteed a 6 car minimum then it would be nice enough for TfW to retain their 150s on the Marches (Now there is controversial)
 
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Mcr Warrior

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All trains, even on express routes, should have a maximum speed of 60mph. That way passengers would be able to relax more, enjoy the scenery and arrive at their destination far more calmer than they otherwise would have been.

You’re really taking the “without a firm foundation in logic” to another level

To be fair, @CaptainHaddock's suggestion was widely trialled across the majority of the GB network in late 2000 for a period immediately after what had happened at Hatfield. :s
 

The Ham

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Its pretty easy to define, you just research the annual net payments to Northern and TPE by DfT, and compare them to the sum total of SWR, Southeastern, Greater Anglia, c2c, GTR and Chiltern. (Obviously WMT and GWR are difficult to break down)

Whilst what you say is correct, it's not easy to define regionally like the data used for infrastructure. For example how would you split it South East/London or Northwest/Northeast/Humberside? It was in the context of regional spending in which I made the comment that it was hard to define.

Likewise I'm not aware of the Infrastructure spending being split by TOC (and I doubt that there is, as it's all infrastructure so why would you split road and energy infrastructure spending by a railway zoned area), unless someone is aware of data on that.

Even if there was a way to split it (regionally or by TOC), one thing which is often overlooked is that not all of the infrastructure spending is necessarily government money - as the full value is counted even if a tiny amount is from the government. For example if a water board are building a new sewer for £10 million and a local council puts in £20,000 so a local school previously not on the mains is linked to the sewer then the full £10 million is counted.
 

daodao

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Maybe TfW got it wrong bringing the 197s to the route and/or the Mk4 lottery.
Not only TfW. All loco-hauled carriage stock (at Scotrail, GWR, TPE and Chiltern, as well as TfW) should be removed from service asap and sent to Sims in Newport for scrapping due to high running costs and unreliability. The locos could be retained for freight use. Multiple units are much better for today's passenger railway.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Not only TfW. All loco-hauled carriage stock (at Scotrail, GWR, TPE and Chiltern, as well as TfW) should be removed from service asap and sent to Sims in Newport for scrapping due to high running costs and unreliability. The locos could be retained for freight use. Multiple units are much better for today's passenger railway.

I would agree, but not until suitable replacements have been delivered. Getting the orders in now would be positive, e.g. a larger number of 197s for TfW, maybe even some dedicated long distance 5 or 6 car sets with proper 1st and a buffet.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Indeed although that was 20mph wasn't it? TSR after TSR, it took forever to get anywhere.
Don't recall it having been quite that slow across all of the network. Journey times from Manchester to/from London were certainly significantly extended, but don't think they (typically) ever took eight or nine hours or so.
 

12LDA28C

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Don't recall it having been quite that slow across all of the network. Journey times from Manchester to/from London were certainly significantly extended, but don't recall them (typically) taking eight or nine hours or so.

Not 20mph throughout but certainly 20mph TSRs all over the network. On CrossCountry routes trains often terminated short of destination (eg Southampton vice Bournemouth) due to late running and having to form their return working.
 

WelshBluebird

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Not only TfW. All loco-hauled carriage stock (at Scotrail, GWR, TPE and Chiltern, as well as TfW) should be removed from service asap and sent to Sims in Newport for scrapping due to high running costs and unreliability. The locos could be retained for freight use. Multiple units are much better for today's passenger railway.
To counter that, I think it is utterly barmy that we are scrapping rolling stock (loco hauled, HST's, pacers etc) when many areas of the network are suffering hugely from a shortage of rolling stock.
 

D6130

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Not 20mph throughout but certainly 20mph TSRs all over the network. On CrossCountry routes trains often terminated short of destination (eg Southampton vice Bournemouth) due to late running and having to form their return working.
That's correct. It took me 4 hours and 43 minutes to travel from Leeds to Kings Cross - via Hertford of course - the evening prior to my Eurostar driver's interview. No wonder I failed....just! :(
 

eldomtom2

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As for controversial takes, many say that Marples was the real villain rather than Beeching... I say Barbara Castle was the real villain, as she could have "pumped the brakes" but chose not to.
Castle absolutely pumped the brakes, she just didn't bring the whole thing to a screeching halt.
 

D6130

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Castle absolutely pumped the brakes, she just didn't bring the whole thing to a screeching halt.
That is correct. Barbara Castle introduced the (Section 8?) grant aid for unremunerative rail passenger services....although she did allow a small number of closures to go ahead....the Waverley Route, the Honeybourne Line and Skipton-Colne, amongst others (the latter having not been proposed for closure in the Beeching Report). Most of the Beeching closures which happened after the 1964 Labour election victory were carried out on the watch of her predecessor, Tom Fraser.
 

Taunton

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That is correct. Barbara Castle introduced the (Section 8?) grant aid for unremunerative rail passenger services....although she did allow a small number of closures to go ahead....the Waverley Route, the Honeybourne Line and Skipton-Colne, amongst others (the latter having not been proposed for closure in the Beeching Report). Most of the Beeching closures which happened after the 1964 Labour election victory were carried out on the watch of her predecessor, Tom Fraser.
Barbara Castle also fired Gerry Fiennes (egged on by the civil servants) because of a two-line mention in his book about how the decision to merge the ER and NER was on her desk for 11 months for a simple yes/no, but then expected everyone to put it all in place within a few weeks.
 

fwsmVor

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Ex-intercity MUs should have their driving equipment chopped off and be turned into fixed-formation LHCS to be dragged around by electric locomotives with a nice big fireproof barrier at each end. This is the only safe and affordable way to battery-ify branch lines, if you don't count electric-steam tank engines "charged" at each end, which the deep railway will never let happen.
 

Robert Ambler

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Is there a mechanism for an English Region to do that? I don't think so.
Any local government body that has a transport infrastructure remit (ie first tier local government so County Councils, Unitary Authorities etc in England for example) could use the Community Infrastructure Levy or S106 Planning Provisions to fund public transport infrastructure if they chose to do so.
 

Royston Vasey

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Yes, and need to increase the fares to make it work rather than add the "ultra-cheap" fares that are suggested by @PacerTrain142

Maybe TfW got it wrong bringing the 197s to the route and/or the Mk4 lottery.

In fairness if we could be guaranteed a 6 car minimum then it would be nice enough for TfW to retain their 150s on the Marches (Now there is controversial)
And heres a controversial opinion with no basis in accepted fact - I recently did Cardiff to Manchester and chose the front 153 of a 153+153+158 lash up and thought the seats were comfortable, it was well laid out for the length of journey, the visibility was fine, the fresh air and the Cummins roar from the windows was a joy, the ride was smooth and I thoroughly enjoyed the trip.
 

yorksrob

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And heres a controversial opinion with no basis in accepted fact - I recently did Cardiff to Manchester and chose the front 153 of a 153+153+158 lash up and thought the seats were comfortable, it was well laid out for the length of journey, the visibility was fine, the fresh air and the Cummins roar from the windows was a joy, the ride was smooth and I thoroughly enjoyed the trip.

Less controversial than you might think !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

decision to merge the ER and NER was on her desk for 11 months for a simple yes/no, but then expected everyone to put it all in place within a few weeks.

I think that anyone who's worked with Government has experienced this on occasions.
 

Krokodil

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Funnily enough in a thread a few years ago there was mention of a Leeds to London service being cancelled in the 1980s with a spare HST picking up the run from Doncaster. Neville Hill managed to find a spare 141 to run to Donny and make the connection, complete with a trolley service!
FGW once sent an Exeter Pacer on a 1AXX vice HST. It got as far as Swindon before someone put a stop to the fun.

Any local government body that has a transport infrastructure remit (ie first tier local government so County Councils, Unitary Authorities etc in England for example) could use the Community Infrastructure Levy or S106 Planning Provisions to fund public transport infrastructure if they chose to do so.
Most of the shire counties don't have the sort of funds to front that sort of cash though. They can only do the odd station. Where regional bodies have been formed, they have the sort of scale necessary to do it - Scotland, Wales, Greater London, Greater Manchester, Liverpool City Region etc. One reason that the Bristol Supertram didn't go ahead was that trying to get the individual local authorities to cooperate was like herding cats. Something that might not have been an issue when "Avon" was still a thing.
 

Topological

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And heres a controversial opinion with no basis in accepted fact - I recently did Cardiff to Manchester and chose the front 153 of a 153+153+158 lash up and thought the seats were comfortable, it was well laid out for the length of journey, the visibility was fine, the fresh air and the Cummins roar from the windows was a joy, the ride was smooth and I thoroughly enjoyed the trip.
Quite. If there is sufficient capacity then all is good.

The problem comes when only 2 carriages run. In that case I think 153>150 but others have different opinions.

Really hope the 197 is not going to mean a permanent 2 coach arrangement on the Manchesters (not presently planned to be)
 

Thirteen

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The idea that we need a low cost train like the Pacers is somewhat daft because it'd be a lot cheaper to replace some services with Trams/light rail. I would imagine we'll probably have battery powered light rail systems on those rural and branch lines.
 

Krokodil

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How many operators run 17-coach trains?
Nil in the UK. If I remember the Highland Sleeper shunt moves correctly there is a few minutes where the whole lot is coupled at Edinburgh before the FTW seated coach is split off, but as the train doesn't leave the station in this case, it doesn't really count.
 

jfowkes

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How many operators run 17-coach trains?
Only takes two fleet replacement before you get there though. If a fleet gets replaced on average every 20 years, you start with 12-car trains and in 40 years time you have 27 car trains. In 400 years you have a train stretching from Lands End to John O' Groats. In 580 years you can stretch a train round the equator. And in a millennium, you can get to the sun.

*assuming 30m long carriages
 

Krokodil

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I always reckoned that the solution to FGW's Reading overcrowding issues was to couple all of their HST trailers together such that they stretched from Paddington to Reading. You then just tell passengers that there's more room up front and they will walk home.

No, I never did the maths to see how many HST trailers were needed.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Too many posts to read them all, so hoping I'm not repeating anything but: Skip-stopping should be banned in timetables - especially on long-distance routes. :)
 

al78

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All trains, even on express routes, should have a maximum speed of 60mph. That way ...
we could solve overcrowding by making many services unviable compared to the car, because people who have regular commitments and responsibilities, and have many demands on their time don't have the time to move at a trundlebunny pace.
 

Train Maniac

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I always reckoned that the solution to FGW's Reading overcrowding issues was to couple all of their HST trailers together such that they stretched from Paddington to Reading. You then just tell passengers that there's more room up front and they will walk home.

No, I never did the maths to see how many HST trailers were needed.
(assuming the length of a Mk3 coach is 23 metres) About 2,497 :D
 

ar10642

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I'd rather travel on an ageing 12 coach train than a full and standing shiny new 195!

Actually that raises another controversial opinion; when TOCs introduce new trains it should be mandatory for them to have at least 50% greater capacity than the trains they're replacing.

Would love to see how this works on Thameslink
 
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