Trivia - NBC Bristol VR double deckers

[busesrusuk]

Three of the Southern Vectis VRs were sold to Lowland in 1990-91 - 650/5/6 (MDL650R, NDL655/6R). The last one is preserved as Lowland 856 and still has its Southern Vectis fleetnumber at the foot of the stairs, which its owners have retained as a nod to its past.

I didn't realise the pedigree of this bus when I photographed it earlier this year at the Kirkby Stephen rally - it looked in pretty good condition :

Preserved Lowland Scottish 856 Apr23

Kirkby Stephen rally, Apr 2023

www.flickr.com

 

[DunsBus]

I didn't realise the pedigree of this bus when I photographed it earlier this year at the Kirkby Stephen rally - it looked in pretty good condition :

Preserved Lowland Scottish 856 Apr23

Kirkby Stephen rally, Apr 2023

www.flickr.com

It is. Bought by the owners straight out of Lowland service in 1998 and then underwent a very through restoration, its maiden outing as a preserved bus being in January 2017.

 

[Eyersey468]

Did they have VRs?

Yes, 70 bought new plus 13 secondhand ones,not counting any VRs bought secondhand for Solent Blue Line (now Bluestar)

 

[Man of Kent]

No, it was/is Southern Vectis - a separate NBC company but now under common ownership with Wilts & Dorset as part of the Go Ahead group.

And for an outstanding piece of trivia, both Southern Vectis's and East Kent's fleets of lowheight VRT3s were numbered 650-685 (East Kent staff never used the fleetnumbers introduced in the late 1970s and stuck to the registrations).

 

[busesrusuk]

Just to add to the debate,
I'm looking back through my "ECW 1965-1987" book and, if I've understood the appendix properly, it states that there were 2858 VR chassis receiving ECW bodywork including the 30 Coach bodied examples for Standerwick.

Whilst the thread was started to discuss the NBC examples, for completeness, there were also the following companies that bought the ECW body on the VR:

SELNEC
A Mayne
Stevensons
H&C
Burnley & Pendle
UKEA
Lincoln
Great Yarmouth
1 export bus for Leyland Nederland BV
SBG
Depot of the Environment
Cardiff

A an FYI, The very low height version (13ft 5in) were also delivered new to Alder Valley, Oxford, Yorkshire Traction, Maidstone & District, Southern Vectis, Cumberland, National Welsh and Oxford if none of those have yet to be mentioned..

 

[BVW]

Anyway we'll be accused of the heinous crime of being off-topic if we continue! The last NBC VR was Eastern Counties VR294 (VEX294X), which is fortunately still with us in preservation. That being said, the VEX-X batch went as far as VR304 so I'm not sure why VR294 gets that distinction.

Strap in, this is a convoluted one! United Counties were due to receive nine Olympians as part of their 1981 order but ended up with twenty of them as an extra six were diverted from Alder Valley (these became ARP 601-3/9-11X) and five from Southdown (ARP 612-6X). As a consequence their final ten VRs were placed straight into store without being licenced in June 1981, though they were assigned as VVV 968-77W. The surplus VRs were then acquired by Eastern Counties in August 1981 and voided their original marks in favour of VEX 295-304X.

Meanwhile, Alder Valley had received a large quantity of VRs in late 1980 which were diverted from Maidstone & District and East Kent which resulted in AV's projected 1981 order of eighteen VRs being diverted to Eastern Counties as VR277-94 (VAH 277-82X, VEX 283-94X). There was talk at the time that ECOC's Chief Engineer wasn't enamoured with the prospect of Olympians so these were something of a boost, considering that the company had only ordered six to begin with. VR294 was allocated to Lowestoft depot from new as a nod to its status and spent its entire service life there.

 

[Eyersey468]

Strap in, this is a convoluted one! United Counties were due to receive nine Olympians as part of their 1981 order but ended up with twenty of them as an extra six were diverted from Alder Valley (these became ARP 601-3/9-11X) and five from Southdown (ARP 612-6X). As a consequence their final ten VRs were placed straight into store without being licenced in June 1981, though they were assigned as VVV 968-77W. The surplus VRs were then acquired by Eastern Counties in August 1981 and voided their original marks in favour of VEX 295-304X.

Meanwhile, Alder Valley had received a large quantity of VRs in late 1980 which were diverted from Maidstone & District and East Kent which resulted in AV's projected 1981 order of eighteen VRs being diverted to Eastern Counties as VR277-94 (VAH 277-82X, VEX 283-94X). There was talk at the time that ECOC's Chief Engineer wasn't enamoured with the prospect of Olympians so these were something of a boost, considering that the company had only ordered six to being with. VR294 was allocated to Lowestoft depot from new as a nod to its status and spent its entire service life there.

Apologies if this is off topic but why was EVOCs Chief Engineer not keen on Olympians at the time?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apologies if this is off topic but why was EVOCs Chief Engineer not keen on Olympians at the time?

Some chief engineers may be slightly reticent to be "early adopters" as design glitches are not always apparent in testing. The VR was a dependable workhorse though not without faults whilst the Olympian was a leap into the unknown.

Interesting that Alder Valley and Southdown didn't get their Olympians, and never did get any.

The diverting of vehicles on delivery or just before was remarkably common. I recall my local NBC firm getting a few batches of vehicles with telltale differences - one set of VRs had moquette seats which was a luxury, whilst a batch of LHs had sets of overhead luggage racks on both off and near side.

Trying to think which firms had high back seated DP VRs from new? I think United, Alder Valley, City of Oxford, Hants and Dorset, Eastern Counties

National Welsh, Northern, Southern National and Badgerline were amongst those that retrofitted them

 

[Eyersey468]

Some chief engineers may be slightly reticent to be "early adopters" as design glitches are not always apparent in testing. The VR was a dependable workhorse though not without faults whilst the Olympian was a leap into the unknown.

Interesting that Alder Valley and Southdown didn't get their Olympians, and never did get any.

The diverting of vehicles on delivery or just before was remarkably common. I recall my local NBC firm getting a few batches of vehicles with telltale differences - one set of VRs had moquette seats which was a luxury, whilst a batch of LHs had sets of overhead luggage racks on both off and near side.

Trying to think which firms had high back seated DP VRs from new? I think United, Alder Valley, City of Oxford, Hants and Dorset, Eastern Counties

National Welsh, Northern, Southern National and Badgerline were amongst those that retrofitted them

Thank you for the explanation. I wonder why it was so common for vehicles to get diverted

 

[A0]

A an FYI, The very low height version (13ft 5in) were also delivered new to Alder Valley, Oxford, Yorkshire Traction, Maidstone & District, Southern Vectis, Cumberland, National Welsh and Oxford if none of those have yet to be mentioned..

I believe United Counties also got some of a very low height version - because some were allocated to Hitchin depot where they had to be able to navigate the Cambridge Road railway bridge, just north of Hitchin station and that's 13' 3" - they passed to Luton & District when United Counties was split and lasted a number of years, some ending their days on school contracts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you for the explanation. I wonder why it was so common for vehicles to get diverted

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, production schedules were massively disrupted by industrial action and that was often a factor.

Also, around 1980-2, you had two other factors so you had vehicles that were ordered a year in advance but then delayed (so perhaps a lead time of 18 months).

• In the meantime, a Market Analysis Project would be undertaken and a reduced vehicle requirement would mean that either the vehicles weren't then required or were considered unaffordable, or conversely, you needed more deckers and so they'd be diverted from elsewhere
• There would have been a carefully negotiated agreement to convert services to one person operation (perhaps based on the introduction of new vehicles); rather than delay the move, vehicles would be diverted from elsewhere

 

[Eyersey468]

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, production schedules were massively disrupted by industrial action and that was often a factor.

Also, around 1980-2, you had two other factors so you had vehicles that were ordered a year in advance but then delayed (so perhaps a lead time of 18 months).

• In the meantime, a Market Analysis Project would be undertaken and a reduced vehicle requirement would mean that either the vehicles weren't then required or were considered unaffordable, or conversely, you needed more deckers and so they'd be diverted from elsewhere
• There would have been a carefully negotiated agreement to convert services to one person operation (perhaps based on the introduction of new vehicles); rather than delay the move, vehicles would be diverted from elsewhere

Thank you

 

[MotCO]

In the late 1970s/early 1980s, production schedules were massively disrupted by industrial action and that was often a factor.

Also, around 1980-2, you had two other factors so you had vehicles that were ordered a year in advance but then delayed (so perhaps a lead time of 18 months).

• In the meantime, a Market Analysis Project would be undertaken and a reduced vehicle requirement would mean that either the vehicles weren't then required or were considered unaffordable, or conversely, you needed more deckers and so they'd be diverted from elsewhere
• There would have been a carefully negotiated agreement to convert services to one person operation (perhaps based on the introduction of new vehicles); rather than delay the move, vehicles would be diverted from elsewhere

Also, London Country received diverted orders to help cope with their chronic no-vehicle available problems. From memory, they received 21 Reliance/Alexander DP coaches used on route 725, and 30 Atlanteans destined for Midland Red.

 

[TheSel]

I think Maidstone & District was the only fleet with all three height variations bought new: 13ft5in, 13ft8in and 14ft6in.

Think so.

I have seen a photo (it may have been an old 'Buses Annual') where someone had chanced on one of each type together.

A quick search on Flickr only got me as far as two out of three (high bridge and low height, but not standard) here (not my photo, of course)

In terms of ECW bodied examples bought new, yes. But it's worth noting that Ribble operated all three heights from an early stage when two 13'8" CBV-S registered examples were swapped for two 13'5" URF-S examples from PMT. If I recall correctly this swap was made at Ribble's request, to facilitate double deck operation of the Arnside service which passed under a 13'6" bridge.

PMT also swapped three 13'5" URF-S for three 13'8" SKG-S reg examples with National Welsh, almost when their paint was still wet!

And while we're on about National Welsh, they not only operated 13'5 and 13'8" ECW bodied VR's from new, they also bought VRs with "full height" (14'+) bodies by both Alexander and MCW, from Tayside and West Midlands PTE (respectively) in the early 1980s. National Welsh were very particular about differentiating between these vehicles following a tragic and fatal low-bridge deroofing accident, using a fleet numbering system 'LR...'. (13'5"), 'HR....' (13'8") and 'XR....' (14'+).

 

[A0]

Also, London Country received diverted orders to help cope with their chronic no-vehicle available problems. From memory, they received 21 Reliance/Alexander DP coaches used on route 725, and 30 Atlanteans destined for Midland Red.

Bit in bold - they weren't Reliances, they were Swifts - the class was SMA http://www.countrybus.org/merlswft/SMA.html

 

[nw1]

Midland Red did not have any VRs delivered new.

Only when Oswestry, Macclesfield and Crewe depots of Crosville were folded into Midland Red North were there significant VRs wearing some sort of Midland Red fleetname. Midland Red West had a couple on loan at Redditch c.1987, and there were a few in Leicester (but that was in Midland Fox days).

If you want a bus operating NBC firm that didn't operate VRs.... then suggest Shamrock and Rambler. Of course, a predominantly coach operator, they did operate minibuses (and Nationals in its last Drawlane days) but not deckers

I remember seeing a distinctly old Midland Red VR (perhaps J or K reg?) in Stafford in summer 1984, and it surprised me as I'd only ever noticed single deckers in the Stafford area before. Also it didn't have the "Chaserider" branding typical of the time, just plain "Midland Red".

Any idea what that would have been? Don't think it was showing a route number, or if it did, I've forgotten it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

Strap in, this is a convoluted one! United Counties were due to receive nine Olympians as part of their 1981 order but ended up with twenty of them as an extra six were diverted from Alder Valley (these became ARP 601-3/9-11X) and five from Southdown (ARP 612-6X). As a consequence their final ten VRs were placed straight into store without being licenced in June 1981, though they were assigned as VVV 968-77W. The surplus VRs were then acquired by Eastern Counties in August 1981 and voided their original marks in favour of VEX 295-304X.

Meanwhile, Alder Valley had received a large quantity of VRs in late 1980 which were diverted from Maidstone & District and East Kent which resulted in AV's projected 1981 order of eighteen VRs being diverted to Eastern Counties as VR277-94 (VAH 277-82X, VEX 283-94X).

Not the GGM xxW batch, which were AV's newest VRs? (AV was my local company so I'm familiar with most of the registrations...)

I never saw an X-registered VR, though W-registered ones seemed to be particularly common, just about every NBC company (or successor) that I saw having a batch.

 

[RT4038]

I believe United Counties also got some of a very low height version - because some were allocated to Hitchin depot where they had to be able to navigate the Cambridge Road railway bridge, just north of Hitchin station and that's 13' 3" - they passed to Luton & District when United Counties was split and lasted a number of years, some ending their days on school contracts.

They were originally all allocated to Luton (three batches of 5 each), because they could pass under the railway bridge by Leagrave Station (now bypassed). I would think service reductions and single decking would have rendered some surplus later for Hitchin!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I remember seeing a distinctly old Midland Red VR (perhaps J or K reg?) in Stafford in summer 1984, and it surprised me as I'd only ever noticed single deckers in the Stafford area before. Also it didn't have the "Chaserider" branding typical of the time, just plain "Midland Red".

Any idea what that would have been? Don't think it was showing a route number, or if it did, I've forgotten it.

I think you're mistaken as Midland Red definitely didn't have VRs at that time. If it was J reg, it would have been an Alexander bodied Fleetline (either native or an ex Trent example), or a Northern Counties example (ex Harper Bros).

More likely is that it was one of the ex Harper Bros ECW bodied Fleetlines, as illustrated by Zippy

https://www.flickr.com/photos/theor...-KSVckw-RMGgoQ-2jzYT31-29T9nxK-sYu7Jv-M9NWDA/

 

[nw1]

I think you're mistaken as Midland Red definitely didn't have VRs at that time. If it was J reg, it would have been an Alexander bodied Fleetline (either native or an ex Trent example), or a Northern Counties example (ex Harper Bros).

More likely is that it was one of the ex Harper Bros ECW bodied Fleetlines, as illustrated by Zippy

https://www.flickr.com/photos/theor...-KSVckw-RMGgoQ-2jzYT31-29T9nxK-sYu7Jv-M9NWDA/

Ah, possibly, yes - thanks for that. The front looks rather VR-like so I could have mistaken it for a VR. I didn't get a good look at it, was in the family car and we pretty much zipped past it.

 

[MotCO]

Bit in bold - they weren't Reliances, they were Swifts - the class was SMA http://www.countrybus.org/merlswft/SMA.html

Of course they were

 

[BVW]

Not the GGM xxW batch, which were AV's newest VRs? (AV was my local company so I'm familiar with most of the registrations...)

I never saw an X-registered VR, though W-registered ones seemed to be particularly common, just about every NBC company (or successor) that I saw having a batch.

Alder Valley 621/2 (KKK 887/8V) came from Maidstone & District without being operated along with 623-30 (GGM 103-10W) which were diverted from there, while 631-44 (HJB 451-64W) were originally intended for East Kent.

 

[nw1]

Alder Valley 621/2 (KKK 887/8V) came from Maidstone & District without being operated along with 623-30 (GGM 103-10W) which were diverted from there, while 631-44 (HJB 451-64W) were originally intended for East Kent.

Ah ok, thanks. I never saw the HJB batch, though my "patch" was the ex-Aldershot and District garages to the south (Hindhead, Guildford, Woking, Alton, Aldershot). I take it these all went to ex-Thames Valley locations? Also I only started noticing the vehicles and their registrations in around 1984.

I do remember the KKK vehicles, though, both at Alton IIRC.

 

[BVW]

Trying to think which firms had high back seated DP VRs from new? I think United, Alder Valley, City of Oxford, Hants and Dorset, Eastern Counties

The Eastern Counties ones (RAH 268W, VEX 284-7/91X) were also retrofits, which occurred in 1984.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

Ah ok, thanks. I never saw the HJB batch, though my "patch" was the ex-Aldershot and District garages to the south (Hindhead, Guildford, Woking, Alton, Aldershot). I take it these all went to ex-Thames Valley locations? Also I only started noticing the vehicles and their registrations in around 1984.

I do remember the KKK vehicles, though, both at Alton IIRC.

That'll be it, I believe 621-8 were originally at Alton while 629-44 were at High Wycombe.

 

[nw1]

That'll be it, I believe 621-8 were originally at Alton while 629-44 were at High Wycombe.

I do remember seeing some of the GGM 1xxW batch, though not at my "home" depot (Hindhead) nor at my second-most-familiar depot (Guildford). Alton rings a bell.

 

[A0]

They were originally all allocated to Luton (three batches of 5 each), because they could pass under the railway bridge by Leagrave Station (now bypassed). I would think service reductions and single decking would have rendered some surplus later for Hitchin!

I assume when you say 'bypassed' you mean the routes were changed because the 3 nearest bridges to Leagrave are all quite low - Sundon Park Road 13' 9", Grange Ave 13' 3" and Archway Road 12'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Eastern Counties ones (RAH 268W, VEX 284-7/91X) were also retrofits, which occurred in 1984.

TBF, I did wonder about those - I couldn't remember if at least some were delivered with DP seats - thanks for the correction

The other oddity were the Eastern National ones that arrived for the Limited Stop 400 to London in DP livery but, I think, had bus seats

 

[Busaholic]

Of course they were

Nice pic of one taken by Michael Dryhurst in current edition of Classic Bus - I have the print edition.

 

[co-tr-paul]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the excellent website by Rob Sly.
www.bcv.robsly.com

 

[busesrusuk]

Also, London Country received diverted orders to help cope with their chronic no-vehicle available problems. From memory, they received 21 Reliance/Alexander DP coaches used on route 725, and 30 Atlanteans destined for Midland Red.

In addition to the 30 Atlanteans diverted from Midland Red, they also got 11 Fleetlines (AF class) diverted from Western Welsh. These diverted orders added a bit of variety in terms of bodywork. LCBS had generally settled on Park Royal for their deckers but the Midland Red buses had MCW bodywork and the AF's Northern Counties...

In terms of Dual purpose VR's, the later Alder Valley examples had a very non standard (for the time) dual purpose livery for use on their London services. As it happened, Alder Valley did get Olympians during the NBC era as they got a batch of ECW coach bodied examples that replaced the aforementioned dual purpose VR's on the London routes.

Alder Valley 984

Victoria Coach Station

www.flickr.com

Alder Valley 1503

Victoria Coach Station

www.flickr.com

 

[JonathanH]

I recall my local NBC firm getting a few batches of vehicles with telltale differences - one set of VRs had moquette seats which was a luxury

Indeed, the switch to moquette in the 1979 order for some NBC companies, also meant that the ones that retained vinyl seats got an austere plain brown vinyl.

It is a strange phenomenon that some NBC operators continued to specify vinyl seats for their new vehicles after 1979, presumably just on the personal preferences of whoever was in charge of that operator at the time.

I've never quite been able to put together a complete list of which NBC operators went for moquette post 1979, and which didn't. For a small group of operators, the vinyl years were restricted to R, S and T registered vehicles, that is the 1976 to 1978 orders, but others had been vinyl before the NBC standardisation on orange vinyl during 1975, which seemed to align with broadly with the introduction of the 'Phase 2' version of the Leyland National 1.