Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[jamesst]

I had a jolly to Kirkby today, I must say I was a bit disappointed not to get some battery haulage so it looks like the ban on third rail power beyond Fazakerley was tosh.

Having said that, I notice the timetable database shows a traction change at Fazakerley so no one's told the schedulers! http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livetrain/S48848/14/08/23

I notice the posters at Kirkby say "From 14 August normal timetable", I hope this week's 2 tph isn't the new normal.

Not tosh at all, theres currently a special dispensation to allow electric only 777s to Kirkby until Headbolt Lane opens. As soon as that occurs the restriction beyond Fazakerley will resume.

 

[samrammstein]

Spotted some new signs today, must be related to the 777/1 as I don't remember seeing them before.
The first two are at Fazarkerley, the black and white one is just to the South of the station. The notices at Kirkby may have only related to the 777/1 test trains perhaps?

 

[mcnw35282]

I notice the posters at Kirkby say "From 14 August normal timetable", I hope this week's 2 tph isn't the new normal.

Merseyrail press release says expected to last 3 weeks while driver training is carried out

 

[karlbbb]

Was on 777009 this morning and disheartened to see LED segment failures (some permanently off, some with a slight flicker or flashing on and off occasionally) already on the overhead lights. I'm hoping these aren't due to how often they are cycled, which IMO is far, far too much. I understand the energy saving side of it, but the amount of times they go on and off just for going under a small bridge is ridiculous.

 

[samrammstein]

Looking at the open data this lunchtime it appears 777005 has finally left the Wall Siding at New Brighton.
5T61 ran from ML1654 to Kirkdale Depot departing at 1055.

https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackI...TD&Reverse=False&Estimate=False&Detailed=true

 

[315801]

I wonder whether another unit will take it's place but the other thing that I wonder is whether the unit is finally about to turn a wheel in service.

Me and my other half actually spotted a 777 passing the Bidston Tesco store on Saturday coming off the West Kirby but don't know which unit it was, also unfortunately I cannot remember what time we saw it.

 

[Wrex2J78]

777013 has just arrived at New Brighton Wall Siding from Rock Ferry.

 

[karlbbb]

The 777s haven't had a good couple of days. At least three have already been taken out of service today (two from Ormskirk, one from Kirkby), and there were (I believe) two taken off the Ormskirk services yesterday, one of which I was unfortunate enough to be turfed off at Kirkdale. This wasn't actually a bad thing as the train was very warm and didn't seem to be making any attempt to cool itself down. Do the drivers or TMs have any control over cabin temperature?

There was a very angry passenger who thought it was because the train manager had forgot their swipe card and was disseminating this (incorrect) information to other passengers - I saw the TM try two different cards at a number of doors, and shortly after we were kicked off so have to assume it was an issue with the system the readers talk to.

 

[irish_rail]

I genuinely cannot remember a new train fleet with quite such horrific teething troubles (going by what I read on here). Daily failures for first couple of months perhaps, but we are what 7 or 8 months in now??? Stadler really need to up their game, its not fair on the people of Merseyside and Cheshire.

 

[ExRes]

I genuinely cannot remember a new train fleet with quite such horrific teething troubles (going by what I read on here). Daily failures for first couple of months perhaps, but we are what 7 or 8 months in now??? Stadler really need to up their game, its not fair on the people of Merseyside and Cheshire.

I guess the 701s could give them a fair run for their money, although the 701s don't fail in service very often ........

 

[py_megapixel]

I guess the 701s could give them a fair run for their money, although the 701s don't fail in service very often ........

They don't succeed in service very often either...

 

[315801]

You're absolutely right, the 507s when 1st delivered had some teething issues but this was at a time when the wirral line still had plenty of 503s.

Some 503s were transferred to the Northern line to cover for the 507s and from what I remember, the issues were quickly fixed and they were back in service in a far shorter time, however, this was before everything started to become far too technical because the more tech that is built into trains and other vehicles used for transport but for this thread specifically teains, the more problems that are going to happen.

As was pointed out in earlier pages on this thread, the introduction of the 777s should have been held back until all th issues had been dealt with instead of having to sort the issues out in service or during service times. If a fleet of new buses are not introduced into service until all issues have been resolved, why should it not be the case for trains, I have to say this introduction if the 777s has been the worst stock introduction ever, my apologies to anybody who doesn't agree but I am standing by my thoughts on this absolute farce.

 

[Prime586]

Was on 777009 this morning and disheartened to see LED segment failures (some permanently off, some with a slight flicker or flashing on and off occasionally) already on the overhead lights. I'm hoping these aren't due to how often they are cycled, which IMO is far, far too much. I understand the energy saving side of it, but the amount of times they go on and off just for going under a small bridge is ridiculous.

It's most likely a sign that cheap, poor quality or overloaded (i.e. run too close to their maximum output rating) LED drivers have been used for the lighting fixtures. LED light fixtures use Pulse Width Modulation of the output voltage to control the brightness, so the LEDs themselves are flashing on and off several hundred to thousands of times a second. The driver unit controls the width of the pulses, which then deterrmines how long the LEDs stay on for in each cycle and therefore the brightness. Given they have also had premature failures of the LED headlamp units as well which will have similar driver units, it's an indication of the quality of the electronics they have used.

 

[prod_pep]

The 507s' early teething problems were nowhere near as significant as the 777s' problems, this being something I've discussed with several people who remember the 507s' introduction and local press reports of the time. The 503s were transferred to the Northern Line before the 507s were introduced in fact, for the Garston line's reopening at the start of 1978 at a time when the 502s were dwindling in number. They did remain into 1981, but this was reportedly due to increased demand and because the 507 order was scaled back in number. The transferred 503s were also not needed on their native Wirral Line following service reductions.

I fully agree the 777 roll-out is descending into farce, however. The current problems are made much worse by the sheer number of 507/8s to have gone for scrap despite glacial progress in 777 introduction.

They are struggling to run a full service on some days now, with short-formings on the Southport line a daily occurrence and some of the units allocated to these are having to be sacrificed between the peaks to pick up service on other lines. The 1651 Hunts X - Southport was short-formed two days in a row this week, an outrageous scenario for such a busy service. Let's not forget the advent of 777s on the Ormskirk line has seen all that route's six car workings canned as well.

 

[Prime586]

Some 503s were transferred to the Northern line to cover for the 507s and from what I remember, the issues were quickly fixed and they were back in service in a far shorter time, however, this was before everything started to become far too technical because the more tech that is built into trains and other vehicles used for transport but for this thread specifically teains, the more problems that are going to happen.

I find it particularly perplexing as most of the electronic systems and electromechanical subassemblies that make up a 777 are supposed to have been 'off the shelf' (e.g. the sliding step and door control modules I posted about earlier in the thread, which they buy in) or already proven in Stadler's previous products. The most surprising issue to me with my background is how they managed to end up with units built in two different locations unable to work in multiplex with each other - that's basic configuration management stuff.

 

[karlbbb]

The inability to work as 8-car is certainly one of the more frustraing issues. Passing Kirkdale and looking at how many 777s are there now makes it all the more irksome. According to a post a few days back, 001-018 are now all delivered, with a few sat in various sidings around the network. I have not seen 013 (Eurovision livery) out for many weeks now although post #5257 above suggests it's now stabled at New Brighton, for example. With the units only working Ormskirk and Kirkby right now, that's only 9 needed. What are the other 9 doing?

(I know some in Kirkdale are the 777/1s, which haven't yet done fault-free running or been properly introduced, but 001-018 have nonetheless been delivered and pending FFR should be available)

 

[irish_rail]

What's needed is politicians up there to step in and stop any more 50x being sent off for scrap. Its absurd. If it means another exam on a set with low hours left then so be it. Send the bill to St*dler .

 

[Sam 76]

What's needed is politicians up there to step in and stop any more 50x being sent off for scrap. Its absurd. If it means another exam on a set with low hours left then so be it. Send the bill to St*dler .

The ORR have withdrawn the approval for the 508s from the end of the year so they have no choice. As painful as it will be it’s going to have to continue and the 777s will have to enter service.

I was also reading on the Mersey railways 2.0 channel that on Monday 12 pep units were unavailable causing the shortages and reliability is an issue on them at the moment.
In regards to other comments regarding the rollout. Not smooth but this is what happens when a fleet is now years late, pushing the time of the 507/508 units. They can’t and won’t go forever and this has stemmed from many years not just now.

Indeed it has been stated that the 777s will start on the Wirral in small numbers very soon

 

[richa2002]

What's wrong with the 508s that requires ORR approval?

 

[jamesst]

The ORR have withdrawn the approval for the 508s from the end of the year so they have no choice. As painful as it will be it’s going to have to continue and the 777s will have to enter service.

I was also reading on the Mersey railways 2.0 channel that on Monday 12 pep units were unavailable causing the shortages and reliability is an issue on them at the moment.
In regards to other comments regarding the rollout. Not smooth but this is what happens when a fleet is now years late, pushing the time of the 507/508 units. They can’t and won’t go forever and this has stemmed from many years not just now.

Indeed it has been stated that the 777s will start on the Wirral in small numbers very soon

3 are due to start passenger service on Wirral on Monday

 

[voyagerdude220]

I saw the TM try two different cards at a number of doors, and shortly after we were kicked off so have to assume it was an issue with the system the readers talk to.

Apologies if it's already been stated, but what is the method of despatch which Conductors use on the 777 fleet?

I didn't manage to see the Conductor do the doors when I went on a 777 a couple of months ago. I do remember them being stood by the rear most set of passenger doors throughout the journey from Liverpool to Kirkby, apart from when they performed a full ticket check just before we got to Kirkby. They never once returned to the back cab, which I thought was good for customer reassurance although maybe not the best for the Conductor being constantly on their feet.

 

[mcnw35282]

The guards, or Train Managers as they're now called all carry RFID cards. Once they've done their platform duty, they hold their card next to a reader which is adjacent to the doors until the reader flashes green. I guess this sends a signal to the driver that guard duties are complete and they can close the doors.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Once they've done their platform duty, they use an RFID card on a reader next to the door which flashes green. I guess this sends a signal to the driver that guard duties are complete and they can close the doors.

Ok thanks.

 

[Sam 76]

What's wrong with the 508s that requires ORR approval?

So from what I can gather it’s to do with the fact the 508s are much more heavily corroded than the 507s. Making overhauls harder or near impossible in some cases

 

[richa2002]

So from what I can gather it’s to do with the fact the 508s are much more heavily corroded than the 507s. Making overhauls harder or near impossible in some cases

Thank you

 

[irish_rail]

So from what I can gather it’s to do with the fact the 508s are much more heavily corroded than the 507s. Making overhauls harder or near impossible in some cases

So they shouldn't be withdrawing any 507s then for the time being at least.

 

[Sam 76]

So they shouldn't be withdrawing any 507s then for the time being at least.

I think purely from a fleet number view yes. But from a business perspective it makes more sense to withdraw at the ends of their exam mileage and press the 777s in to service

 

[315801]

On our way back from a drive around the wirral me and my other half stopped at New Brighton station and I can confirm that 777013 is stabled in the wall siding where 777005 was until it moved over to Kirkdale.

 

[Vespa]

How long does the train manufacturers warranties last on the 777 out of interest ? Is there even one ?

As motor cars tends to be 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first where any defects are repaired by the manufacturer, so just wondering if there is similar with trains ?

 

[Sam 76]

How long does the train manufacturers warranties last on the 777 out of interest ? Is there even one ?

As motor cars tends to be 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first where any defects are repaired by the manufacturer, so just wondering if there is similar with trains ?

I imagine it’s a bit like a bus. At the front of E400s different parts have different warranties