Northern Ticket Machines - Part 2

[Halwynd]

Just over a year ago I experienced problems with a Northern ticket machine at my local station: Gathurst. The thread can be found here:

Northern Ticket Machines

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern. My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad. I placed Debit...

www.railforums.co.uk

A member of this forum, who is employed by Northern, was kind enough to get in touch to ask for more details so that it could be resolved. After many months it was found that a cable, which attached the payment module to the main machine processor, was faulty and it was replaced. I have used the machine twice since without incident.

Early this morning, having need to travel on a longer distance journey tomorrow, and bearing in mind the reliability of railway ticket machines, I decided to walk to Gathurst station to purchase my ticket today in order to avoid any possible on-the-day problems. It was very frustrating to find the ticket machine having failed again. This time there was a red flashing LED at the top of the machine, and a screen notice to say that tickets could not be issued.

I decided to walk a further two miles to Appley Bridge station to try my luck there. There is a ticket machine on both platforms. The machine on the Southport-bound platform was not working either (flashing red LED), but the machine on the Wigan-bound platform was. I managed to get to the payment stage but Contactless would not work. I tried Chip & PIN but twice received a 'card reader error' message. I tried a third time and for some reason it then decided to work.

I really am becoming lost for words regarding the poor quality and/or reliability of Northern's 'new' ticket machines. As I said in my original post linked to above, I also worry about boarding without a ticket and possibly being issued a Penalty Fare in this increasingly hostile environment for railway passengers.

Thus, whether I am wasting my time or not, I have decided to take a stand. I have written to the RailUK Forums member referred to above - of course, thanking him for his past assistance, but asking for the matter to be raised as a formal complaint to which I have requested a formal response. Dependant upon the content of that response I am then minded to write to the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport and, if necessary, my MP.

I am posting this message for two reasons:

1. To make others aware, if they are not already, of these ongoing problems with Northern's ticket machines in case they find themselves in a similar situation and experience issues as a result.

2. If I do end up going to the Department for Transport and you have any relevent comments or experiences you might like me to mention, please add them to this thread. I certainly know that others have experienced problems at other stations on both Northern's East and West sides. The one machine at my local station had failed, and one of the two machines at the next station down the line had failed this morning. I'd like to try to gain a better understanding about how reliable these machines are, or whether I am just unlucky.

3. I have now become quite frustrated and perhaps a little angry that, after over a year of dealing with problems at my own station, passengers in my own area seemingly cannot have confidence that Northern's ticket machines will work on any given day. If anyone feels that I am approaching the complaints process in the wrong way then I'd be very grateful to read your thoughts - but, with respect, please don't tell me to use a ticket App!

 

[skyhigh]

Thus, whether I am wasting my time or not, I have decided to take a stand. I have written to the RailUK Forums member referred to above - of course, thanking him for his past assistance, but asking for the matter to be raised as a formal complaint to which I have requested a formal response.

Via a Railway enthusiast forum?

 

[Bantamzen]

Firstly whilst the member in question is indeed very helpful, you really should be addressing a formal complaint to Northern directly. As for the issue of the ticket machines not working, again this should be reported to them as soon as possible. In the past I have used their Twitter feed to quickly contact them and let them know, they are usually very helpful. Failing that I'm sure they have other contact means or you could speak to a guard.

Ticket wise you could always buy online and print out your ticket, or just buy onboard if possible. I have never encountered a situation where a guard has refused to sell a ticket when someone tells them the machine wasn't working. Personally I do use the mobile app and I have never had an issue with it, but I realise you don't wish to so the options above are your best bet.

 

[skyhigh]

Firstly whilst the member in question is indeed very helpful, you really should be addressing a formal complaint to Northern directly.

I'm hoping it's just clumsy wording and the complaint has been registered via Customer Services rather than through a PM on here as individual staff members have no way of raising a formal complaint.

You also need to remember that while the member mentioned above is responsible for managing the machines they are limited by the hardware they have and the support contact with Flowbird - neither of which were decided by them.

Looking into what the OP mentions:
Gathurst and Appley Bridge out of ticket stock (not a machine fault)
The other machine at Appley Bridge - it sounds very much like an intermittent fault and given that it is successfully taking card payments it's hard to remotely diagnose a fault as it could be user error causing read failure (i.e. not holding card close enough, long enough etc). Without reporting it the operator of any TVM is unlikely to be aware of a fault like that.

 

[scrapy]

or just buy onboard if possible. I have never encountered a situation where a guard has refused to sell a ticket when someone tells them the machine wasn't working.

Problem with buy on board is you cannot always get cheapest ticket. If you go to a ticket machine more than 10 minutes before departure on many routes you can get an advance for a few quid. Whereas an equivalent anytime single sold onboard is around three times as much. (Can be more than that for Railcard users in the morning peak) Northern will not refund the difference if the TVM isn't working, so they really need to sort the reliability issues out, because I've seen it cause confrontation for guards/ticket office staff where someone is charged £3 for a ticket one day from a TVM, the next day the TVM isn't working and the cheapest fare the guard/ticket office staff can charge them is £11.

 

[Halwynd]

Via a Railway enthusiast forum?

No, he was kind enough to provide me with his email address to where my complaint has been sent.

Firstly whilst the member in question is indeed very helpful, you really should be addressing a formal complaint to Northern directly.

I don't want to give any details away on a public forum, but I believe his position within Northern makes it appropriate to direct the complaint to him in the first instance. He is aware of the issue, I don't need to explain copiously to someone new all over again, and I don't want to 'go over his head' at this stage as I don't believe that would be fair.

Whatever the reasons, the fact remains that for over a year, my success rate using the ticket machine at my local station has been no more than 20%. Failed cables, running out of ticket stock and other excuses, it really isnt good enough.

 

[MotCO]

Presumably advances have to be bought in advance. If the ticket office is closed, or in the future, non-existent, and thd TVM is not working, then it is blatantly unfair to expect the passenger, sorry customer, buy a more expensive ticket. This presumably is not unique to Northern - surely it could happen anywhere.

If the guard cannot sell an advance, then presumably this is not an opportunity to buy the required ticket. Can they pay at the destination, but buying a ticket for a later train which they obviously will not use, but the TOC receives the correct income.

 

[Bantamzen]

Problem with buy on board is you cannot always get cheapest ticket. If you go to a ticket machine more than 10 minutes before departure on many routes you can get an advance for a few quid. Whereas an equivalent anytime single sold onboard is around three times as much. (Can be more than that for Railcard users in the morning peak) Northern will not refund the difference if the TVM isn't working, so they really need to sort the reliability issues out, because I've seen it cause confrontation for guards/ticket office staff where someone is charged £3 for a ticket one day from a TVM, the next day the TVM isn't working and the cheapest fare the guard/ticket office staff can charge them is £11.

I totally agree that the reliability of these machines needs to improve and / or all tickets should be available onboard. However there are these days other means by buying tickets online, which gives passengers the best opportunity to find the cheapest tickets and have the security of not having to worry about the TVMs not working.

I don't want to give any details away on a public forum, but I believe his position within Northern makes it appropriate to direct the complaint to him in the first instance. He is aware of the issue, I don't need to explain copiously to someone new all over again, and I don't want to 'go over his head' at this stage as I don't believe that would be fair.

Nonetheless, its still probably better to go via the official route. If I were him, I wouldn't want my personal email account clogging up with complaints from members of the forums (assuming he had alerts on for DMs).

Whatever the reasons, the fact remains that for over a year, my success rate using the ticket machine at my local station has been no more than 20%. Failed cables, running out of ticket stock and other excuses, it really isnt good enough.

I can't say I've had similar failure rates, generally speaking when I've used them they have worked ok at both staffed and unstaffed stations. But honestly these days I just use the app, not only do you get a e-ticket on the device you get a back-up email copy. I don't want to get into another thread about how some people don't want to or can't use them, but honestly it is really so very easy if you have a smartphone. And judging by the number of 'beeps' I hear on Northern services as the guards scan the QR codes, I'd say most people are becoming comfortable with e-tickets.

 

[Halwynd]

Nonetheless, its still probably better to go via the official route. If I were him, I wouldn't want my personal email account clogging up with complaints from members of the forums (assuming he had alerts on for DMs).

Apologies, perhaps I needed to be clearer. He kindly provided me with his business email address at Northern.

I wouldn't even consider sending such an email to someone's personal address!

I'm really trying to find out how widespread the problems are. For example, there's currently a few ticket machine failures listed on Journeycheck, but none of them are Gathurst or Appley Bridge where I have witnessed first hand failures this morning. If ticket machines are to be provided - and they will become even more relevant if/when booking offices are closed - then they need to be reliable. Whilst I'm grateful for your comments about Apps etc., merely accepting something doesn't work so best to try something different is not the ideal solution. The problem needs to be addressed.

 

[Bantamzen]

Apologies, perhaps I needed to be clearer. He kindly provided me with his business email address at Northern.

I wouldn't even considered sending such an email to someone's personal address!

Ah ok. I would just clarify that I wasn't inferring that you or anyone else were getting their personal email address, just that the forum has the option of email notifications when a DM is received.

 

[Halwynd]

Ah ok. I would just clarify that I wasn't inferring that you or anyone else were getting their personal email address, just that the forum has the option of email notifications when a DM is received.

No problem at all, I understand. Re-reading my original post I see that I should have been clearer about the email address so that is entirely my fault. Apologies again.

 

[skyhigh]

No, he was kind enough to provide me with his email address to where my complaint has been sent.

Just to be clear, you can raise an issue via email but you can't raise a formal complaint without going through Customer Services. The person who you have emailed will do his best to help on essentially an informal basis because he cares about his work, but formal complaints have to be logged so follow up and responses can be recorded for future reference. It is unfair to demand a written response on a one-to-one basis that you will take to your MP or DfT without following the proper proceedure.

Simply put if you put pressure on people trying to help it will just result in them no longer going above and beyond to help (such as coming on here in their spare time or giving out contact info to try and sort an issue) and just direct you to CS instead for everything.

I'm not saying that the TVMs or system is perfect, far from it. But taking up a crusade involving someone who is simply doing their job to the best of their abilities isn't the way to do it.

 

[Halwynd]

Just to be clear, you can raise an issue via email but you can't raise a formal complaint without going through Customer Services. The person who you have emailed will do his best to help on essentially an informal basis because he cares about his work, but formal complaints have to be logged so follow up and responses can be recorded for future reference. It is unfair to demand a written response on a one-to-one basis that you will take to your MP or DfT without following the proper proceedure.

Simply put if you put pressure on people trying to help it will just result in them no longer going above and beyond to help (such as coming on here in their spare time or giving out contact info to try and sort an issue) and just direct you to CS instead for everything.

I'm not saying that the TVMs or system is perfect, far from it. But taking up a crusade involving someone who is simply doing their job to the best of their abilities isn't the way to do it.

Just for the record, I agree that the person to which we refer goes over and beyond to help. If you look at my posts previously relating to this, you'll see that I have gone out of my way to thank him and offer praise generally. I have done so by email too, and I think he would confirm that I have been very polite, courteous and thankful to him in all my communications.

I do not hold him personally responsible in any way for this state of affairs, and in my email to him this morning I said as much. His advice and help is greatly appreciated.

However, this morning I was particularly frustrated that, after over a year of problems with Northern's ticket machine at Gathurst, yet again it was not working. A five mile walk ensued and I was rather miffed when I arrived home. Northern are very ready to threaten passengers with Penalty Fares - there is a need to do that, I understand - but before doing so they really need to get their own house in order and make sure passengers can actually buy a ticket from their TVMs.

You make some fair points which I have taken onboard - thank you. Crusade is not the right word though - my experience is that Northern's TVMs are unreliable and thus not fit for purpose, and sometimes, after, as I say, over a year of problems you do wonder whether anything will be done without matters being escalated. Even then, perhaps nothing will ever be done and passengers are just going to have to put up with it - I said in my first post that I might be wasting my time. Perhaps even it might be some conspiracy to get passengers to buy e-tickets .

You also make a fair point about putting pressure on someone, and I do understand that a comment about taking it to the DfT might well do that. Accordingly, and considering the comments in this thread, I have sent a further email to the person to whom we refer (at his business email address!!) to inform him that I no longer wish to pursue the matter and to again thank him for his previous help.

Life is too short - I have a car so in the grand scheme of things I don't need to use the railway and it really doesn't and shouldn't have mattered so much to me.

Thank you again for everyone's comments and for helping me see this in perhaps a better perspective.

 

[thejuggler]

Any machine which relies on tech will break down.

I would expect any complaint to point heavily towards using the Northen app for ticket purchases.

 

[800001]

Just over a year ago I experienced problems with a Northern ticket machine at my local station: Gathurst. The thread can be found here:

Northern Ticket Machines

For the first time in over two years, this morning I set out to make a journey using Northern. My local unstaffed station now has one of the 'new' large glass plate ticket machines, so I selected my ticket and the price was displayed on the screen and on the Chip & PIN keypad. I placed Debit...

www.railforums.co.uk

A member of this forum, who is employed by Northern, was kind enough to get in touch to ask for more details so that it could be resolved. After many months it was found that a cable, which attached the payment module to the main machine processor, was faulty and it was replaced. I have used the machine twice since without incident.

Early this morning, having need to travel on a longer distance journey tomorrow, and bearing in mind the reliability of railway ticket machines, I decided to walk to Gathurst station to purchase my ticket today in order to avoid any possible on-the-day problems. It was very frustrating to find the ticket machine having failed again. This time there was a red flashing LED at the top of the machine, and a screen notice to say that tickets could not be issued.

I decided to walk a further two miles to Appley Bridge station to try my luck there. There is a ticket machine on both platforms. The machine on the Southport-bound platform was not working either (flashing red LED), but the machine on the Wigan-bound platform was. I managed to get to the payment stage but Contactless would not work. I tried Chip & PIN but twice received a 'card reader error' message. I tried a third time and for some reason it then decided to work.

I really am becoming lost for words regarding the poor quality and/or reliability of Northern's 'new' ticket machines. As I said in my original post linked to above, I also worry about boarding without a ticket and possibly being issued a Penalty Fare in this increasingly hostile environment for railway passengers.

Thus, whether I am wasting my time or not, I have decided to take a stand. I have written to the RailUK Forums member referred to above - of course, thanking him for his past assistance, but asking for the matter to be raised as a formal complaint to which I have requested a formal response. Dependant upon the content of that response I am then minded to write to the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport and, if necessary, my MP.

I am posting this message for two reasons:

1. To make others aware, if they are not already, of these ongoing problems with Northern's ticket machines in case they find themselves in a similar situation and experience issues as a result.

2. If I do end up going to the Department for Transport and you have any relevent comments or experiences you might like me to mention, please add them to this thread. I certainly know that others have experienced problems at other stations on both Northern's East and West sides. The one machine at my local station had failed, and one of the two machines at the next station down the line had failed this morning. I'd like to try to gain a better understanding about how reliable these machines are, or whether I am just unlucky.

3. I have now become quite frustrated and perhaps a little angry that, after over a year of dealing with problems at my own station, passengers in my own area seemingly cannot have confidence that Northern's ticket machines will work on any given day. If anyone feels that I am approaching the complaints process in the wrong way then I'd be very grateful to read your thoughts - but, with respect, please don't tell me to use a ticket App!

Surely if the machine is out of action on the day you decide to travel, take a picture of the machine out of action, and buy on board?

 

[MotCO]

Surely if the machine is out of action on the day you decide to travel, take a picture of the machine out of action, and buy on board?

See post #5. Buying on board could cost more - is that fair?

 

[yorkie]

Via a Railway enthusiast forum?

This forum - whatever you want to refer to it as - is widely used in the industry and is often the best place to get matters escalated, yes.

 

[kkong]

As for the issue of the ticket machines not working, again this should be reported to them as soon as possible.

There have been a number of reported cases on the Disputes & Prosecutions forum where TOCs have claimed that their "records" indicate that a particular TVM was working when the passenger claimed it wasn't.

I am sceptical that remote monitoring of TVMs can detect the majority of failure modes of TVMs, but on the face of it, TOCs seem to be saying they can do this.

Last week, I tried three different ScotRail TVMs at Aberdeen station to collect a pre-booked ticket and all three TVMs froze for about 2 minutes after I entered the collection reference (with no indication to state what was/was not happening), before eventually timing out, stating they couldn't connect to a database and to ask at the ticket office for assistance (which wasn't open at the time).

After the time-out each TVM returned to the home screen ready for the next prospective customer, with no indication that they couldn't currently be used to collect pre-booked tickets.

I wonder if these TVMs were reporting their faults to ScotRail?

 

[childwallblues]

I often collect tickets from Liverpool South Parkway Station which is a Merseyrail operated station. The ticket machine there is belongs to Northern Rail. There have been odd occasions when the machine has been out of order which is usually that the tickets have run out. I understand that it is the responsibility of Northern staff at West Allerton Station to deal with any problems. Customers can still buy tickets at the booking office which is open from first to last train (it is not closing) and the staff will print your advance tickets for you.

 

[MetroPleb]

Just to add my experience - from the last four times I've tried to use the Northern machine at Patricroft - three times it was not working,

Luckily there is always a message on the screen which tells you what to do in these circumstances, which is, roughly:

"Use one of the other machines, or speak to a member of staff at the station".

Patricroft has one ticket machine, and is unstaffed.

Just feels like another of the "death-by-a-thousand-cuts" that the railway is going through at the moment.

 

[ianBR]

The user-friendly solution would be for machines to print out a ticket when they have any fault saying "Machine faulty - please show to guard onboard train" or something along those lines.

Instead customers are expected to deal with intermittent faults and then find themselves and risk of fines/prosecution when the train companies have no record of the fault at their end. Your average customer is not going to know they are expected to have a phone camera ready to capture whatever error message might flash up quickly (if at all) as their only defence against an awkward RPI later during their journey.

 

[Starmill]

A five mile walk ensued and I was rather miffed when I arrived home. Northern are very ready to threaten passengers with Penalty Fares - there is a need to do that, I understand - but before doing so they really need to get their own house in order and make sure passengers can actually buy a ticket from their TVMs.

While this is all true, wouldn't it have been much less effort for you to just get on the train and explain the situation? I know that's not ideal, but if Northern did charge you a Penalty Fare, which is, as you hint, fairly likely, you could win the appeal with less time and effort than five miles walk and however many hours you've spent going to two stations, writing a long email to northernman and also creating and replying to this thread.

 

[Snow1964]

The recently announced Northern Business Commitments 2023-2024 (which is in another thread) has 13 new TVMs in section A5 (2)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1173693/dolr-holdings-northern-trains-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

 

[TUC]

Problem with buy on board is you cannot always get cheapest ticket. If you go to a ticket machine more than 10 minutes before departure on many routes you can get an advance for a few quid. Whereas an equivalent anytime single sold onboard is around three times as much. (Can be more than that for Railcard users in the morning peak) Northern will not refund the difference if the TVM isn't working, so they really need to sort the reliability issues out, because I've seen it cause confrontation for guards/ticket office staff where someone is charged £3 for a ticket one day from a TVM, the next day the TVM isn't working and the cheapest fare the guard/ticket office staff can charge them is £11.

Buying a ticket on your phone is surely the best solution to that?

 

[Snow1964]

Buying a ticket on your phone is surely the best solution to that?

I think Northern serve a number of stations where the phone signal is weak, and anyway since when is having a phone with you a requirement of getting a cheap ticket

 

[Bantamzen]

I think Northern serve a number of stations where the phone signal is weak,

You don't have to buy at the station, you can do so from the comfort of your own home, or anywhere that has a reasonable signal and/or secure WiFi.

and anyway since when is having a phone with you a requirement of getting a cheap ticket

Its not, you can also do it via the website.

 

[TUC]

I think Northern serve a number of stations where the phone signal is weak, and anyway since when is having a phone with you a requirement of getting a cheap ticket

I simply mean that it is far easier to do that than wandering from station to station. Besides which, what is the point of a mobile phone unless you carry it with you?

 

[northernman]

Hi all, to be clear, I am the responsible manager for TVMs at Northern, and user GB47711 contacted me and that is fine. The important thing for me here is that the TVM works, our customers expect it, and so do I. I am currently investigating the machines in question, and will happily provide an update when I have all of the information.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all, to be clear, I am the responsible manager for TVMs at Northern, and user GB47711 contacted me and that is fine. The important thing for me here is that the TVM works, our customers expect it, and so do I. I am currently investigating the machines in question, and will happily provide an update when I have all of the information.

That's great, much appreciated

 

[thejuggler]

Lets see how this pans out:

Yorkshire journalist accused of train fare evasion by Northern in row over broken ticket machine

A Northern passenger accused of evading paying his train fare was almost arrested after he swore at the rail company’s lawyer during a court hearing.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Not sure the line about the machine working normally when he boarded the train is such a slam dunk. Surely it has to be working at the time an attempt was made to buy a ticket, or should passengers wait by the machine until the train approaches just in case it starts working again?