ULEZ - Plans (and would you have to pay?)

[The Ham]

Of course, if politicians really care about air quality they wouldn’t have spent years pursuing policies which have increased the size of the population in Britain, and London in particular. Khan is as guilty as any on this, but then he’s always come across as a destructive politician.

A significant amount of the increase in population between 1991 and 2016 (an increase of 8 million) was down to the number of people aged over 65 increasing from about 9 million to 12 million (about +2.8 million).

Assuming an average age of 87, those over 65 would make up 25% of the population, yet over that timeframe have accounted for just over 33% of the growth in population.

This is important to understand for two reason, firstly those over 65 aren't typically in the workforce and so to keep the working population the same size there's a need for some additional people to come here (although arguably with a larger, especially older and larger, you'll need a larger working population that you would have before) to fill the jobs which need doing.

The second point is that an aging population requires more taxes to pay for their support (pension, bus pass, social care, etc.). If you don't have the same size working population, then they would mean more taxes from those who are still working.

It's very convenient for people in power to stoke animosity between groups as then the anger isn't focused on them. For example, if a person is fearful that someone will take their job they're not going to be willing to ask for a pay rise, which allows larger profits and more money to be given to the shareholders.

Whilst the two sides in the link below argue different things (one adjusted one not) the fact that Tesco is still making the same profit (even though their costs have risen, COVID, and the like) when many are seeing their pay fall in real terms should give an example of how not everyone is being impacted by the cost of living equally:

TikTok - Make Your Day

(Link to select committee where the boss of Tesco is being asked about their profits)

 

[renegademaster]

A significant amount of the increase in population between 1991 and 2016 (an increase of 8 million) was down to the number of people aged over 65 increasing from about 9 million to 12 million (about +2.8 million).

Assuming an average age of 87, those over 65 would make up 25% of the population, yet over that timeframe have accounted for just over 33% of the growth in population.

This is important to understand for two reason, firstly those over 65 aren't typically in the workforce and so to keep the working population the same size there's a need for some additional people to come here (although arguably with a larger, especially older and larger, you'll need a larger working population that you would have before) to fill the jobs which need doing.

The second point is that an aging population requires more taxes to pay for their support (pension, bus pass, social care, etc.). If you don't have the same size working population, then they would mean more taxes from those who are still working.

It's very convenient for people in power to stoke animosity between groups as then the anger isn't focused on them. For example, if a person is fearful that someone will take their job they're not going to be willing to ask for a pay rise, which allows larger profits and more money to be given to the shareholders.

Whilst the two sides in the link below argue different things (one adjusted one not) the fact that Tesco is still making the same profit (even though their costs have risen, COVID, and the like) when many are seeing their pay fall in real terms should give an example of how not everyone is being impacted by the cost of living equally:

TikTok - Make Your Day

(Link to select committee where the boss of Tesco is being asked about their profits)

Making the same profit while the pound has devalued means their profits are falling in real trerms

 

[alex397]

Did we get all this over-dramatic fuss when the London congestion charge was brought in? I was a child then so it’s not something I remember.

I doubt we would want to get rid of the congestion charge now, and I doubt the majority of Londoners would. The ULEZ just seems like an extension to that.

I find it funny that my family, who are incidentally Daily Mail readers, are kicking off about this. All their cars would be ULEZ compliant and they don’t even live in London.

 

[bramling]

Did we get all this over-dramatic fuss when the London congestion charge was brought in? I was a child then so it’s not something I remember.

I doubt we would want to get rid of the congestion charge now, and I doubt the majority of Londoners would. The ULEZ just seems like an extension to that.

I find it funny that my family, who are incidentally Daily Mail readers, are kicking off about this. All their cars would be ULEZ compliant and they don’t even live in London.

Notwithstanding the slight effect it has on me in that one of my cars is affected, I would still object on principle.

I regard it as democratically deficient that someone like Khan can introduce something which affects people (non-London residents) who have no electoral recourse at all.

I wish we could retaliate by having a mechanism to stop Londoners coming to the Home Counties at weekends at swamping “our” green spaces, depositing rubbish and causing pollution / congestion whilst travelling there. Am I being serious? Well maybe.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I regard it as democratically deficient that someone like Khan can introduce something which affects people (non-London residents) who have no electoral recourse at all.

So you oppose all forms of local government then? Given councils, mayors, etc etc all enact legislation that affects those who enter the area governed by that body regardless of if they are resident there or not? Hell why not take that insane view in the obvious direction and suggest that it is "democratically deficient" that someone like the British PM can introduce something that affects people (non British citizens) who have no electoral recourse at all.

Or perhaps you are just trying to justify the fact you don't like him and the ULEZ.

 

[deltic]

Of course, if politicians really care about air quality they wouldn’t have spent years pursuing policies which have increased the size of the population in Britain, and London in particular. Khan is as guilty as any on this, but then he’s always come across as a destructive politician.

I'm interested to know what influence Sadiq Khan has had over the birth rate or immigration levels!

 

[Busaholic]

Did we get all this over-dramatic fuss when the London congestion charge was brought in? I was a child then so it’s not something I remember.

If you resided in the Congestion Charge area you were allowed a massive discount on using your car or van in it, so that made a difference.

 

[Mabs]

Car dealers won't accept your old EV as part exchange. Risk of taking an out of order battery. You'll be stuck with it.

 

[Dai Corner]

Car dealers won't accept your old EV as part exchange. Risk of taking an out of order battery. You'll be stuck with it.

I just did a search on Autotrader and found about 12000 used EVs for sale through the trade.

Surely the vast majority of them were taken in part exchange?

 

[Mabs]

I just did a search on Autotrader and found about 12000 used EVs for sale through the trade.

Surely the vast majority of them were taken in part exchange?

Probably at a huge loss to the owner. Find this information if you can.

 

[thejuggler]

So you oppose all forms of local government then? Given councils, mayors, etc etc all enact legislation that affects those who enter the area governed by that body regardless of if they are resident there or not? Hell why not take that insane view in the obvious direction and suggest that it is "democratically deficient" that someone like the British PM can introduce something that affects people (non British citizens) who have no electoral recourse at all.

Or perhaps you are just trying to justify the fact you don't like him and the ULEZ.

It is also the case that introduction of ULEZ and Clean Air Zones in cities such as Bristol, Sheffield, Bradford aren't from decisions made locally.

They are usually due to the local Council's being given a Ministerial Direction which is a central government instruction to do something about a major issue in their area. In this case its air pollution breaching acceptable levels.

This is not really understood by reside ts as they believe the local Council controls everything, in reality they don't.

 

[SeanG]

I support the idea of an ULEZ. However my car does about 15 or less mph round town and yet is exempt from payment. Surely this isn't environmentally friendly...

 

[Horizon22]

Notwithstanding the slight effect it has on me in that one of my cars is affected, I would still object on principle.

I regard it as democratically deficient that someone like Khan can introduce something which affects people (non-London residents) who have no electoral recourse at all.

I wish we could retaliate by having a mechanism to stop Londoners coming to the Home Counties at weekends at swamping “our” green spaces, depositing rubbish and causing pollution / congestion whilst travelling there. Am I being serious? Well maybe.

This sort of thing happens all the time in the reverse though. For example people living in Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and Essex have definitely benefited from the Elizabeth line connectivity, but didn't have any "electoral recourse" about it.

As for "swamping", well I'm sure the extra revenue given to London and TfL is most welcome. Public spaces are for all and getting overly territorial about it is a very negative outlook. There will be a boundary somewhere.

 

[DustyBin]

I find it funny that my family, who are incidentally Daily Mail readers, are kicking off about this. All their cars would be ULEZ compliant and they don’t even live in London.

The London ULEZ is unlikely to effect me either, but the whole thing has mission creep, slippery slope etc. written all over it in my opinion.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

My car is a bus/train. Londoners have no right to moan about this when they have a world class public transport system. Try being a bus user in rural Norfolk with one bus an hour between 07:30 and 18:30. Of course I think there should be exceptions for trades people and people who driving is essential to their business. But there are so many journeys that can easily be done by public transport that people will just hop in the car for purely because it is slightly easier for them. Londoners have it lucky.

 

[bramling]

My car is a bus/train. Londoners have no right to moan about this when they have a world class public transport system. Try being a bus user in rural Norfolk with one bus an hour between 07:30 and 18:30. Of course I think there should be exceptions for trades people and people who driving is essential to their business. But there are so many journeys that can easily be done by public transport that people will just hop in the car for purely because it is slightly easier for them. Londoners have it lucky.

World class is a matter for debate. I write this as I was delayed for 40 minutes travelling into London on the Northern Line two days running this week - once because of a newspaper on fire trackside, and once because the rear cab door of a train had blown open.

However I do agree with the general point that there are a lot of car journeys in the London suburbs which arise from little other than laziness.

 

[jon0844]

Car dealers won't accept your old EV as part exchange. Risk of taking an out of order battery. You'll be stuck with it.

There is a big market in second hand EVs and some great options. Bar early Nissan Leafs most cars still have batteries performing way above expectations.

Methinks you've been taken in by the oil lobby trying to cling on to a source of revenue, but remember how people were told to buy diesel and are now stuffed? Give it another 10-15 years and there will either be a charge or a ban on ICE vehicles in many cities.

I guess we'll have a thread on that in the future and people will look at the similarities.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My car is a bus/train. Londoners have no right to moan about this when they have a world class public transport system. Try being a bus user in rural Norfolk with one bus an hour between 07:30 and 18:30. Of course I think there should be exceptions for trades people and people who driving is essential to their business. But there are so many journeys that can easily be done by public transport that people will just hop in the car for purely because it is slightly easier for them. Londoners have it lucky.

It gets difficult for people who live outside London where there may be little/no public transport. Some of these people like care workers or maintenance engineers then use their car to get between different locations within London. Many of them live in areas cheaper than London and so are not well connected.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

It gets difficult for people who live outside London where there may be little/no public transport. Some of these people like care workers or maintenance engineers then use their car to get between different locations within London. Many of them live in areas cheaper than London and so are not well connected.

This is why london needs more Parkway stations to work as a park and ride system for outsiders driving from less connected places. Norwich has a very good system but I don't feel it is used to it's full potential. While Norwich and Norfolk has a Mediocre to poor local bus network Norwich does have a decent Park and ride system operated jointly between Konectbus(A Go Ahead subsidiary) and Norfolk County Council. There are 6 sites covering most of the main routes into Norwich with 5 of these having direct buses to the city. The one problem I find with these is that all but one of these park and rides stop operating early with all but one (Thickthorn) having their last buses leave the city by 19:00 and all but one (again Thickthorn) having no Sunday service. London needs to do this but on a much larger scale. All trunk routes into the city need large dedicated parkway stations.

 

[Wolfie]

My car is old but compliant. I'm still against the ULEZ charge. Soon they'll change the rules. Kick Khan and his policies out.

You are, l assume, aware that the air quality in London is awful and that HMG has lost just about every legal case it has faced over pollution. In some places annual pollution levels were exceeded in January. A case a few years ago decided that a young girl's death was directly caused by pollution. Doing nothing is not an option and will lead to a shedload more litigation.

Oh, l live in inner London, l have a compliant car, and l absolutely support Mayor Khan in implementing plans originally put in place by his predecessor.... Remember him? Bushy blond hair....

I can assure you that Mayor Khan is highly likely to be re-elected too.

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For heaven’s sake for the umpteenth time LEZ/ULEZ are about air quality, not CO2.

I and the quiet majority fully support them. You are in a very small (vocal) minority.

Agreed. Much of said minority is scientifically illiterate too.

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Has anyone asked what people who actually live in the areas that ULEZ operates in what they think of it now it's in place?

I do and l think that it is wholly beneficial.

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There is no pollution problem in Hillingdon and that's why I fully support my council for fighting the ULEZ Campaign in court. I am willing to pay more in council tax to support my council.

That will be the Hillingdon Council who had reviews (look at their websites) undertaken that suggested that limits were exceeded particularly around Heathrow Airport.....

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Why are you talking about inside a tunnel. Obviously there will be smoke. Why not minitor the air outside on a London street. You really are desperate.

When l see utter garbage like that l wonder if it is worth bothering....

New highly localised data shows every borough in London exceeds World Health Organization limits for toxic pollution

New analysis of diffusion tubes at locations across the city, which has been compiled by City Hall has, today revealed that whilst some progress has been made improving air quality in the capital, every London borough is breaching World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines for nitrogen dioxide.

www.london.gov.uk

The headline message:

• Air quality monitoring data from diffusion tubes shows that air pollution in all London boroughs exceeds WHO guidelines for deadly nitrogen dioxide

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Again the use of the word tragic. What is so tragic?

I suggest that you listen to the late Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah's mother to find the answer to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

I support the idea of an ULEZ. However my car does about 15 or less mph round town and yet is exempt from payment. Surely this isn't environmentally friendly...

MPH or MPG? The context suggests the latter.

 

[GusB]

I regard it as democratically deficient that someone like Khan can introduce something which affects people (non-London residents) who have no electoral recourse at all.

This is a silly argument. If you were to take your car to another country that had stricter rules concerning polluting vehicles, you would have no right to any electoral recourse, and rightfully so. Why should it be any different when a local authority that doesn't cover the area where you live decides that it doesn't want polluting vehicles within its boundaries?

 

[bramling]

This is a silly argument. If you were to take your car to another country that had stricter rules concerning polluting vehicles, you would have no right to any electoral recourse, and rightfully so. Why should it be any different when a local authority that doesn't cover the area where you live decides that it doesn't want polluting vehicles within its boundaries?

But we aren’t talking about another country, so it’s massively different. For one it’s a capital city where a significant number of people from the wider south-east work, as well as having other business. I wouldn’t expect electoral recourse in another country, but I certainly expect it in my capital city.

It wasn’t that long ago that London was talking about a boundary charge for outsiders. If that isn’t parochial then I don’t know what is. Given there is now a big difficulty in getting quality recruits for certain roles in London, discouraging people from the wider south-east isn’t a particularly clever policy, but Khan doesn’t seem to care about this as it’s clear he is driving a wedge. Perhaps his efforts might be better directed at sorting out issues like crime in London?

And, let’s face it, the whole London Mayor was created by Blair in the expectation of it being a shoe-in for Labour, in the same way as this was the expectation for Scotland and Wales. We saw with the fragmented Covid response how this political opportunism has caused significant problems.

 

[The Ham]

But we aren’t talking about another country, so it’s massively different. For one it’s a capital city where a significant number of people from the wider south-east work, as well as having other business. I wouldn’t expect electoral recourse in another country, but I certainly expect it in my capital city.

It wasn’t that long ago that London was talking about a boundary charge for outsiders. If that isn’t parochial then I don’t know what is. Given there is now a big difficulty in getting quality recruits for certain roles in London, discouraging people from the wider south-east isn’t a particularly clever policy, but Khan doesn’t seem to care about this as it’s clear he is driving a wedge. Perhaps his efforts might be better directed at sorting out issues like crime in London?

And, let’s face it, the whole London Mayor was created by Blair in the expectation of it being a shoe-in for Labour, in the same way as this was the expectation for Scotland and Wales. We saw with the fragmented Covid response how this political opportunism has caused significant problems.

How's it different to living in one District Council and the neighbouring one putting up their parking charges?

Does that mean that they can't because it'll impact you (and others who don't live in their district) as you don't have a political say?

 

[AM9]

But we aren’t talking about another country, so it’s massively different. For one it’s a capital city where a significant number of people from the wider south-east work, as well as having other business. I wouldn’t expect electoral recourse in another country, but I certainly expect it in my capital city.

It wasn’t that long ago that London was talking about a boundary charge for outsiders. If that isn’t parochial then I don’t know what is. Given there is now a big difficulty in getting quality recruits for certain roles in London, discouraging people from the wider south-east isn’t a particularly clever policy, but Khan doesn’t seem to care about this as it’s clear he is driving a wedge. Perhaps his efforts might be better directed at sorting out issues like crime in London?

And, let’s face it, the whole London Mayor was created by Blair in the expectation of it being a shoe-in for Labour, in the same way as this was the expectation for Scotland and Wales. We saw with the fragmented Covid response how this political opportunism has caused significant problems.

In my view, it seems that this opinion is driven by a visceral dislike of Sadiq Khan, as the mayor of the largest non-national authority in the UK. That role comes with significant responsibilities and legal obligations for the almost 9m GLA population. The London hinterland authorities (effectively what is left of the 'Home Counties'), have their own second and third tier authorities, and ultimately the UK government to legislate as appropriate. The concession to use gross polluting vehicles will ultimately apply on all UK roads, certainly when their local authorities start losing legal challenges there.
It's interesting that Sunak has decided to weaponise the ire of a minority of motorists to take on Labour at the London mayoral elections next year, this time on street calming, (despite the court ruling that ULEZ extension is perfectly legal). Indeed, taking the matter to court was very helpful.

 

[bramling]

In my view, or seems that this opinion is driven by a visceral dislike of Sadiq Khan, as the mayor of the largest non-national authority in the UK.

Yes, you’re absolutely right that I can’t stand him, though that view is pragmatic not visceral. He’s divisive, parochial, hateful, has displayed concerning authoritarian traits, and is pretty ineffective too. For balance, my views of the previous two mayors are pretty similar.

That role comes with significant responsibilities and legal obligations for the almost 9m GLA population. The London hinterland (effectively what is left of the 'Home Counties'), have their own second and third tier authorities,

Where’s my mayor, then? (Not that I want one).

The concession to use gross polluting vehicles will ultimately apply on all UK roads, certainly when their local authorities start losing legal challenges there.

If it’s something the UK government chose to implement then I’d feel less uncomfortable with it, for the simple reason that it would be subject to a proper level of scrutiny, both in terms of the legislature, and at the ballot box.

As a more general point, my expectation is for politicians to behave in the interests of the entire population, including those who didn’t vote for them. Khan’s behaviour seems frequently at odds with this, not that the current government is any better which is one of the many reasons I dislike them too.

It's interesting that Sunak has decided to weaponise the ire of a minority of motorists to take on Labour at the London mayoral elections next year

It will be interesting to see if that has any effect. Personally I’d prefer it if both he and Khan focussed on London’s growing crime problem, both low-level and violent crime which is now a significant blight on London, and one which no one seems to be even trying to tackle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

How's it different to living in one District Council and the neighbouring one putting up their parking charges?

Big difference, in that parking is to a large extent a take-it-or-leave-it thing, in that there are generally alternative options including normally plenty of privately owned parking options. Whereas the ability to drive along a road without incurring a significant charge is pretty fundamental.

Does that mean that they can't because it'll impact you (and others who don't live in their district) as you don't have a political say?

To be honest, no that isn’t ideal, though it is one of those unfortunate facts of life.

 

[Bald Rick]

Car dealers won't accept your old EV as part exchange. Risk of taking an out of order battery. You'll be stuck with it.

Stop making things up, as it is frankly making you look quite silly. Car dealers accept EVs as part exchange routinely.

Probably at a huge loss to the owner. Find this information if you can.

Funnily enough one of my friends sold his EV back to the dealer he bought it from last year. He got more from the dealer than he paid for it originally.

 

[Noddy]

Big difference, in that parking is to a large extent a take-it-or-leave-it thing, in that there are generally alternative options including normally plenty of privately owned parking options. Whereas the ability to drive along a road without incurring a significant charge is pretty fundamental.

But there are various alternative options. You can walk, cycle, use public transport (which may or may not be subsided by a neighbouring authority which you are not eligible to vote in), use a less polluting vehicle (which the vast majority already have) or make alternative arrangements so you don’t have to make that journey.

 

[Haru]

We live in centre of bristol had a non compliant 2015 diesel, saw the signs coming with ULEZ and other cities adopting CAZ. In 2020 we PCP’d a new ID3 so we won’t have to pay any charge, now we’re about to get rid of it because we realise we don’t need a daily and can commute by bike.

I realise we are fortunate that we could afford the deposit for a new car, have a commute and no health conditions so we can commute by bike. I do think that everyone can change their lifestyle a bit to improve air quality, for example people could walk down the road to their local corner shop instead of their car.

The upshot of commuting by bike and e bike is that I have spared enough money the OH has given the go ahead for a new 911, a car which will probably be only used for European road trips.

 

[jon0844]

Stop making things up, as it is frankly making you look quite silly. Car dealers accept EVs as part exchange routinely.

I can't work out if Mabs (and others who spread the same lies and scare stories) is involved with the oil industry and actively working to undermine EVs, or has merely been taken in and made to believe in supporting big oil - to ensure they can continue to rake in billions of pounds in profit.

The former means he stands to make money, while the latter just makes him a mark.

 

[AM9]

I can't work out if Mabs (and others who spread the same lies and scare stories) is involved with the oil industry and actively working to undermine EVs, or has merely been taken in and made to believe in supporting big oil - to ensure they can continue to rake in billions of pounds in profit.

The former means he stands to make money, while the latter just makes him a mark.

But @Mabs posts are so hyperbolic and just plain wrong that if it is a move to delay/stop the progressive removal of EVs from UK roads, it will at best make no difference at all. Anybody actually faced with replacing a polluting IC vehicle will realise the that this tirade is so far removed from any authoritative discourse on EVs that it can be assumed as irrelevant and actually improves the case for EVs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2023 ==

Yes, you’re absolutely right that I can’t stand him, though that view is pragmatic not visceral. He’s divisive, parochial, hateful, has displayed concerning authoritarian traits, and is pretty ineffective too. For balance, my views of the previous two mayors are pretty similar.

Fair enough, I might even agree with you on the previous mayor and have mixed views of Livingstone.

Where’s my mayor, then? (Not that I want one).

If you say in which local authority you reside, we can tell you which Mayor/Head of council you have, - alternatively, you could look it up although I'm sure that you already know. As for roads, if I'm right and you live in herts, your Lead councillor is Richard Roberts.

As a more general point, my expectation is for politicians to behave in the interests of the entire population, including those who didn’t vote for them. Khan’s behaviour seems frequently at odds with this, not that the current government is any better which is one of the many reasons I dislike them too.

Well he was (and probably still is) a Human Rights Lawyer, so maybe that irks you.

It will be interesting to see if that has any effect. Personally I’d prefer it if both he and Khan focussed on London’s growing crime problem, both low-level and violent crime which is now a significant blight on London, and one which no one seems to be even trying to tackle.

The London Mayor has the problem of fixing a major health issue that is the intention of ULEZ, (see othersin this thread quoting the actual nature of the pollution in official figures). Crime is another of his responsibilities, and I'm sure gets plenty of his attention.