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ULEZ Expansion (and being forced into changing cars).

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bramling

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Income is certainly part of it, but the priority is improving air quality. The majority of money will be made by car dealers, not TfL nor the Government.

I find it hard to listen to politicians promoting the idea of improving air quality when simultaneously they are advocating the construction of massive amounts of urban housing to cater for population growth.

I simply don’t believe Khan is serious about improving air quality. It’s also notable that London’s large bus fleet is hardly good from a pollution point of view, something which is within Khan’s direct control. Indeed as someone who has cycled in London on occasions I find emissions from buses to be amongst the most invasive.
 
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geoffk

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it's clear that the anti campaign has (yet again) been more effective than the pro campaign
A reminder of the Brexit campaign. It's important then that supporters of ULEZ (and the different but related LTN) keep reminding us of the benefits of cleaner air, better public health, improved road safety and a reduction in through traffic, as appropriate.
 

AM9

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They are more than happy for you to pollute. You just have to pay for the privilege.
There are two ways to reduce the number of heavy polluting vehicles from London's streets, a) encourage drivers to change by a cost incentive or b) simply ban them from the streets. Which do you think is the fairest?
 

ComUtoR

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There are two ways to reduce the number of heavy polluting vehicles from London's streets,

So this is purely for London's air quality ? Nothing to do with reducing emissions from all vehicles, reducing particulates across the entire country, and nothing to do with climate change targets ?

a) encourage drivers to change by a cost incentive or

This isn't an incentive. It's punitive.

b) simply ban them from the streets. Which do you think is the fairest?

Which is more honest ? Allowing people to pay to pollute and gaining income from it or actually doing something about the issue ?

Don't worry, we can pollute and screw the planet for the next 50 years or so. Not my generation and not my problem, certainly not my parties term either.
 

jon0844

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Banning certain vehicles entirely would seem like the most environmentally solution rather than just charging them a daily fee, but politically I can't see how that could ever work. The Tories have lurched far to the right and are now getting more and more pressure from the oil companies who are in turn funding lots of influencers to preach about the benefits of oil and gas, and speak negatively about EVs, so their original plans to go green seem to be fizzling out - and it's still years before the ban on building new petrol and diesel vehicles for sale (with a deadline that may well slip or be axed entirely).

When cities choose to go EV only, I guess that will make a total ban complete and that isn't going to be popular either, even though by 2040 or whenever such moves take place, EVs will likely be in the majority. Whatever the oil industry says or does, EVs are gaining in popularity. Now prices of all cars is falling, including second hand vehicles, there are many bargains out there.
 

tomuk

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Banning certain vehicles entirely would seem like the most environmentally solution rather than just charging them a daily fee, but politically I can't see how that could ever work. The Tories have lurched far to the right and are now getting more and more pressure from the oil companies who are in turn funding lots of influencers to preach about the benefits of oil and gas, and speak negatively about EVs, so their original plans to go green seem to be fizzling out - and it's still years before the ban on building new petrol and diesel vehicles for sale (with a deadline that may well slip or be axed entirely).

When cities choose to go EV only, I guess that will make a total ban complete and that isn't going to be popular either, even though by 2040 or whenever such moves take place, EVs will likely be in the majority. Whatever the oil industry says or does, EVs are gaining in popularity. Now prices of all cars is falling, including second hand vehicles, there are many bargains out there.
What utter tinfoil nonsense. I just went to the Shell UK website and what is at the the top of their homepage as a big headline banner?

Electric vehicle charging from Shell Recharge​

Shell Recharge Solutions offers access to over 20,000 public EV charging points across the UK, including 500 Shell Recharge points on forecourts, hubs and at destinations.
 

PGAT

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I find it hard to listen to politicians promoting the idea of improving air quality when simultaneously they are advocating the construction of massive amounts of urban housing to cater for population growth.

I simply don’t believe Khan is serious about improving air quality. It’s also notable that London’s large bus fleet is hardly good from a pollution point of view, something which is within Khan’s direct control. Indeed as someone who has cycled in London on occasions I find emissions from buses to be amongst the most invasive.
Excuse me? Have you seen the progress of the electric bus routes lately?
 

stuu

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So this is purely for London's air quality ? Nothing to do with reducing emissions from all vehicles, reducing particulates across the entire country, and nothing to do with climate change targets ?
Of course it is, it is only about local air quality in London. Just like the Bristol ULEZ is about air quality in Bristol. It's nothing to do with climate change, it's because air quality in cities is harmful
 

ComUtoR

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Banning certain vehicles entirely would seem like the most environmentally solution rather than just charging them a daily fee, but politically I can't see how that could ever work.

No, and this is probably the most genuine answer. Politically and practically, a ban wouldn't work. There is a severe lack of trust in the current Government and historically this will turn out bad in the long run. Short termism isn't working and it is an acceptance that we just do not have the desire to change but are happy to make small incremental changes to the benefit of the current generation.

My car is £20 a year for a reason. There was this big push for CO2 levels and I purchased a car with that in mind (its Diesel). Now we are moving to NOx, EV's are going to be taxed, and what next ? Lithium % based taxes ?

Small incremental change isn't helping. We are still polluting and still destroying the planet. Yay, London has a new ULEZ. Just sell your car to improve the second hand market (driving the economy (excuse the pun)) but push the problem elsewhere. Yes we have a 'scrappage scheme' but its doesn't go far enough and those non compliant Ulez cars will still be here and still be chuking out emissions, just elsewhere)

EVs are gaining in popularity. Now prices of all cars is falling, including second hand vehicles, there are many bargains out there.

I was at an EV expo this week and checked out a couple of EV's. The prices are still outrageous and unaffordable for many. Tax incentives are being removed and will no doubt slow down the uptake to EVs.

I live outside the ULEZ but work within it. I'm a few miles away from the border but I understand that those who are in a situation similar to me just see this as a punishment. From the school run, to local shopping. A better EV infrastructure would incentivise me to change vehicles and at work charging would tip that for sure.

The 'Congestion charge' and now 'Ulez' what next ?
 

jon0844

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What utter tinfoil nonsense. I just went to the Shell UK website and what is at the the top of their homepage as a big headline banner?

The oil companies are claiming to invest in green solutions because they get grants to do so, and they also have to show commitment to greener solutions - but they're all dragging their heels in reality. I say this as Shell is rebuilding my local petrol station to include EV charging bays, but like many forecourt charging stations (such as motorways services) they'll charge 50-80p per kWH when the normal rate is capped at around 30p (and many EV owners will be charging at 7-11p on a suitable tariff) and this suddenly makes using an EV almost the same cost as using petrol or diesel.

Now they're trying in some countries to push 'smart' e-fuels and hydrogen to keep themselves relevant - but ensuring that there's still demand for oil for years to come.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I was at an EV expo this week and checked out a couple of EV's. The prices are still outrageous and unaffordable for many. Tax incentives are being removed and will no doubt slow down the uptake to EVs.

For new cars, EVs are crazy expensive but then I also noticed just how much ICE cars are these days - and many of these petrol cars (diesel now having fallen out of favour, hence why I sold mine two years ago) are very underpowered - albeit quite economical.

Inflation hasn't helped, nor the Government scrapping incentives that seem to be growing in parts of Europe and in the rest of the world. We seem to be currently living with a Government that wants to turn back all moves to invest in green energy, or encourage people to get an EV, solar panels etc.

They say the market can compete without incentives, but most people can't afford to install solar and are therefore at the mercy of energy companies - while those who are well off can easily invest in panels, a home battery, charge their EV for free or maybe 7p kWH on an Octopus tariff, and earn money on the excess generation..

The poor (literally speaking) person with their old car is stuffed and nobody seems to care. While EVs are indeed expensive, in London especially, you'll see a lot of them on the roads and many are SUVs that cost from £60-100k! Cost of living crisis? What cost of living crisis?!

I want a small EV city car. I don't want it to be devoid of all modern features, but I don't want something like Mercedes' idea of a small car in the form of a £40k Smart, or BMWs idea for a Mini electric. Ford has given up on small cars, so no Fiesta EV, but the Chinese are coming with cars likely to be nearer £20-25k. Second hand, these will be £15-20k. As a new Ford Focus petrol is over £20k, that will do me fine. Plus if I do install solar panels and a battery, I can hopefully charge it up with free energy more than 50% of the time.
 
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The Ham

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ULEZ is about fleecing the motorist.

There is an argument that as demand increases, so those supplying will increase their prices to limit demand - a concept which many think it's a good one.

Arguably, given car use had gone up a significant amount in the last 30, 60, 90 years that this is just "market forces" being about the increase in cost to the supply side of road use.

Of course cars aren't the only way to get about, that may have been taught to people as a child as they were driven nearly everywhere and now they are an adult they believe this is the case.

The reality is that walking, cycling and public transport are viable options for more trips (not necessarily all, but certainly more) than many will use them for.

As an example, weather is often cited as a reason but to walk, yet even on nice days parking near schools is just as bad as it always is.

I find it hard to listen to politicians promoting the idea of improving air quality when simultaneously they are advocating the construction of massive amounts of urban housing to cater for population growth.

I simply don’t believe Khan is serious about improving air quality. It’s also notable that London’s large bus fleet is hardly good from a pollution point of view, something which is within Khan’s direct control. Indeed as someone who has cycled in London on occasions I find emissions from buses to be amongst the most invasive.

On an individual vehicle basis buses aren't great (although as others have noted there's a shift away from diesel buses), however a bus is often carrying 20 times the number of people as a car would and so the per person emissions are a lot lower. In addition a bus takes up the same road capacity as 2 cars, take that bus away and replace it with 20 cars and congestion would be even worse, causing even more pollution.

So this is purely for London's air quality ? Nothing to do with reducing emissions from all vehicles, reducing particulates across the entire country, and nothing to do with climate change targets ?



This isn't an incentive. It's punitive.



Which is more honest ? Allowing people to pay to pollute and gaining income from it or actually doing something about the issue ?

Don't worry, we can pollute and screw the planet for the next 50 years or so. Not my generation and not my problem, certainly not my parties term either.

The ordinary focus is for sure quality, however the side effect is that it also reduce carbon emissions.

How is it punitive? For those vehicles which aren't exempt (about 10%) they have a large charge to pay, certainly. However, there's a loophole which is fairly easy to take advantage of - buy a vehicle which isn't subject to the charge. This year been on the cards for a year (so about 1/3 to 1/5 of the time many people own a car for), however given that the old zone had the same rules then it's not unreasonable to expect many to have been thinking about having the right sort of car increase they needed to go into the old zone.

Yes some may have thought that they would have had a bit more time, or that they didn't ever go near the old zone. However, given that other cities have brought them in, the direction of travel has been clear for some time.

Pay to pollute isn't ideal, however either the charge is low (so people will do this as it's not going to really impact their finances) or its punitive? Which is it?

Certainly very few people are going to pay over £10 a day (on top of their other motoring costs).

However it certainly gives people the chance to get to the point where EV's are more affordable whilst still getting rid of the vehicles which will cause the most public health issues due to their emissions.

If course, my point above about people being taught that cars are the only way to get about also comes into play. £10/day over 200 days would be £2,000 - more than enough to buy an ebike for work for one year whilst still having access to a car a home. (Clearly few would do this, even though the second and subsequent years use of the ebike would be nearly free - other than charging cost which would be far lower than that of a EV car).
 

WelshBluebird

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Once again, the continuation of the ULEZ and its expansion is something that the government have mandated as part of TfL's funding agreement. It was also something that was initially created by a Conservative London Mayor. Even the Tory candidate for mayor isn't talking about getting rid of it (just stopping the expansion).
 
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johncrossley

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Well he is not going to get them by fleecing the motorist. This was shown at the recent Uxbridge bi-election.

Khan doesn't benefit financially from the charge personally. He's willing to put his political career on the line for the cause. It would be a lot easier for him to suck up to the motoring lobby.
 

WelshBluebird

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Well he is not going to get them by fleecing the motorist. This was shown at the recent Uxbridge bi-election.
Believe it or not some people support schemes like the ULEZ and the clean air zones other cities have introduced. Infact in some of those other cities, elections that the Tories have tried to fight on the basis of opposing those schemes left them very much leaving with their tails between their legs after the electorate rejected their doom and gloom fearmongering about such schemes.
 

greyman42

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Which translates as: my car is more important than other people's health
Or perhaps it translates as i need my vehicle to earn a living so i can pay the mortgage and the bills.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Believe it or not some people support schemes like the ULEZ and the clean air zones other cities have introduced.
And plenty do not support such schemes.
 

Sonic1234

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So how does this tally with governments being scared of the motorist? Most voters are also motorists, or at least have a motorist in the family.
Motorists are a reliable source of income. Driving is fairly price insensitive, people love their cars so will pay up for the freedom to drive. Public transport, for those who partake at all, is seen as a chore (buses particularly are the mode of last resort). People may complain, sign a petition, write to their MP but ultimately they'll pay.

This may change as the future as younger generations seem to embrace the options now available to not need to do day-to-day travel at all.
 

The Ham

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London does not have its own government.

Well he is not going to get them by fleecing the motorist. This was shown at the recent Uxbridge bi-election.

Would you actually have to pay?

If you don't know please put your reg into the TfL website and it'll tell you:

I for one (with a car over 10 years old) wouldn't. Now given the average age of cars and average age of scraping is within a few years of 10 years old (values vary depending on which sources you look at) there's likely to be a significant percentage of cars which are exempt.

It appears that there's a lot of fear of the cost without actually knowing if you'll have to pay.

Those most likely to need to pay are those with a diesel engine in their vehicle.
 

johncrossley

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If I had a diesel car, I would have scrapped it by now regardless of the cost, even if I didn't live in London. I wouldn't be able to drive it without guilt.
 

johncrossley

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Why would you feel guilt?

Because of the air pollution that can cause harm to people with particular respiratory problems, potentially even shortening their lives. At least older diesels, the ones that will incur the ULEZ charge. Newer diesels supposedly don't have such a problem with particulates.
 

tomuk

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Because of the air pollution that can cause harm to people with particular respiratory problems, potentially even shortening their lives. At least older diesels, the ones that will incur the ULEZ charge. Newer diesels supposedly don't have such a problem with particulates.
EVs and Petrol cars emit air pollution which is harmful. Newer diesels emit levels of Nox and PMs approaching that of petrols. Very old diesels although malodourous and smoky probably provide little concern. It is the middle age ones that are a problem but that is only relative. In any case to feel personal shame or guilt is to put it mildly an overreaction. Have you removed the gas boiler from your house or the even worse culprit a wood burner?
 

matacaster

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ULEZ has basically nothing to do with carbon, it's about increasing urban air quality. Certainly electric cars help (as does switching from a 10 year old diesel to a 10 year old petrol) but it'll be a long time before even most cars are electric so other actions are needed.

Carbon reduction is pretty much entirely separate.
It's actually to fill the mayor's coffers.
 

johncrossley

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EVs and Petrol cars emit air pollution which is harmful. Newer diesels emit levels of Nox and PMs approaching that of petrols. Very old diesels although malodourous and smoky probably provide little concern. It is the middle age ones that are a problem but that is only relative. In any case to feel personal shame or guilt is to put it mildly an overreaction. Have you removed the gas boiler from your house or the even worse culprit a wood burner?

There's simply no need to use a diesel car when petrol ones exist. Yes, it would be better to go without a car altogether. I actually have fully electric heating in my flat.
 

The Ham

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It's actually to fill the mayor's coffers.

If that was the main reason then surely it would be better to have the charge impact on more vehicles.

Current (March 2023) road usage suggests that 90% of vehicle trips within the zone would not be subject to the charge, given the fuss chance are that rate will fall before the expansion happens and will likely fall further within the first 3 months.

If you were to drive in London would your vehicle be subject to the charge?

Actually, it would be interesting to know how many who follow this thread (regardless of where they live) actual have a vehicle which would be subject to the charge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Created a new thread with a poll, let's see how it goes:

 

matacaster

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No, and this is probably the most genuine answer. Politically and practically, a ban wouldn't work. There is a severe lack of trust in the current Government and historically this will turn out bad in the long run. Short termism isn't working and it is an acceptance that we just do not have the desire to change but are happy to make small incremental changes to the benefit of the current generation.

My car is £20 a year for a reason. There was this big push for CO2 levels and I purchased a car with that in mind (its Diesel). Now we are moving to NOx, EV's are going to be taxed, and what next ? Lithium % based taxes ?

Small incremental change isn't helping. We are still polluting and still destroying the planet. Yay, London has a new ULEZ. Just sell your car to improve the second hand market (driving the economy (excuse the pun)) but push the problem elsewhere. Yes we have a 'scrappage scheme' but its doesn't go far enough and those non compliant Ulez cars will still be here and still be chuking out emissions, just elsewhere)



I was at an EV expo this week and checked out a couple of EV's. The prices are still outrageous and unaffordable for many. Tax incentives are being removed and will no doubt slow down the uptake to EVs.

I live outside the ULEZ but work within it. I'm a few miles away from the border but I understand that those who are in a situation similar to me just see this as a punishment. From the school run, to local shopping. A better EV infrastructure would incentivise me to change vehicles and at work charging would tip that for sure.

The 'Congestion charge' and now 'Ulez' what next ?
Some second-hand EV prices have dropped quite a bit. However that's because new EVs are very expensive, have improved range, so who is going to buy a second hand EV with poor range, still high price compared to a reasonable diesel or petrol runabout at £1k. Model for model EVs don't seem to be as luxurious as their petrol brethren either. Even Tesla get slated for poor build quality for the price.

It should be noted that around half of new EVs are company vehicles with cheap tax breaks for employees, managers and directors, quite why comparatively rich people and companies who can afford EVs should be subsidised is beyond me. If they are good and priced appropriately, people will buy them. Councils seem markedly reluctant to replace their fleets with EVs.
 
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