TfGM only operate Altrincham and Horwich Parkway.
No, but lots of ticket offices in Merseyside are closing.
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Indeed, the variation within a single operator’s network can be quite vast. I was taking a browse through the GWR changes document and noticed Barnstaple has a rather striking set of statistics:
Tickets sold at ticket office: 45.5%
Tickets sold at TVM: 5.5%
Tickets booked online: 48.9%
Cash payments: 22.2%
So that’s over half still purchased by more ‘traditional’ means. I’m not exactly surprised given the rural nature of the area and the fact there is probably a larger than average proportion of elderly people, but it’s in stark contrast to a location like Bath, where the population is much younger.
You're entitled to your views but if you compare the usage of the ticket office now, compared to 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago, and look at how well the Sainsbury's is used, it's difficult to argue that the changes aren't beneficial for people who actually use the station.
That's fine for now, but the days of CCST (credit card sized stock ticket) are numbered; at most ticket offices outside the London & South East area, you would be issued till roll stock; I refer you to other threads on the matter, where it's discussed in detail. Traditionalists who want to buy a credit card sized ticket at a ticket office cannot do so at many stations, such as York. This change is happening regardless of the proposals under discussion in this thread.
Mabs
Member
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National express probably only has a single stop or a couple at each City. Railway may have upto 20 stops just in one city. Can't compare National express to Railway.
The course for ticketing is 3 months long. Although around 4 weeks is about the legal side of things. What you can do, can't do, laws etc
None of the statistics have mentioned how many are sold by guards. It would be interesting to see those figures to compare.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
But on another current thread...
By way of other examples: St Pancras International (EMR) is remote from many approach directions to the relevant 'up' escalator(s) to the platforms; Derby isn't obvious from the popular Pride Park entrance; Nottingham from the mid-platform 'right of way' bridge, popular with many tram interchangers; Sheffield from the tram stop; Leeds from the South Entrance; Edinburgh Waverley from many directions; Birmingham New Street from many directions; Paddington from the Hammersmith & City Line; Reading, if you don't think in terms of the 'older' stations; let alone many peculiar small stations, such as Romiley.
WesternBiker
Member
Um... I thought that is what Great British Railways was supposed to do (with with the Rail Delivery Group)? It's not for me to make suggestions as to how (I'm not expert enough in the economics of ticket prices), but the need for simplification is widely recognised.
Ah, d'oh, of course there are other operators' stations in the area too. In any case, it'll mostly be Northern, whose TVMs now offer rangers, I believe. In Merseyside, that leaves Lime Street, which is NR-managed - I assume there's a Merseytravel ticket office or a Northern ticket machine somewhere? In GM, there's the NR-managed Manc Picc, and a couple stations each managed by Avanti and TPE - so yes, potential issues at all of those.
WesternBiker
Member
I wasn't trying to compare, or advocate for the National Express (NE) way of doing things: I was simply responding to a question up thread about whether NE had ticket offices...
Agreed. I am also reminded of one of the early disputes to be posted on this forum:
This is covered in other threads; it is not clear what is happening with GBR, and there is certainly no unanimous agreement over what "simplification" would actually mean, though I think we can all confidently say it would result in fare rises.
See:
Great British Railways - Binned
The Times are reporting that Rishi Sunak has binned GBR, and as a result will not be in the Kings Speech, and as such legislation can not be brought in. It’s behind paywall so can’t read much detail.
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Would fares reform be acceptable if it led to price increases?
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Is fares simplification irrelevant in an online world?
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Fares reform idea (from Twitter)
I saw the following posted on Twitter (by @sc_wadsy) and felt the forum may find it interesting as a matter for discussion. I've condensed it down from a series of tweets (originally posted nearly 4 weeks ago) for ease of reading. "My plan for fares reform (with inspiration from others): A...
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Fares reform consultation - which option are you most in favour of? (poll)
In the RDG's recent fares reform consultation, they are asking questions such as the kind of approach which fares reform should take. One of their questions is which of the following options you prefer: Option A No discounted tickets, standard ticket price lower than now The cost of a single...
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My ideas for fares reform
I believe there is a review going on at the moment about whether to reorganise the fares so that there is less disparity. I think the target is to make any proposal revenue neutral over all. Let's take the Leeds-London for example, how would people feel if we ended up with something like: All...
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Little Progress on Fares Reform
The DfT has published a progress report on its promised fares trials, and the results so far are minimal. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/669746/action-plan-information-on-rail-fares-ticketing.pdf Action 6 - Fares trials Background The Action Plan...
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AlbertBeale
Established Member
There's also Waterloo. Arriving from the taxi road on the Lower Marsh side of the station, as you go in that side entrance there's no way to see the ticket office (hidden behind various other shops etc, a long way away), and no signage to it either. I use that station and that entrance from time to time, hence I know I have to go across the concourse almost to the far side of the station to find the ticket office (though it's spacious enough when you find it). But why on earth aren't ticket offices signposted these days? It's almost as though someone doesn't want people to find them, so they can claim no-one wants to use them. I'm sure that main stations always used to have a ticket pictogram directing you to the ticket office as part of each package of direction signs.
Why are TfW doing this. Setting up a non standard 'offer' it just causes issues like them also withdrawing from Groupsave and having their own group discount not valid on other operators.
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They could just remove the coloured background from the tickets it isn't required to stop forgery as the barcode itself will provide the security.
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johncrossley
Established Member
Will monthly or longer season tickets be available from ticket machines?
In the last 500 flights I've taken I think I've had just one paper ticket, on a regional flight in a remote country about 10 years ago. IATA removed them in 2008, and the last ones were out of date by 2010.
When they started to be phased out in the 1990s, plenty of people said it couldn't be done. They were mostly gone - certainly in the US - a decade later.
frodshamfella
Established Member
I went to the ticket office at Liverpool Lime Street on Saturday, to purchase a ticket rather than use a machine. I expected there to be maybe 1 or 2 passengers waiting. Not at all, it was busy, with a reasonable length queue. I overheard at least two passengers asking questions which you really needed to talk to a person. I don't know if this office is stopping or not, but for cities which have a lot of visitors like Liverpool, its obviously invaluable.
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Maybe so, but travelling on longer journeys and trying to find reasonable fares is challenging for the average passenger.
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py_megapixel
Established Member
In GM I think Avanti only manages Stockport (plus of course Piccadilly, where they run the ticket office but don't manage the station). Piccadilly has two Northern machines on the concourse and another on the bridge; Stockport has one Northern machine; they each have four or five Avanti machines.
I didn't think Northern machines sold Traincards though, albeit it's a long time since I've tried to buy one. I can't think of any TPE stations in GM except Manchester Airport, which doesn't have Northern ticket machines but apparently will be retaining its ticket office.
A more significant issue is perhaps people beginning a journey outside GM who want a Traincard for travel within GM, though that will be a small number of people and I suppose they could be sold it on the train.
The post you responded to was:
So whilst you didn't explicitly use the word negotiation, you did say that you felt the consultation was "a tickbox sham" - and if you feel a "consultation" isn't the right vehicle, the alternatives are imposition without consultation or negotiation. Since you seem to be opposed to these changes, it's reasonable to assume you wouldn't support imposition without consultation, which leaves negotiation as the only avenue.
You missed the rather important work *almost*
88% are the RDG's figures - and if you go back to primary level maths, if you 'round' to the nearest 10 then 90 is the correct number. So my contention of 'almost' 90% is correct and based on fact.
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Well, no it isn't - the number who are using the web or apps and then making a purchase shows that's clearly not the case.
And most of the websites / apps make it clear the difference between the tickets - whether you are at the cheapest, quickest or most flexible.
That is particularly damning for the future of ticket offices if so.
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Any normal person would think that was utterly insane; 3 months training to sell tickets for railway journeys, and even then the passenger experience is often very poor.
pitdiver
Established Member
Talking of length of training. When I joined LUL back in 89 as a Booking Clerk. The training consisted of two weeks at the RTC in White City then 2-3 weeks on a station with a booking office trainer. After that back to the RTC for a series of written and practical exams/ assessments.
The final exam was conducted on a Sunday then you had to go back on the Monday morning to find out whether you had passed or not.
The final exam was conducted on a Sunday then you had to go back on the Monday morning to find out whether you had passed or not.
Because it allows Welsh Labour to preen themselves about how progressive they are, and throw out a few freebies. Leave the frontline staff to resolve the arguments.
What's the difference then between imposition without consultation, and this consultation? Do you think that this "consultation" would be taking place at all if it were not a legal requirement?
One of Sir Humphrey's golden rules was "never set up an inquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be"
I'm more than familiar with rounding thanks, so there's no need to patronise me. There was no need to round the figure, 88% is perfectly easy to write and I'm sure that you already knew the precise figure (it's been repeated here often enough). Therefore it is clear to me that you made a conscious decision to round in order to further your agenda. Sort of the reverse of when shops price goods at "£59.99" to trick gullible consumers into thinking that they're getting a significantly better deal than £60. We see you.
That'll be why I had a load of passengers with "Northern-only" tickets earlier then. Along with the ones who buy from the menu Trainline describe as "Open Return", then don't spot that they're really buying a day return (or a pair of). Showing restrictions in small print might let them claim that passengers have been warned, but it's still a sharp practice in my view.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The issue with day vs period returns could be easily resolved by the sales site accreditation requiring "Same Day Return" and "Period Return" as options rather than the confusing "Open Return".
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Lime St has Northern TVMs on the main concourse (separate from Avanti's).
The Merseyrail ticket office is in the basement under St George's Hall, and has a single TVM outside.
When I used it last week the screen was out of focus and the touch screen functionality was unusable.
Earlier I bought a bog-standard return to Lime St from a Merseyrail ticket office and was greeted by 3 ticketing staff.
Could have been about 3 button pushes on a TVM, or app, like the council-operated station car park next door, for most passengers.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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One thing to note too at Barnstable, as I've tweeted about, is that it is a single platform station where the main entrance to that platform takes you directly past the ticket office window. I suspect that partly explains the high use of the ticket office, but also raises the question of if this isn't just an excuse to cut jobs, where does the member of staff at Barnstable go when the ticket office closes that is anywhere near as useful as that location? The station cafe?
True. But as with so many of these cases that people are raising where yes technically you can solve the issues without having ticket offices, how about the industry actually makes that change BEFORE closing ticket offices then?
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I still sometimes print paper boarding passes when on business trips because they are easy to attach to an expense report.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A paper expenses report? How quaint.
Anyway, what would they need a boarding pass for? It doesn't prove you flew nor that you spent money, it just proves you printed a boarding pass.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
It was electronic so we had to submit a JPEG of the boarding passes.
My former company required it and they also required they be stamped by security which happens in the USA. As to why, some fricking genius decided it would be great to get a fully refundable (and also expensive air fare) - claim it on expenses and then drive it. How he got caught out I dont recall but he was of course fired on the spot!.
When I flew to South Korea, I attached a JPEG of my passport stamps with the expense report just to prove it. Way over the top but hey-ho, I value my job.
Anyway, to keep from drifting off topic too much, at a former company in the UK - I won't say which one, one person claimed for a 1st class return rail fare to Euston from the north - and you guessed it, drove it. Again. later on, the company wanted actual rail tickets if possible (ideally gripped by a conductor/guard), attached to the expense report.
I could tell you some more outrageous stories, but would be way OT!
Those aren't tickets. That's like printing an e-ticket.
The international airline industry finished moving to e-tickets 15 years ago
Any chance of the railways industry catching up?
Back when I started twentysomething years ago, we got three weeks of classroom training. That included Excesses, Rail-Sea-Rail, Sleepers, and Rangers & Rovers; also a couple of shifts shadowing in our eventual home Ticket Office and a "familiarisation" day, where we had to take a trip around the network and answer a few questions about the day.
Nowadays you're lucky if you get two classroom days to learn the basics, and the rest is done on the job.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I have tried to stay neutral on this thread but something has to change. We have always done it this way attitude will not wash anymore. Once everyone is used to the new way whatever that is, it won’t take long to settle down.
One stat I saw today (and apologies if this is mentioned in any of the previous 1200 posts) is that the proportion of tickets sold at Ticket Offices has halved in just 4 years. More interestingly, the proportion sold at TVMs has also fallen in the same timescale, almost by half as well.
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