ASLEF non-contractual overtime bans -various dates and TOCs

[baz962]

Exactly. This is why it is so frustrating when you hear comments like "just get back to work". The government are trying to make massive changes to our PERSONAL lives with the daft conditions changes they want. Some things are more valuable than money and I suspect lots of drivers, like you would hand in their key where some of these changes imposed. Support for the action amongst drivers is still incredibly strong, and until the government stop playing silly beggars then it will just go on and on.

Especially hearing just get back to work. I wouldn't dream of saying it to anyone else and it's quite odd considering it's a rest day ban and not a strike. I wonder if all the passengers would work on their days off because the company they work for is understaffed.

 

[156421]

Having previously earned more sitting on my backside in an office, I know which job is more deserving of the salary.

Are train drivers not seated on their backsides when working?

 

[Evolution]

Are train drivers not seated on their backsides when working?

Some like to stand (traction permitting)

 

[baz962]

Are train drivers not seated on their backsides when working?

Not always. If you are refueling shunting and prepping units in a depot or siding , you can sometimes do far more walking than sitting.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes mediocre, considering it's worth about 25% less than it was 4 years ago. The drivers salary is also about half that of a captain at a decent airline. Why is the benchmark always the average salary?
In London especially, 50-60k is by no means a great salary, it's mediocre as I said.

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people, in fact most people including many in London earn considerably less. And some of those people work equally unsociable hours, often with hard graft involved. Yes your wages will be not as good as they were against inflation, but guess what? Most people are in the same boat. Until I punted for a double promotion, my wage was falling year on year against inflation for well over a decade. I only put up with it because of the pension scheme at the time.

As for aline captains, there's nothing stopping you going for it, although you may need some overtime to front your training costs. Oh and you will be expected to work even more unsociable hours, and have even more skill and knowledge on all types craft you are rated for. And aircraft are very much more difficult things to manage. Seriously that is just a ridiculous comparison. But if you do choose a new career, good luck with it. But there will be plenty of people more than happy to take on those kinds of salaries.

 

[Dieseldriver]

As for aline captains, there's nothing stopping you going for it, although you may need some overtime to front your training costs. Oh and you will be expected to work even more unsociable hours, and have even more skill and knowledge on all types craft you are rated for. And aircraft are very much more difficult things to manage. Seriously that is just a ridiculous comparison. But if you do choose a new career, good luck with it. But there will be plenty of people more than happy to take on those kinds of salaries.

Do you find it equally as ridiculous when people compare Train Drivers to Bus Drivers?

 

[LAX54]

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people, in fact most people including many in London earn considerably less. And some of those people work equally unsociable hours, often with hard graft involved. Yes your wages will be not as good as they were against inflation, but guess what? Most people are in the same boat. Until I punted for a double promotion, my wage was falling year on year against inflation for well over a decade. I only put up with it because of the pension scheme at the time.

As for aline captains, there's nothing stopping you going for it, although you may need some overtime to front your training costs. Oh and you will be expected to work even more unsociable hours, and have even more skill and knowledge on all types craft you are rated for. And aircraft are very much more difficult things to manage. Seriously that is just a ridiculous comparison. But if you do choose a new career, good luck with it. But there will be plenty of people more than happy to take on those kinds of salaries.

Remeber a few years back, we were flying home from the USA, thick fog at Heathrow, but we landed as smooth as ever, Captain came on the intercom whilst taxiing, saying if we noticed the nice smooth landing, after a pause he said, it was nothing to do with the flight crew, the plane was on auto-land and did it all itself, as he knew it would be easier than a manual land.

imagine a train zooming along in fog, and driver saying the train can stop itself at the terminus

Plus planes dont have tresspassers, animals, red signals, stations, level crossings, bridges, points, PSR's, ESR's etc at 38,000 feet

 

[Bantamzen]

Do you find it equally as ridiculous when people compare Train Drivers to Bus Drivers?

Yep.

Remeber a few years back, we were flying home from the USA, thick fog at Heathrow, but we landed as smooth as ever, Captain came on the intercom whilst taxiing, saying if we noticed the nice smooth landing, after a pause he said, it was nothing to do with the flight crew, the plane was on auto-land and did it all itself, as he knew it would be easier than a manual land.

imagine a train zooming along in fog, and driver saying the train can stop itself at the terminus

Plus planes dont have tresspassers, animals, red signals, stations, level crossings, bridges, points, PSR's, ESR's etc at 38,000 feet

Let's be honest, if a trans-Atlantic aircraft can auto-land, what's to stop the same tech working on trains. Be careful what you wish for etc etc...

But seriously if anybody thinks even for a second an airline captain is no more of a skilled role than a train driver, they are having a laugh, or need to up the dose...

 

[Minstral25]

which is why all operators should reset their timetables to deliver within known establishments and not rely upon o/t or RDW. So be it if the timetables become erratic intervals during the day at least the maximum service thats can be achieved will be delivered unlike GTR where they have a blanket 50% or more cut across the board irrespective of depot establishment.

It's a 68% cut is services all week on the Redhill route (100% cut of Southern trains, 50% cut plus on Thameslink) and the 2 remaining trains run within minutes of each hour leaving massive gaps - how we are supposed to squeeze into 68% less trains is impossible and their position is that they are not able to get planning staff to look at improvements as they have too much work.

Incompetent Management at GTR and too lazy is the accurate description

 

[Evolution]

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people, in fact most people including many in London earn considerably less. And some of those people work equally unsociable hours, often with hard graft involved. Yes your wages will be not as good as they were against inflation, but guess what? Most people are in the same boat. Until I punted for a double promotion, my wage was falling year on year against inflation for well over a decade. I only put up with it because of the pension scheme at the time.

As for aline captains, there's nothing stopping you going for it, although you may need some overtime to front your training costs. Oh and you will be expected to work even more unsociable hours, and have even more skill and knowledge on all types craft you are rated for. And aircraft are very much more difficult things to manage. Seriously that is just a ridiculous comparison. But if you do choose a new career, good luck with it. But there will be plenty of people more than happy to take on those kinds of salaries.

You’re wrong on so many counts.

Firstly, train driving is a skilled, specialised role so you can’t compare it with what “most people” do or earn. This is where you misunderstood my point. The reference to an airline pilot is because it’s a more comparable role that pays ‘generally more’ so why compare train driving with average wages, let’s compare with comparable roles (i.e a pilot).

With regards to the pilot role the ex Air Lingus pilot at my depot who was a line training captain would disagree with pretty much everything you said about that role. He actually says train driving requires you to be more alert for a much longer time than flying did (no autopilot). Handling skills in low adhesion are comparable and more “hands on”.

How do you know which requires more knowledge have you done either? I’ll stick to speaking to people who’ve actually done both in order to form an accurate observation of the roles, thank you very much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Anyway going off on a slight tangent, back on topic!

 

[BPN2022]

Wouldn’t be surprised to see most Saturdays in August targeted, and half the summer hols hit by a overtime ban too as they will no doubt try to ramp things up a bit.

Could be a difficult summer again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Also, you do have to wonder if the DFT are testing the water a bit with these reduction plans due to ASLEF overtime ban and seeing what works and what doesn’t on a reduced scale for a long term strategy.

 

[Bantamzen]

You’re wrong on so many counts.

Firstly, train driving is a skilled, specialised role so you can’t compare it with what “most people” do or earn. This is where you misunderstood my point. The reference to an airline pilot is because it’s a more comparable role that pays ‘generally more’ so why compare train driving with average wages, let’s compare with comparable roles (i.e a pilot).

With regards to the pilot role the ex Air Lingus pilot at my depot who was a line training captain would disagree with pretty much everything you said about that role. He actually says train driving requires you to be more alert for a much longer time than flying did (no autopilot). Handling skills in low adhesion are comparable and more “hands on”.

How do you know which requires more knowledge have you done either? I’ll stick to speaking to people who’ve actually done both in order to form an accurate observation of the roles, thank you very much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Anyway going off on a slight tangent, back on topic!

And my point was train driver salaries are not mediocre. Whether or not they reflect the skills is for the unions, employers and the government to sort out.

Oh for the record I do know a driver, a couple of pilots of commercial craft and a former captain who still works in the industry...

 

[Jan Mayen]

Describing the drivers salary as mediocre is not going to get much sympathy from people who earn less.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Exactly, The government have already admitted that strikes are costing more money than settling the dispute. Therefore a new government has an incentive to sort this quickly rather than carry on.

Labour might have a short honeymoon period when (if?) they win the election.
But you don't have to go very far back to find they can be just as intransigent as the Tories over public finances.
They certainly don't have a magic money tree.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Describing the drivers salary as mediocre is not going to get much sympathy from people who earn less.

As a Driver I do agree with you. I think the issue is that Drivers these days come from varied backgrounds, some from lower paid jobs, some have been in the industry/role for most of their adult life, some have a higher level of education and have come from careers that are paid on par with Train Drivers wages.
People from the latter group are much more likely to wonder ‘is this job really worth it for what’s on offer elsewhere?’.
For the shift work alone we aren’t paid enhanced rates for anti social hours (anti social hours being a fundamental ‘goes without saying’ aspect of the job). If say you have a Driver on 60k working erratic shifts who knows they could potentially find a job ‘outside’ with more sociable hours but for 10k less in salary (due to their previous work experience), they could easily argue that the 50k salary in that role is comparable to the 60k Drivers salary when you take into account the ‘shift allowance’.
Train Driving is well paid, I would never dispute that, but remember only a very small part of this dispute is wage related.

 

[TTD31]

Describing the drivers salary as mediocre is not going to get much sympathy from people who earn less.

Depends how you view it but in my opinion it is mediocre considering the level of skill required to carry out the job. Even those TOCs/FOCs which pay a higher salary comes at T&C's cost.

I don't think people realise how quickly inflation has eroded the buying power of a modest salary. For example a £55k salary in 2019 would need to be £67k in 2023 to have kept up with inflation. Yet when a settlement does get sorted I doubt that the drivers who earn in that region will be receiving a £12k payrise.

 

[43066]

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people, in fact most people including many in London earn considerably less. And some of those people work equally unsociable hours, often with hard graft involved. Yes your wages will be not as good as they were against inflation, but guess what? Most people are in the same boat.

You could say the same about anyone earning more than the average salary. Frankly it’s insulting that you clearly have such low regard for the skill of train drivers, despite obviously having very little understanding of the job.

Until I punted for a double promotion, my wage was falling year on year against inflation for well over a decade. I only put up with it because of the pension scheme at the time.

So really your argument is something bad happened to you, therefore you want to see the same happen to others. I’m afraid it smacks a little of green eyes.

Oh and you will be expected to work even more unsociable hours, and have even more skill and knowledge on all types craft you are rated for. And aircraft are very much more difficult things to manage. Seriously that is just a ridiculous comparison.

As ridiculous as commenting on two jobs you’ve never done? You’ll find that training time and cost is around the same for train drivers and airline pilots so the comparison makes sense - certainly more so the the usual nonsensical comparison to bus drivers who can be trained up in only a few days. Much as I respect bus driving as an undervalued and difficult role at times, the skill levels simply aren’t comparable.

Describing the drivers salary as mediocre is not going to get much sympathy from people who earn less.

It’s completely irrelevant what people who earn less think! If they think it’s a cushy number they’re welcome to apply. Many do and then soon find that they don’t cut the mustard…

 

[Silverlinky]

With the pilot references, its quite easy to find First Officer salaries of less than a train drivers salary, the First Officer will go through training school and learn the ropes (often at their own expense) and will fly the plane with all the responsibility that entails...... salary with Ryanair around 50k, with Easyjet its currently around 55k, and with BA in the region of 65-70k.

True, when you finally reach the rank of Captain the pay is more, but its not uncommon for it to take 10 years of flying or more before you become a Captain and really earn the money I think is being talked about in some of the above posts.

 

[43066]

Depends how you view it but in my opinion it is mediocre considering the level of skill required to carry out the job. Even those TOCs/FOCs which pay a higher salary comes at T&C's cost.

I don't think people realise how quickly inflation has eroded the buying power of a modest salary. For example a £55k salary in 2019 would need to be £67k in 2023 to have kept up with inflation. Yet when a settlement does get sorted I doubt that the drivers who earn in that region will be receiving a £12k payrise.

A very sensible post. There is a shortage of labour in this country and wages are growing - yet the government thinks it’s acceptable to artificially suppress wages of train drivers, at a greater cost to the public than settling the dispute. The reasons for doing so are to do with ideology and playing to the politics of envy, of course.

The actual salary (as seen when looking at freight operators, Eurostar etc.) should really be over £70k by now.

 

[Bantamzen]

Depends how you view it but in my opinion it is mediocre considering the level of skill required to carry out the job. Even those TOCs/FOCs which pay a higher salary comes at T&C's cost.

I don't think people realise how quickly inflation has eroded the buying power of a modest salary. For example a £55k salary in 2019 would need to be £67k in 2023 to have kept up with inflation. Yet when a settlement does get sorted I doubt that the drivers who earn in that region will be receiving a £12k payrise.

@Jan Mayen made a very good point just above. Telling people that you need an extra £12K rise to keep up with inflation isn't going to gain much support from people for whom £12K would represent almost half or more of their current pay. I've made this point before but public opinion becomes a lot more important when the decision makers are chasing votes.

Despite what @43066 continues to incorrectly claim, I am not anti-union, anti-drivers or any other part of the railway industry. I have said all along the economic scenario we are in is not the right one fo go chasing big payouts. And this is as true for my job as it is any other. What they also fail to acknowledge is that I said the government would dig in right back at the start, and they have. They have dug in for the reason stated above, which was also what I said right back at the beginning.

If people in the industry want a return to little or no interference in these matters from government, the answer is painfully simple. The industry needs to convince the private sector to get back on board. I'm sorry but that's the bottom line.

 

[baz962]

A very sensible post. There is a shortage of labour in this country and wages are growing - yet the government thinks it’s acceptable to artificially suppress wages of train drivers, at a greater cost to the public than settling the dispute. The reasons for doing so are to do with ideology and playing to the politics of envy, of course.

The actual salary (as seen when looking at freight operators, Eurostar etc.) should really be over £70k by now.

And overground and crossrail and Avanti, southwestern and Lner. Massive disparity between the highest and lowest. Around 20k

 

[TTD31]

@Jan Mayen made a very good point just above. Telling people that you need an extra £12K rise to keep up with inflation isn't going to gain much support from people for whom £12K would represent almost half or more of their current pay. I've made this point before but public opinion becomes a lot more important when the decision makers are chasing votes.

Unfortunately British mentality as a whole is "I don't get xyz so why should you". When profits are being made by big businesses, windfall taxes aren't properly implemented and the DfT subsidising TOCs for strike days it's a shame that public opinion falls to thinking that workers should not get inflation payrises.

 

[Train_manager]

Depends how you view it but in my opinion it is mediocre considering the level of skill required to carry out the job. Even those TOCs/FOCs which pay a higher salary comes at T&C's cost.

I don't think people realise how quickly inflation has eroded the buying power of a modest salary. For example a £55k salary in 2019 would need to be £67k in 2023 to have kept up with inflation. Yet when a settlement does get sorted I doubt that the drivers who earn in that region will be receiving a £12k payrise.

Take T&C's out of the equation. GBrf drivers got a 7% ish payrise this year. That takes them to 66.3k. I believe they was on 55k or lower in 2919.

 

[12LDA28C]

Take T&C's out of the equation. GBrf drivers got a 7% ish payrise this year. That takes them to 66.3k. I believe they was on 55k or lower in 2919.

If the DfT took Ts & Cs out of the equation, the dispute would be settled pretty much instantly, as many on this forum have stated repeatedly.

 

[LAX54]

You’re wrong on so many counts.

Firstly, train driving is a skilled, specialised role so you can’t compare it with what “most people” do or earn. This is where you misunderstood my point. The reference to an airline pilot is because it’s a more comparable role that pays ‘generally more’ so why compare train driving with average wages, let’s compare with comparable roles (i.e a pilot).

With regards to the pilot role the ex Air Lingus pilot at my depot who was a line training captain would disagree with pretty much everything you said about that role. He actually says train driving requires you to be more alert for a much longer time than flying did (no autopilot). Handling skills in low adhesion are comparable and more “hands on”.

How do you know which requires more knowledge have you done either? I’ll stick to speaking to people who’ve actually done both in order to form an accurate observation of the roles, thank you very much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Anyway going off on a slight tangent, back on topic!

Funny you should say that, we had a group pay a visit to the PSB, they had been to see the depot and we were an added attraction ! ALL of them said that after talking to Drivers, that it bore a good likeness to their job, BUT far more stressful, didn'y know how they remembered all they needed to know for all the routes they signed, and they all said they would not be able to do it, the permanent concentration level was far higher than theirs, they thought the knowledge goals were similar.

 

[Train_manager]

If the DfT took Ts & Cs out of the equation, the dispute would be settled pretty much instantly, as many on this forum have stated repeatedly.

I was referring to Foc Vs Toc t+c`s etc.

And I agree with you.

 

[43066]

Take T&C's out of the equation. GBrf drivers got a 7% ish payrise this year. That takes them to 66.3k. I believe they was on 55k or lower in 2919.

That sounds like a sensible deal reflecting the current circumstances. But of course GBRF is a commercial company without limitless taxpayers’ cash to waste sustaining an unnecessary industrial dispute.

If the DfT took Ts & Cs out of the equation, the dispute would be settled pretty much instantly, as many on this forum have stated repeatedly.

Indeed. I can’t think of any other industries where the government is taking it upon itself to actively prevent employers negotiating Ts and Cs and pay rises with their own employees…

 

[NI 271]

I have said all along the economic scenario we are in is not the right one fo go chasing big payouts.

They're not doing that, however. They're trying to stop their terms and conditions being decimated. I've not seen any of them, either on here nor anywhere else, demand a "big payout" (ie one that would reverse the real-terms cuts staff at many TOCs have faced over the last four years - and the post you quote doesn't do that either, it merely suggests the sort of figure those staff would need in order to do so), but I have seen plenty say circa 5% with no change to T&Cs would see them accept.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's a 68% cut is services all week on the Redhill route (100% cut of Southern trains, 50% cut plus on Thameslink) and the 2 remaining trains run within minutes of each hour leaving massive gaps - how we are supposed to squeeze into 68% less trains is impossible and their position is that they are not able to get planning staff to look at improvements as they have too much work.

Indeed you would at least think they would at least put one of the Tlk on the other half hour. Also bizarre they are trying to run the 9J's which need split crews (several cancelled today) when the 9R's are worked throughout by either Bridges or Bedford drivers. Plenty of drivers in the lobby at Redhill when i passed through early as well hardly surprising given their main duties the 1R's have all been canned.

Incompetent Management at GTR and too lazy is the accurate description

There is no incentive on them to do anything better but DfT should instruct them to basically rehash the timetable to what can be delivered by driver establishment without o/t or RDW. Might not be even throughout the day but will be a darn sight better than what is being offered this week and at least use the resources that are having to be paid for whether they are allocated work or not.

Reality is the ASLEF membership have democratically voted for action which along with govt policy not to give any ground to any group of state funded workers now means this situation will not be resolved anytime soon hence my view is operators just need to implement the best timetables they can with the resources they have.

 

[Jan Mayen]

It’s completely irrelevant what people who earn less think! If they think it’s a cushy number they’re welcome to apply. Many do and then soon find that they don’t cut the mustard…

Thank you for letting me know my opinion is irrelevant. Could the moderators please ensure future posts to this thread are only made by people who earn at least as much as 43066?