Brexit matters

[E27007]

Sadly I think second hand car prices have crashed now the waiting times have fallen markedly (not all brands/models of course).

With many EVs not coming with loads of configurable options, as long as you're not too fussed about colour, it's actually possible to get one in a matter of weeks (or maybe a couple of month) instead of six months to a year.

Second hand EV prices are also falling at last, as you'd expect when new cars are less difficult to get.

It was reported in the car trade journals, some of the big players in retail had suspended taking in Ev cars as trade-ins, the resale value of those EVs was too much of a risk for profitability

 

[jon0844]

EVs were reselling at crazy prices, way too high, with old Nissan Leafs going for amounts nobody would consider logical given the old battery tech/lack of conditioning.

Car dealers are usually pretty savvy, so I'm not sure what people you're talking about. People want EVs, people are buying EVs, and second hand EVs are a much safer bet for people buying second or third hand - as there's far less to go wrong with them.

This is why the UKs lack of preparation for EVs is going to cost so many jobs here.

Now a real problem now is that with second hand car prices falling back to normal, dealers who have agreed to take an old vehicle in part exchange are now refusing to honour their deal as people wait for their new car. People are therefore being forced to either cancel the order for their new car (most likely EV as these have the longer wait times), or stump up the extra money.

 

[edwin_m]

If I was buying a second-hand EV I'd want some kind of assurance about the state of the battery, considering it's such a major part of the value and its life may be shorter than the rest of the vehicle.

 

[jon0844]

They can be tested quite easily, plus the battery has a value even when it drops to 80% capacity - being usable for home battery storage etc, or being fully recycled (and there is at least one UK company doing this very effectively already - and I'd say it would be the type of company to invest in for the future).

It'll be the things present in ICE vehicles also that are more likely to render a car as end of life, like electronic systems that fail and simply cost too much to replace.

 

[edwin_m]

More evidence of the incompetence of Boris Johnson (even worse than Liz Truss in this case), and the desperation to get trade deals regardless of how bad they were for Britain.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-s-10bn-australia-trade-deal-blunder-branded-an-embarrassment/ar-AA1c3aco?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e8e6491063ed4cf4ac01bee024b0ca27&ei=17

Over a chaotic dinner in No 10 in early 2021, an Australian official is reported to have cobbled together an agreement over meat import quotas on his way to the loo, which he rushed to get Mr Johnson to sign before the final course.

Liz Truss, who at the time was serving as international trade secretary and later tried to unpick the deal, is said to have been told later: “Your boss has conceded the whole kingdom.”
...

The deal saw the then prime minister agree to measure beef imports by the weight of only cuts of meat, rather than the entire cow, which is much heavier – effectively signing off a massive increase in how much meat Australia can send to Britain, it is alleged.

 

[E27007]

More evidence of the incompetence of Boris Johnson (even worse than Liz Truss in this case), and the desperation to get trade deals regardless of how bad they were for Britain.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-s-10bn-australia-trade-deal-blunder-branded-an-embarrassment/ar-AA1c3aco?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e8e6491063ed4cf4ac01bee024b0ca27&ei=17

1) will the UK consumer receive a benefit of readily available low-cost cuts of meat or not?
2) will we import less high-priced meat from the EU?
3) The idea that for import purposes, we have to equate the weight of edible meat to the weight of the entire animal, seems to be an example of the peculiar thinking of the EU Commission

 

[Wynd]

1) will the UK consumer receive a benefit of readily available low-cost cuts of meat or not?
2) will we import less high-priced meat from the EU?
3) The idea that for import purposes, we have to equate the weight of edible meat to the weight of the entire animal, seems to be an example of the peculiar thinking of the EU Commission

1. If recent price action of retailer's is anything to go by, lower input costs may well not be passed on.
2. Define high cost. Cost in $$ or welfare, or environmental damage?
3. Is that peculiar?

 

[edwin_m]

1) will the UK consumer receive a benefit of readily available low-cost cuts of meat or not?
2) will we import less high-priced meat from the EU?
3) The idea that for import purposes, we have to equate the weight of edible meat to the weight of the entire animal, seems to be an example of the peculiar thinking of the EU Commission

(1) time will tell, but any benefit probably swamped by inflation, higher in the UK than elsewhere partly due to Brexit.
(2) I thought we were promised the ability to set better animal welfare standards than the EU ones.
(3) It may or may not be peculiar, the point is that the Australians ran rings round our incompetent prime minister.

 

[E27007]

(1) time will tell, but any benefit probably swamped by inflation, higher in the UK than elsewhere partly due to Brexit.
(2) I thought we were promised the ability to set better animal welfare standards than the EU ones.
(3) It may or may not be peculiar, the point is that the Australians ran rings round our incompetent prime minister.

Here is a link to the details of the trade deal:
UK AHDB article
As I read the article , Imports of Australian Beef will lose the 20% Tariff and become subject to a rising annual upper quota limits over 10 years.
UK imports 270,000 tonnes of Beef , mainly from the EU and Ireland, current figures are Australian Beef imports are only 2500-3000 tonnes. Over 10 years the Australian beef may account for 170,000 tonnes of imports, the tariff -free quota is for 170,000 tonnes.
Potentially EU beef imports will fall to 100,000 tonnes.
If Australia becomes the dominant player then prices may well fall below EU imported beef
Australian beef is typically a premium product., and Austrailia is an efficient low-cost producer, As a consequence t of the deal we may be enjoying tasty steaks for the price of bland mince.
The peculiar thinking of the EU, who for the purposes of the quota and tariff system, equated the weight of the edible meat with the weight of the animal, was probably to force us to accept the lower quality meat cuts and to force everyone to pay tariff on the unwanted offal

 

[jon0844]

There are a few op-ed articles and Tweets from right wing people suggesting processed food wasn't/isn't a big deal and didn't do any of us any harm, which makes me think there's a coordinated effort (Tufton Street perhaps?) to get us behind a reduction in food standards. Chlorinated chicken next?

 

[geoffk]

In an interview with the Observer, Gary Smith, General Secretary of the GMB union, one of Labour’s biggest financial backers, said politicians of all parties had been too afraid to admit the adverse consequences that leaving the EU was having on jobs and life in working communities. He said there has been a lack of honesty and a fear among politicians to face up to the impact that Brexit is having on the economy. “In terms of what the future looks like, it needs to start from a position of honesty. It is hitting trade. It is hitting investment and we need a new settlement."

Labour needs an ‘honest debate’ about Brexit damage, union warns

Unless Britain develops a closer relationship with the EU it will continue to haemorrhage investment and jobs, says the GMB

www.theguardian.com

Some encouraging news then but other union leaders backed brexit and don't appear to have changed their position despite the evidence against it piling up. I mean Mick Lynch and Len McCluskey of course. The latter was one of the cheerleaders for brexit, I seem to remember.

 

[ainsworth74]

Australian beef is typically a premium product., and Austrailia is an efficient low-cost producer, As a consequence t of the deal we may be enjoying tasty steaks for the price of bland mince.

And presumably either putting our own farmers out of business or having to lower our welfare standards to match those of Australia? Not entirely sure that's a massive win nor indeed what we promised.

 

[E27007]

And presumably either putting our own farmers out of business or having to lower our welfare standards to match those of Australia? Not entirely sure that's a massive win nor indeed what we promised.

Do you have evidence that Austraiian welfare and food standards are lower than EU standards?
Half of EU bovine meat is produced by only three member states, France Germany Italy, .
It will be the French farmers, who have enjoyed considerable privileges of guaranteed income by subsidies will suffer from the competition of the new UK deal

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you have evidence that Austraiian welfare and food standards are lower than EU standards?

ABC:

...
Hormone treatment

Hormonal growth promotants (HGPs) are used widely in Australia, while they have been banned in the EU and, therefore the UK since 1998.

Around 40 per cent of cattle in Australia are given HGPs, which are used to accelerate weight gain, according to Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ)

...

Pesticides

The EU and Britain have banned or have stricter standards on a number of pesticides that are commonly used in Australian farming.

For example, neonicotinoids used on Australian crops, including cotton, canola, cereals, sunflower, potato, many vegetable crops and fruits, are banned in the UK and EU because of concerns they cause harm to bees.

...

Animal welfare

Professor Parker said one of the main differences in animal welfare regulations between the two countries was around intensively farmed livestock.

"In the EU and therefore, in the UK they outlawed battery cages and we haven't done that yet, here in Australia," she said.

"And it's a similar situation with pigs. They've got stricter rules.

"Their pigs, the sows, spend less time in these stalls where they're just totally confined than by the law in the Australian system."

...

How UK food standards differ from ours, and why British farmers are nervous about a trade deal

Differences in food and agriculture standards between the United Kingdom and Australia have emerged as issues for British farmers, as the two nations get closer to a trade deal.

www.abc.net.au

RSPCA:

However, we've spoken to our sister charity in Australia who has warned that British consumers 'need to know' about the often painful and distressing farming methods used.

Chief Executive of the Australian charity, Richard Mussell said that standards in Australia 'fall below' those in the UK and were 'basic at best'.

He said the country still uses methods long outlawed in the UK and that the standards set in the country are rarely audited and are not mandatory.

Richard said:

"Unfortunately, animal welfare standards in Australia are basic at best. In 2021, we still do not have Australia-wide laws that ban the use of sow stalls in pig production, barren battery cages in egg production or require pain relief for very painful procedures like dehorning of calves and mulesing of lambs. Standards are rarely audited and, unless implemented into law, which few are, they are only voluntary.

"The lack of national leadership on animal welfare in Australia needs to be addressed urgently if the lives of farm animals are going to be significantly improved."

Details | rspca.org.uk

Australian beef standards below the UK's in four areas as RSPCA and RSPCA Australia join forces to show the reality behind Australian welfare standards.

www.rspca.org.uk

Meanwhile the NFU don't seem pleased particularly with the deal either:

The trade agreements that the UK concluded with Australia and New Zealand in 2022 will enter into force on 31 May 2023.

Since then, the NFU has strongly criticised the outcomes of the two negotiations because the FTAs (Free Trade Agreements) eliminate tariffs for agricultural products.

This means that for sensitive sectors like beef and lamb, dairy and horticulture, in time, there will be no limit to the number of goods Australia and New Zealand can export to the UK.

In addition, there appears to be little in those trade deals to benefit British farmers.

UK farm businesses face significantly higher production costs than farmers in Australia and New Zealand, and margins are likely to tighten further in the face of rising input costs, higher energy bills and labour shortages.

Australia and New Zealand trade deals come into force

The trade agreements that the UK concluded with Australia and New Zealand in 2022 will come into force on 31 May 2023.

www.nfuonline.com

Half of EU bovine meat is produced by only three member states, France Germany Italy, .

So? I'm more concerned about British farmers and British consumers personally speaking now we're outside the EU.

It will be the French farmers, who have enjoyed considerable privileges of guaranteed income by subsidies will suffer from the competition of the new UK deal

I'm not entirely clear how a deal which has a chance of harming our agricultural sector will harm French farmers. Especially as we're now outside the EU. Nor the relevance to UK farmers and UK consumers?

Again, low cost beef if produced to poorer welfare and health standards is not a good outcome for the consumer and if it puts British beef farmers out of business is not a good for the farmers and the domestic farming industry. That is my concern with this Australia agreement. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong and I'll walk into a supermarket soon and find that a sirloin steak costs £4, was produced to the highest welfare standards, that British beef farmers enjoy the highest production levels and profits in history. But I rather doubt that any of that will actually happen. But I guess any sacrifice is worth making if it gives the appearance of a Brexit benefit? Throughout this whole Brexit mess I would love to be proven wrong and for Britain to enter the sunlit uplands we were promised as a result. But I've seen precious little evidence of, you know, anything good coming of this so far.

 

[geoffk]

While individual consumers can vote with their wallets, as it were, and refuse to buy beef from Australia (assuming it's clearly labelled), it's likely to be served up in schools, hospitals, care homes and prisons if it's significantly cheaper than home-produced beef.

 

[jon0844]

While individual consumers can vote with their wallets, as it were, and refuse to buy beef from Australia (assuming it's clearly labelled), it's likely to be served up in schools, hospitals, care homes and prisons if it's significantly cheaper than home-produced beef.

...and pubs, restaurants, fast food establishments etc.

If it was going to be of the same high quality we expect here, why are people starting to tell us that we don't need such tight regulations?

I suppose the only way for UK farmers to compete would be to remove regulations and quality control. Not really a win for us IMO.

 

[adrock1976]

We also need to ask ourselves why beef needs to be imported from Australia, being as it is one of the furthest places you can get from the UK, and would not be good for the environment due to the number of miles that the product would travel to get here.

 

[JamesT]

We also need to ask ourselves why beef needs to be imported from Australia, being as it is one of the furthest places you can get from the UK, and would not be good for the environment due to the number of miles that the product would travel to get here.

Depending on the specifics, it may actually be better for the environment. I don't have a reference to hand, but I've read that NZ lamb is lower CO2 than Welsh as their climate allows for natural feed all year round. The emissions of a large cargo ship are relatively small when divided by what it's carrying.

 

[najaB]

I don't have a reference to hand, but I've read that NZ lamb is lower CO2 than Welsh as their climate allows for natural feed all year round.

I'm not sure that is true.

The carbon footprints of Welsh beef and sheep farms are amongst the lowest in the world, researchers have confirmed.

Detailed analysis of 20 sheep and beef farms was undertaken, including researching how much carbon they stored through grassland and trees.

It found that beef cattle were responsible for a net 11-16kg of CO2 equivalent emissions per kilo on average.

Previous studies have suggested a global average of around 37kg of CO2 equivalent emissions per kilo.

The Bangor University study showed that sheep and lambs were associated with 10-13kg of CO2 equivalent emissions.

Again, this places Wales towards the lowest end of studies conducted elsewhere in the world.

Welsh sheep farms have 'lowest carbon footprints in world'

The carbon footprints of Welsh beef and sheep farms are amongst the lowest in the world, researchers have confirmed.

www.farminguk.com

 

[JamesT]

I'm not sure that is true.

Welsh sheep farms have 'lowest carbon footprints in world'

The carbon footprints of Welsh beef and sheep farms are amongst the lowest in the world, researchers have confirmed.

www.farminguk.com

British or New Zealand Lamb: Which Is More Sustainable?

With enough lamb produced in the UK to meet demands, why are we still importing and purchasing New Zealand lamb? Which is the more sustainable lamb?

www.ecoandbeyond.co

The research showed that for each tonne of NZ lamb produced and imported, 688kg of CO2 is emitted.

When compared to the 2849.1kg of CO2 emitted in UK production, the most sustainable lamb would appear to be that from NZ.

 

[najaB]

I'd like to see the actual research behind that because the figures don't make sense - a four-fold difference in CO2 emissions doesn't seem plausible. Yes, they might be able to feed on growing grass for more of the year, but AFAIK most UK farmers feed their stock on silage over the winter as opposed to feed from other sources.

 

[JamesT]

I'd like to see the actual research behind that because the figures don't make sense - a four-fold difference in CO2 emissions doesn't seem plausible. Yes, they might be able to feed on growing grass for more of the year, but AFAIK most UK farmers feed their stock on silage over the winter as opposed to feed from other sources.

https://researcharchive.lincoln.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10182/4317/food_miles.pdf Appears to be the referenced paper with tables of inputs for various agricultural goods comparing UK and NZ.

 

[Wynd]

That does look like a challenging claim to accept.

Hill farming inputs are low. Even lowland inputs cant be as high as to offset the transport emissions of shipping halfway round the planet. Even when you divide it by the number of animals.

A lot of hill farmers will put their stock out for months on end, occasionally nip up on a quad/ATV, maybe shear them, drop off some minerals, and that's it. There is a trivial amount of feed, and then transport to the mart.

All farmers are keenly attuned to the fuel they use, or don't use, and as such are deeply aware of their C02 outputs.

 

[class ep-09]

Tell t

Here is a link to the details of the trade deal:
UK AHDB article
As I read the article , Imports of Australian Beef will lose the 20% Tariff and become subject to a rising annual upper quota limits over 10 years.
UK imports 270,000 tonnes of Beef , mainly from the EU and Ireland, current figures are Australian Beef imports are only 2500-3000 tonnes. Over 10 years the Australian beef may account for 170,000 tonnes of imports, the tariff -free quota is for 170,000 tonnes.
Potentially EU beef imports will fall to 100,000 tonnes.
If Australia becomes the dominant player then prices may well fall below EU imported beef
Australian beef is typically a premium product., and Austrailia is an efficient low-cost producer, As a consequence t of the deal we may be enjoying tasty steaks for the price of bland mince.
The peculiar thinking of the EU, who for the purposes of the quota and tariff system, equated the weight of the edible meat with the weight of the animal, was probably to force us to accept the lower quality meat cuts and to force everyone to pay tariff on the unwanted offal

Tell that to UK’s beef producers …

They will be so happy …. Not

 

[REVUpminster]

Tell t

Tell that to UK’s beef producers …

They will be do happy …. Not

Probably the way to meet CO2 emissions.

 

[najaB]

It seems that HMG is doing little to nothing to help UK citizens in the EU maintain their rights. Surprising, I know!

UK nationals cannot automatically retain rights as EU citizens after Brexit, the EU’s top court confirmed on Thursday (15 June).

The appeal was brought by British citizens living in the UK and in a handful of EU member states, challenging the Brexit withdrawal agreement on the grounds that it had deprived them of rights that they had exercised and acquired as EU citizens.

The claimants had demanded that the court annul or partly annul the January 2020 decision by the EU to approve the Withdrawal Agreement.

In a judgement that upheld a previous General Court ruling, the Luxembourg-based European Court of Justice stated that “the loss of the status of citizen of the European Union, and consequently the loss of the rights attached to that status, is an automatic consequence of the sole sovereign decision taken by the United Kingdom to withdraw from the European Union, and not of the withdrawal agreement or the Council’s decision.”

The ruling, which does not come as a surprise, effectively confirms that people from third countries or former member states can only acquire EU citizenship by becoming a citizen of a member country in the bloc.

Brits cannot keep citizenship rights, EU top court confirms | Euractiv

UK nationals cannot automatically retain rights as EU citizens after Brexit, the EU’s top court confirmed on Thursday (15 June).

www.euractiv.com

 

[tomuk]

It seems that HMG is doing little to nothing to help UK citizens in the EU maintain their rights. Surprising, I know!

Brits cannot keep citizenship rights, EU top court confirms | Euractiv

UK nationals cannot automatically retain rights as EU citizens after Brexit, the EU’s top court confirmed on Thursday (15 June).

www.euractiv.com

The agreed retention of rights in in the Withdrawal agreement this is just some niche interest people who want to retain both British and EU citizenship as oppose to joint French\EU or Polish\EU citizenship etc.

 

[Ianigsy]

It was seen as a last-ditch test case because there are various international legal conventions which say that you shouldn’t lose residence rights once you acquire them, although the intent is more to do with ethnic cleansing and preventing statelessness.

This is the part of the whole charade which angers me the most- I had the right to live and work across Europe and it was taken away from me without my consent. I stood in Skipton marketplace offering Remain leaflets on the Saturday before the referendum, so it’s not because I did nothing, and while I could have afforded to take the chance in the the second half of 2016, I didn’t because it was shortly afterwards that my dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer (he’s still with us and a fit 77). I come from a family of Leavers, and while there may be some people in the world who can tell a potentially dying parent that they’re ashamed to be related to them, I’m not one of them. Unfortunately, as the only child of elderly parents, I don’t feel comfortable being more than a couple of hours away from them now.

 

[nw1]

Was wondering whether Brexit had anything to do with reduced scope to turn cookies off on certain websites?

Starting in perhaps the early 2010s and continuing until perhaps around 3 years ago, websites had the option to turn off all unnecessary cookies. Necessary cookies would probably only include those necessary to maintain a login session, so everything else could be seen as unnecessary.

I notice that increasingly, certain non-essential and unnecessary cookies cannot be turned off, particularly in the past 12 months or so.

For example on Flightradar24, you cannot turn off various others such as "match and combine offline data sources", "technically deliver ads or content", and a few others. These do not sound like necessary cookies to me. And it's by no means not the only one. When I first came across this I thought it was just a couple of outliers but it seems to be very frequent now.

I thought that EU cookie law stated that it must be possible to turn off all unnecessary cookies. Have we partially revoked this in the UK?

Or, if the server is based outside of the EU/UK, does EU cookie law not apply, even if it's used within the EU?

I guess the way to be sure is to try it from an EU country, which I will get the opportunity to do in a few weeks.

 

[biko]

For example on Flightradar24, you cannot turn off various others such as "match and combine offline data sources", "technically deliver ads or content", and a few others. These do not sound like necessary cookies to me.

I just tried Flightradar24 in an incognito browser from the Netherlands (so no previous cookies) and I also cannot turn these options off, so apparently it is allowed in the EU in some way.