Stansted Airport station queues and railcard app not working

[Bletchleyite]

The app appears to cache the Railcard - just tried opening mine with both WiFi and data disabled. Opened without any issue.

However I had problems renewing it today - had to try twice and currently have a pending additional payment showing as I got a blank screen after my first attempt to purchase.
The only warning of any problems is on the support page, which isn't good enough. A major problem like this should be mentioned on the homepage.

It caches for a few days then if it can't see the server locks up.

If it allowed one failed contact before locking, it'd be fine.

 

[island]

I haven't read the whole thread, but have a few things to say. Bear in mind that this is not legal advice:

- I'm pretty sure that RoRA only requires you to give your name and address if the railway employee has a reasonable suspicion that you avoided the fare. As the railcard app being down has been ongoing for some time and is well known, I don't think any suspicion of OP having not paid for the fare is reasonable.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. The relevant provision (section 5 (2)) is engaged once a passenger has failed to produce or deliver up a ticket showing his fare is paid and to provide his name and address. In this case, the OP may have produced a ticket, but without the relevant Railcard, the fare that was paid is not "his fare". No "reasonableness" test comes into play. As such, the railway employee was at law entitled to detain him, under the provisions I have stated in my previous posts. (I am not saying that the employee should have done so, or was wise to do so, etc.)

- Pulling on someone on an escalator is a massive health and safety issue. What if OP had fallen down the escalator?

He didn't, so that doesn't come into play.

- The terms and conditions do indeed allow you to forget your railcard once per year (I think) and be able to resolve the issue by giving details. But OP did not forget their railcard, and they should be entitled to retain this "once forget" entitlement for a future journey, as I believe they are contractually entitled to. Indeed, they might have already used it up on a previous journey.

I would consider this a reasonable outcome, but it takes two to tango.

Finally, when app-based railcards first appeared, people like me warned against this sort of issue, but were told by others on the forum that we were luddites. However, the app has regular technical issues, so I'm afraid that I was right with my claim that I don't trust the rail industry to get it right.

I agree. I only use physical railcards and only ever will. As I am over 30 any Railcard I might wish to use is available physically.

Also, how is the railcard app supposed to connect to the internet in an underground station anyway? I can't imagine the phone signal will be great

The official Railcard app having downloaded a Railcard will show it without internet connection for a period of several days, after which it will invite the user to connect to the Internet to revalidate it. Users are encouraged to get into the habit of connecting at the start of the journey.

Other apps that sell/show Railcards may work differently.

 

[duncanp]

I agree. I only use physical railcards and only ever will. As I am over 30 any Railcard I might wish to use is available physically.

At the moment, that is.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if, at some point in the future, physical versions of railcards are no longer available.

 

[bob007]

It's about time that railway staff get off their bloody high horses with this "attitude test" crap. Who the hell do they think that they are to treat passengers like crap and expect said passengers to grovel to them? Get bloody over yourselves.

I will always be polite but if l get that rubbish my response will be to sue the TOC and get my MP involved every damned time. Perhaps if the Secretary of State and TOC Chief Executives get enough crap they will get off their fat asses and do their damned job - including training properly, and if necessary sacking, staff.

Too right. Well said.

They need to pass my customer service test for me to consider paying for their service.

Imagine if we customers on this forum said that constantly? They’d get quite sick of it

 

[AdamWW]

He didn't, so that doesn't come into play.

Where I work Health and Safety is not just concerned with things that actually go wrong. They are just as keen on near misses being reported.

 

[kristiang85]

He didn't, so that doesn't come into play.

If you're saying that, the same should be applied to the assertion "the OP might have been a fare evader" - he wasn't, so that doesn't come into play.

The staff member should have given them the benefit of the doubt, in light of the app problems.

Where I work Health and Safety is not just concerned with things that actually go wrong. They are just as keen on near misses being reported.

Indeed. I've just had the ridiculous scenario of all the shelves removed from behind my office desk "in case an item fell on me". I've sat there 8 years and not once had that problem. So with that kind of attitude pervading health and safety, this very much *is* an incident to report. Not to mention staff have no right to physically touch a customer like that (I emphasise the use of the word customer, not passenger).

 

[island]

If you're saying that, the same should be applied to the assertion "the OP might have been a fare evader" - he wasn't, so that doesn't come into play.

The staff member should have given them the benefit of the doubt, in light of the app problems.

I agree that that is what the staff member should have done, as a matter of customer service and common sense. I have tried to make it abundantly clear that I am saying only that what they did was within the law. Many things that are within the law are not good ideas.

 

[kristiang85]

I agree that that is what the staff member should have done, as a matter of customer service and common sense. I have tried to make it abundantly clear that I am saying only that what they did was within the law. Many things that are within the law are not good ideas.

Sorry, so many replies here I've forgotten who said what - but indeed the laws need to be looked at, absolutely. Especially in this digital age we are being forced to enter.

 

[357]

Maybe this case would be of interest to a wider audience, especially if effectively pulling someone on the escalator seems reckless/potentially dangerous.

If misuse of ticket gates is a bylaw offence then I would hope that this behaviour also is.

 

[Turtle]

Sorry, so many replies here I've forgotten who said what - but indeed the laws need to be looked at, absolutely. Especially in this digital age we are being forced to enter.

Agreed.
I know I sound like a record stuck in a groove(shows my age!) but we're now in an electronic age and the railway must acknowledge this and amend its procedures accordingly.

 

[AlterEgo]

It may help to know that the escalator in question at Stansted is an inclined travelator. Still not clever to pull someone's rucksack on it, especially as the floor is metal and there is a bigger risk of injury, but it isn't an escalator in the traditional sense.

 

[gray1404]

The member of staff had no basis whatsoever for laying hands on you. This does need reporting. They assaulted you at the end of the day and placed you in danger. They also went against their own company policy.

 

[43096]

Finally, when app-based railcards first appeared, people like me warned against this sort of issue, but were told by others on the forum that we were luddites. However, the app has regular technical issues, so I'm afraid that I was right with my claim that I don't trust the rail industry to get it right.

I’d question why it needs to be a separate, proprietary app at all. Why is it not (also) issued as a document, with QR code and photo that can be stored in multiple ways on a phone? In other words much the same way as eTickets are. I can view them in app or I can download as a PDF (ie a document that is of standard format and viewable on multiple apps/platforms) and store on my phone or on cloud service. This is what I do with eTickets - they get saved to Dropbox with “make available offline” ticked to cover me if off mobile network.

Having railcards reliant on a single app with no backup is just dumb. I wouldn’t expect anything else from the railway, though, nor am I surprised that a railcard card app is of dubious reliability.

 

[Bow Fell]

It's about time that railway staff get off their bloody high horses with this "attitude test" crap. Who the hell do they think that they are to treat passengers like crap and expect said passengers to grovel to them? Get bloody over yourselves.

I will always be polite but if l get that rubbish my response will be to sue the TOC and get my MP involved every damned time. Perhaps if the Secretary of State and TOC Chief Executives get enough crap they will get off their fat asses and do their damned job - including training properly, and if necessary sacking, staff.

Or why can’t people just act normal, just speak to people properly with respect, be polite, be courteous, it goes both ways

There always seems to be sort of defence mechanism, which causes emotions to be heightened. And I understand that, but I was always told “behaviour breeds behaviour”.

You see it with some attitudes on here, that if the way they post on here, is the same way they speak to people in reality I’m not surprised there are issues. The “superiority complex” at play, where some people on here think that they are better than some staff because they spend their lives looking up every ticket, every restriction, every loophole. And when the staff aren’t sure (through lack of training or unfortunately incompetence) then it’s straight to treating them like a piece of dirt on their shoe.

I’ve previously worked on the frontline is customer service on the railway and can count on one hand the times when I had an issue, one time that sticks out for me was being threatened to be battered with a golf club. But I’d always gone above and beyond and never really had an issue, I had a really good relationship with passengers at the station, I worked at, they were like friends some of them.

Oppositely I’ve never had an issue as a customer (apart from with an Avanti member of staff at Euston), I’d like to think I know how to speak to people and speak to people how I’d like to be spoken to. I think working in customer service has made me both someone who is good at customer service, but also a better customer, “please, thank you, good morning, see you later, goodbye” go a long way.

 

[156421]

I don't see how this argument holds. If the railcard app stopped working mid-journey and a ticket inspection then took place, are you saying that I have suddenly committed a byelaw offence?

If I have taken the steps I am expected to take in order to show my railcard, I believe I have fulfilled my obligation to show a railcard and the fact that the app does not show what it usually shows is irrelevant.

All could be overcome with a real physical card... unless you're on a 26-30 in which case you are discriminated against in this aspect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2023 ==

At the moment, that is.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if, at some point in the future, physical versions of railcards are no longer available.

Agreed. 26-30 is the thin end of the wedge.

 

[AdamWW]

I’d like to think I know how to speak to people and speak to people how I’d like to be spoken to. I think working in customer service has made me both someone who is good at customer service, but also a better customer, “please, thank you, good morning, see you later, goodbye” go a long way.

Indeed - courtesy costs nothing and when you see the same person on the gateline every day why not say hello to them rather than treating them as part of the furniture?

You see it with some attitudes on here, that if the way they post on here, is the same way they speak to people in reality I’m not surprised there are issues. The “superiority complex” at play, where some people on here think that they are better than some staff because they spend their lives looking up every ticket, every restriction, every loophole. And when the staff aren’t sure (through lack of training or unfortunately incompetence) then it’s straight to treating them like a piece of dirt on their shoe.

Maybe I have a selective memory but the complaints on here that I recall aren't about staff who aren't sure, it's the ones who are absolutely sure of themselves even though they are wrong that cause the problem. And likewise (perhaps I'm being selective again) I remember more posts about staff having trouble with basic ticketing rules (like being able to break a journey, use an off-peak ticket in accordance with its restriction code, or use a flexible ticket on a different itinerary to the booked one) than obscure ones. (Unless you think the examples I gave are obscure, I suppose).

 

[fandroid]

Or why can’t people just act normal, just speak to people properly with respect, be polite, be courteous, it goes both ways

There always seems to be sort of defence mechanism, which causes emotions to be heightened. And I understand that, but I was always told “behaviour breeds behaviour”.

You see it with some attitudes on here, that if the way they post on here, is the same way they speak to people in reality I’m not surprised there are issues. The “superiority complex” at play, where some people on here think that they are better than some staff because they spend their lives looking up every ticket, every restriction, every loophole. And when the staff aren’t sure (through lack of training or unfortunately incompetence) then it’s straight to treating them like a piece of dirt on their shoe.

I’ve previously worked on the frontline is customer service on the railway and can count on one hand the times when I had an issue, one time that sticks out for me was being threatened to be battered with a golf club. But I’d always gone above and beyond and never really had an issue, I had a really good relationship with passengers at the station, I worked at, they were like friends some of them.

Oppositely I’ve never had an issue as a customer (a think I know how to speak to people and speak to people how I’d like to be spoken to. I think working in customer service has made me both someone who is good at customer service, but also a better customer, “please, thank you, good morning, see you later, goodbye” go a long way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2023 ==

I don't disagree with any of this, but let's go back to the the OP's original post. He indicates that he had to queue for twenty minutes. To impose that on passengers is downright disgraceful. It's being done entirely for the TOC's benefit, and potentially jeopardising the passengers' next stage of travel. That the OP got rather short tempered at the gate is no surprise whatsoever. I would have been steaming mad at this selfish behaviour.

 

[All Line Rover]

The member of staff had no basis whatsoever for laying hands on you. This does need reporting. They assaulted you at the end of the day and placed you in danger. They also went against their own company policy.

I'm less concerned with the individual staff member's behaviour and more concerned with general rail industry policy, regarding both the Stansted Airport setup and passengers' supposed "responsibility" for an app created by the rail industry. The individual staff member isn't important enough to care about, I can let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't disagree with any of this, but let's go back to the the OP's original post. He indicates that he had to queue for twenty minutes. To impose that on passengers is downright disgraceful. It's being done entirely for the TOC's benefit, and potentially jeopardising the passengers' next stage of travel. That the OP got rather short tempered at the gate is no surprise whatsoever. I would have been steaming mad at this selfish behaviour.

Indeed.

The Stansted Express is specifically marketed on its speed and convenience of arriving straight into the terminal. (And, ironically, as involving "no queuing", on the grounds that you can buy an e-ticket).

Even if such long waits are unusual I don't think it lets them off the hook - they always have the option of just throwing open the gates.

I find it irritating to have to queue for a minute or so to get out of a station. I wouldn't ever expect something like this to happen particularly at an airport and I doubt I'd be feeling very friendly towards the staff despite knowing that they're probably just doing what they're told.

 

[jon81uk]

At other stations, staff frequently open the barriers and wave people through if a crowd is building up. I have always assumed there was a safety aspect to this. Don't see why someone on a manual line could not similarly wave people through.

I expect they don't want to just wave people through as they need to check tickets. Stansted is outside the contactless area but most passengers will start their journey within the contactless zones, so if people tap in and don't have a valid ticket from Greater Anglia then TfL might get income from the incomplete journey but Greater Anglia get nothing.

 

[duncanp]

I expect they don't want to just wave people through as they need to check tickets. Stansted is outside the contactless area but most passengers will start their journey within the contactless zones, so if people tap in and don't have a valid ticket from Greater Anglia then TfL might get income from the incomplete journey but Greater Anglia get nothing.

Is there any reason why Stansted Airport Station doesn't have, or can't have, ticket gates just like any other station?

 

[sheff1]

Indeed.

The Stansted Express is specifically marketed on its speed and convenience of arriving straight into the terminal. (And, ironically, as involving "no queuing", on the grounds that you can buy an e-ticket).

More from Stansted Express:

"make the most of your travel time, because you’ve got more important places to be than stuck in traffic."
Stuck in the queue at the airport.

"98.07% of our trains reach their destination within 5 mins of the schedule, so you can arrive cool, calm, and collected"
But then have to wait 20 mins to leave the station before you can continue to your destination neither cool, calm nor collected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2023 ==

I expect they don't want to just wave people through as they need to check tickets. Stansted is outside the contactless area but most passengers will start their journey within the contactless zones, so if people tap in and don't have a valid ticket from Greater Anglia then TfL might get income from the incomplete journey but Greater Anglia get nothing.

So why not check tickets on the train ?

 

[AdamWW]

More from Stansted Express:

"make the most of your travel time, because you’ve got more important places to be than stuck in traffic."
Stuck in the queue at the airport.

"98.07% of our trains reach their destination within 5 mins of the schedule, so you can arrive cool, calm, and collected"
But then have to wait 20 mins to leave the station before you can continue to your destination neither cool, calm nor collected.

Quite.

I know that in the UK if you need to buy a ticket you have to arrive an unspecified time before your train leaves and if you guess wrong it's tough, but I didn't know you might also have to allow for an unknown time to get out of the station at the far end...

 

[fandroid]

There are plenty of solutions for Greater Anglia (GA) that don't involve seriously inconveniencing passengers. The obvious one is to get TfL to extend contactless to the airport and the stations between there and the last contactless station out Liverpool Street. At the same time sort out the gateline with automatic gates set up to read every sort of ticket available. The more immediate one is to put ticket checking staff on the trains, starting with Stansted Express. Then have a local rule about the maximum length of queue (put up a marker board that the staff can see!) allowed to develop before opening the gates.

Another solution is to make use of every exit from the platform and put a marshall ("customer care agent"!) there to direct passengers to the alternatives.

I hope someone from GA management is reading this thread and taking it seriously.

 

[AdamWW]

There are plenty of solutions for Greater Anglia (GA) that don't involve seriously inconveniencing passengers. The obvious one is to get TfL to extend contactless to the airport and the stations between there and the last contactless station out Liverpool Street. At the same time sort out the gateline with automatic gates set up to read every sort of ticket available. The more immediate one is to put ticket checking staff on the trains, starting with Stansted Express. Then have a local rule about the maximum length of queue (put up a marker board that the staff can see!) allowed to develop before opening the gates.

Another solution is to make use of every exit from the platform and put a marshall ("customer care agent"!) there to direct passengers to the alternatives.

I hope someone from GA management is reading this thread and taking it seriously.

Or at the very least make it very clear to intending passengers that they should factor a long delay qeueing to get out of the station into their plans.

Doesn't quite go along with the messaging about how convenient it all is though.

 

[Ediswan]

More from Stansted Express:

"make the most of your travel time, because you’ve got more important places to be than stuck in traffic."
Stuck in the queue at the airport.

"98.07% of our trains reach their destination within 5 mins of the schedule, so you can arrive cool, calm, and collected"
But then have to wait 20 mins to leave the station before you can continue to your destination neither cool, calm nor collected.

Might the Advertising Standards Authority be interested ? They have just upheld a complaint against Anglian Water for omitting material information.

 

[bob007]

Or why can’t people just act normal, just speak to people properly with respect, be polite, be courteous, it goes both ways

There always seems to be sort of defence mechanism, which causes emotions to be heightened. And I understand that, but I was always told “behaviour breeds behaviour”.

This reminds me of an ex who would always change the subject and moan about the time I chose to raise an issue, or the tone, or the loudness of my voice, or the words I used, or the location … anything to avoid the actual problem I was addressing. Nothing was her fault.

Why can’t we cancel trains, charge a fortune, prosecute people, remove staff, have crap training, reduce customer service, delay people, generally make rail travel miserable AND have passengers ignore all of that and be grateful for the crap service and never let their emotions get the better of them and thank us for our service smh

You can pretend all you like that the government is serving up a gold plated railway but it simply isn’t true. Crap timetables, cancellations, delays, maintenance issues, badly trained staff, inconvenience etc. To expect polite, respectful and courteous people at all times in these conditions is frankly absurd

 

[Bow Fell]

This reminds me of an ex who would always change the subject and moan about the time I chose to raise an issue, or the tone, or the loudness of my voice, or the words I used, or the location … anything to avoid the actual problem I was addressing. Nothing was her fault.

Why can’t we cancel trains, charge a fortune, prosecute people, remove staff, have crap training, reduce customer service, delay people, generally make rail travel miserable AND have passengers ignore all of that and be grateful for the crap service and never let their emotions get the better of them and thank us for our service smh

Where did I say of that?! I think you’ve taken my post entirely out of context.

I think the state of the railway is shocking, it’s a lot worse then it was when I started over 10 years ago. If you think I’ve got anything remotely positive to say about this government and the railway or this government in general, you’re in for a shock.

Morale where I work has been poor for a long time.

Let’s not get this confused with good / bad customer service though, if you had bothered to read what I was saying, I was talking from a passenger perspective too. Good manners, politeness, costs nothing on either side.

Crap timetables, cancellations, delays, maintenance issues, badly trained staff, inconvenience etc. To expect polite, respectful and courteous people at all times in these conditions is frankly absurd

Is it, really?! Maybe I’m just too laid back but having been on the frontline, where you are the face of the railway, you do bear the brunt of passengers frustrations. If you are suggesting that I think passengers should be grateful for whatever “service” they get, then you’re wrong.

But does that mean because of those issues, I’m not entitled to be spoken to or treated like a human being? If people just see a uniform or someone in “authority” and immediately start getting defensive or irate that’s says more about them.

Just be normal, speak to me like you would any other person and we’ll get along just fine.

 

[MikeWh]

The obvious one is to get TfL to extend contactless to the airport and the stations between there and the last contactless station out Liverpool Street.

The lines between Broxbourne and Stansted Airport or Cambridge are indeed included in the current Project Oval work. The DfT are being very coy as to when each extension is intended to happen. That line is not on the list of stations that TfL inadvertantly let slip in a FOI request relating to problems caused at the March fare revision. When asked specifically about Project Oval progress via FOI, TfL they say that the DfT are controlling the rollout and the messaging and they won't divulge details.

 

[Wolfie]

Or why can’t people just act normal, just speak to people properly with respect, be polite, be courteous, it goes both ways

There always seems to be sort of defence mechanism, which causes emotions to be heightened. And I understand that, but I was always told “behaviour breeds behaviour”.

You see it with some attitudes on here, that if the way they post on here, is the same way they speak to people in reality I’m not surprised there are issues. The “superiority complex” at play, where some people on here think that they are better than some staff because they spend their lives looking up every ticket, every restriction, every loophole. And when the staff aren’t sure (through lack of training or unfortunately incompetence) then it’s straight to treating them like a piece of dirt on their shoe.

I’ve previously worked on the frontline is customer service on the railway and can count on one hand the times when I had an issue, one time that sticks out for me was being threatened to be battered with a golf club. But I’d always gone above and beyond and never really had an issue, I had a really good relationship with passengers at the station, I worked at, they were like friends some of them.

Oppositely I’ve never had an issue as a customer (apart from with an Avanti member of staff at Euston), I’d like to think I know how to speak to people and speak to people how I’d like to be spoken to. I think working in customer service has made me both someone who is good at customer service, but also a better customer, “please, thank you, good morning, see you later, goodbye” go a long way.

That is an excellent post. Treating others as you would want to be treated yourself is always a good starting point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2023 ==

Really? Good luck with that

Thirty plus years working in Whitehall rather helps knowing how to play the system....