Cuts to bus services in 011

[Tom B]

There is an exception to the 56-day rule for a) replacement of a withdrawn service or b) to meet any pressing requirement for public transport - so there should be no delay.

 

[jon0844]

I hope so. My councillor did say that they hoped it could be rushed through, and we'll know come Monday!

 

[anthony263]

Where did you ehar that? It hasn't reached the local rag yet!

I hope the Gower Explorer can be saved, although First only seem interested in holiday time services.

The news was told to staff by the management in the last few days. Some of the gower explorer services are operated commercially, these being service 118 & 116 , both of which idelaly should be worked by double deckers at times especially during the summer.

I know that SWT (Neath) have been interested in some of the veolia services. First have taken over the contracts which Veolia dropped in the last month or so in the ammanford area.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks Anthony. I had no idea that the 118 and 116 buses were viable!

 

[Deerfold]

Late buses are extended to go via Hatfield University campus, presumably to encourage more usage (but most people boarding will obviously be students who travel free anyway).

Or possibly as that's where a Uno depot is. I think the students get discounted but not free travel.

 

[causton]

Or possibly as that's where a Uno depot is. I think the students get discounted but not free travel.

Uno only have one depot, and it is in the Business Park. This is about a 7/8 minute dead run to the university though, and many Uno routes start/finish there.

To jonmorris0844 -- which route is this?

Edit: never mind - I think I know which route you are thinking about anyway. Plus, the run to the campus is in the middle of the journey before it returns to the town centre and railway station anyway. I think it's good as in the evenings I can get to the Galleria now (near where I live) from the railway station - not as quick as some other services, but much quicker than walking and more frequent than other sunday evening buses.

 

[Deerfold]

Uno only have one depot, and it is in the Business Park. This is about a 7/8 minute dead run to the university though, and many Uno routes start/finish there.

To jonmorris0844 -- which route is this?

OK, not exactly at the University, but very near it. I know they're extending some of the 700s and the evening 101s that they've won contracts for, all from Stevenage but I don't think these are jonmorris0844's services.

 

[HST Power]

Or possibly as that's where a Uno depot is. I think the students get discounted but not free travel.

You get a fair discount. First Capital Connect give you 52 weeks for the price of 40 if you go by train, and are between 16 and 18 years old (you have to be making the journey at least three times a week)

 

[Deerfold]

You get a fair discount. First Capital Connect give you 52 weeks for the price of 40 if you go by train, and are between 16 and 18 years old (you have to be making the journey at least three times a week)

As far as I knew we were talking about University Students on Uno buses.

 

[jon0844]

Or possibly as that's where a Uno depot is. I think the students get discounted but not free travel.

I know where the depot is - I live about a 3 minute walk from it!

The bus (607) doesn't run to the main University site, or even the de Havilland campus (it runs close, but not close enough) but it will on late evenings now - taking in that campus and the Galleria, then back to the station. I am sure there are other buses that will get to the Galleria quicker, but I don't know if they're still running.

Now if you don't mind walking down some dark, dingy roads, you can get off the 607 along Lemsford Road and walk through to the Galleria via a housing estate a lot quicker than the bus will get you there.

Uno is run, albeit as a separate company, primarily for students - but is open to 'normals' too and in the last 6-7 years has made a real effort to promote that fact, especially when it started bidding (and winning) tenders to run routes from other operators.

 

[Deerfold]

I know where the depot is - I live about a 3 minute walk from it!

The bus (607) doesn't run to the main University site, or even the de Havilland campus (it runs close, but not close enough) but it will on late evenings now - taking in that campus and the Galleria, then back to the station. I am sure there are other buses that will get to the Galleria quicker, but I don't know if they're still running.

Now if you don't mind walking down some dark, dingy roads, you can get off the 607 along Lemsford Road and walk through to the Galleria via a housing estate a lot quicker than the bus will get you there.

Uno is run, albeit as a separate company, primarily for students - but is open to 'normals' too and in the last 6-7 years has made a real effort to promote that fact, especially when it started bidding (and winning) tenders to run routes from other operators.

That'd be why they changed their name from the original Universitybus - they started out providing links that didn't exist to get students to the University and then found they could make money out of this too. They do provide some admirably late links (though some only run University Terms).

http://www.intalink.org.uk/Timetables/tt/607_A_27-03-11.pdf looks to be being advertised with the changes.

University of Hertfordshire students pay £2.50 or £3.50 for a day ticket compared with a public day ticket price of £5.00 with similar discounts on single fares.

 

[anthony263]

Thanks Anthony. I had no idea that the 118 and 116 buses were viable!

Service 118 & 116 both have had a increase in passenger numbers since they were increased to hourly and some journies should be operated by double deckers particulary during the summer season., i know Veolia have extended some of the evening journies on service 25/27 Swansea- Blaen-Y-Maes/Penlan which they operate under contract to Gowerton & Penclawdd to cover for the loss of the evening journies on service 116

They have taken on the evening journeys on service 118 commercially and are using smaller vehicles and passengers do seem to be holding up after veolia made an appeal to local people.

 

[jon0844]

The Intalink timetable is out of date already, as Uno did make some changes at the last minute (presumably to more than just my own bus).

What's odd is that Uno hasn't said anything on its own website, although its provision of information on there is about as good as the info on FCC's Twitter feed. Very much a case of doing it if there's time or a member of staff available to even do it.

 

[Deerfold]

The Intalink timetable is out of date already, as Uno did make some changes at the last minute (presumably to more than just my own bus).

Sadly it does seem to have gone downhill. At least HCC is still subsidising some routes...

 

[jon0844]

They're subsidising some routes, but it seems that they're making multiple routes merge into one.

One surprise is that the Uno run 600/650, which runs to the business park from the station during peak hours is being cut in frequency. This is a bus where there's usually a queue to board and buses can have people standing. AFAIK this isn't subsidised, but I did learn that there's also funding from the developers of the business park - and that's running out. Someone suggested Uno only ran a number of buses on certain routes around the business park/university in order to tap into this money.

 

[Greenback]

Service 118 & 116 both have had a increase in passenger numbers since they were increased to hourly and some journies should be operated by double deckers particulary during the summer season., i know Veolia have extended some of the evening journies on service 25/27 Swansea- Blaen-Y-Maes/Penlan which they operate under contract to Gowerton & Penclawdd to cover for the loss of the evening journies on service 116

They have taken on the evening journeys on service 118 commercially and are using smaller vehicles and passengers do seem to be holding up after veolia made an appeal to local people.

They have been quite busy with day trippers when I have used those buses, but as that is normally in the Summer I wasn't really surprised! The 1010 118 to Rhossili always seems to load well, but I;ve often wondered how much use the locals make of the services to go shopping and such like in the opposite direction to my travels!

 

[causton]

They're subsidising some routes, but it seems that they're making multiple routes merge into one.

One surprise is that the Uno run 600/650, which runs to the business park from the station during peak hours is being cut in frequency. This is a bus where there's usually a queue to board and buses can have people standing. AFAIK this isn't subsidised, but I did learn that there's also funding from the developers of the business park - and that's running out. Someone suggested Uno only ran a number of buses on certain routes around the business park/university in order to tap into this money.

The last Intalink magazine (ever!) says it is HCC funded, so presumably that is a reason as well!

 

[jon0844]

I believe it's a 'Section 106 grant' or something for services on and around the new business park, and this money is running out - hence the need to make cuts.

The new 607 at peak times is/was a disaster. My bus arrived 7-8 minutes late this morning and arrived 17 minutes late at the station (you can safely say I missed my train!). It's now far too busy, has to make too many stops to pick up and set down, wait at a new set of traffic lights that are on a fixed phase and take ages, and all on the same tiny bus! I'm also going to risk offending people (but it's true) by adding that part of the problem with the new route tagged on is that the people boarding can't all speak English and it's incredibly frustrating seeing them take so much time to ask for a ticket and then find the money to pay, especially as they're only going to the town centre and are therefore in no rush at all. Everyone else is going to get a train! [rant over - I feel better now!]

The driver pointed out that he'd made over £100 (plus passes) on the first two runs, so I am really wondering why they combined two routes in the morning rush hour. If a bus that runs every 30 minutes is 17 minutes late after two runs, it means the timetable is out of the window. The driver (after a change) who arrived late had to go straight back out, so would have been even later back the next time.

I think Uno needs to reconsider what it has done!

 

[142094]

Section 106 is developer contributions written into a plannign agreement. Something which should be used a lot more IMO.

 

[jon0844]

The problem is that it isn't a never ending pot of money, and it's apparently running out. Our estate still doesn't have fully working street lights, road signs and so on - and the council will not adopt the roads until it's all done.

The developers obviously moved away years ago, so they're not really bothered in the slightest.

 

[causton]

I'm also going to risk offending people (but it's true) by adding that part of the problem with the new route tagged on is that the people boarding can't all speak English and it's incredibly frustrating seeing them take so much time to ask for a ticket and then find the money to pay, especially as they're only going to the town centre and are therefore in no rush at all. Everyone else is going to get a train! [rant over - I feel better now!]

I know the exact problem you describe - and without wanting to offend anyone either, this is a major problem with bus travel in Hatfield and the surrounding area (and probably a lot of other places as well). Not just people who don't understand English, but people who don't understand anything to do with tickets and prices. There needs to be a smartcard like Oyster so people just get on, touch in, and then (because Uno would never have a flat fare system) touch out when they leave. (If the money was there...)

I don't get why the 607 has the trouble it does with tickets, it has one fare stage! I got on it one Sunday and asked for my child single, the driver responded "Where to?" I replied with the town centre and got a Hatfield Station - Hatfield Station ticket anyway. Pah!

There seemed to be major confusion this morning, someone getting off a bus at the Galleria end of College Lane and telling me they were destined for Welham Green and ended up in London Colney thanks to the 636, Sullivan's new route ("Do you go to Parkhouse Bus Station? I've been waiting bloody ages for a bus to it!" "I dunno mate, I've only done this route a day") and having just seen a 614 branded double decker go past my house on the 602, I'm convinced that Uno didn't really plan today very well.

...and that was before I got to St Albans, with the 'new' Pink buses on routes that weren't in the Pink scheme and the old Darts on the Pink routes. Arriva looked pretty bad as well, I got there about 9:30 and three buses on the 300/301 route turned up at once from Hemel Hempstead!

 

[jon0844]

The 600 this evening was a 'Pink' Optare Solo, which I presume has been refurbished as it's a 55 plate and far more modern inside than the 58 bus on our route. I do think they've really messed up their stock, as the Pink bus was running through our estate over the weekend despite being destined for St Albans.

Drivers have already told me that it's going to be a nightmare doing the new Stansted to London bus, as they'll have nobody to deal with breakdowns. If that bus breaks down, everyone will be stranded for ages! The upside, for Uno at least, is that no drivers have been laid off - but they're going to be working their a**ses off doing these extended routes, with timings that are totally pie in the sky. Thank God railway planners aren't able to make such huge mistakes!

In fact, Uno has totally forgotten about recovery time. They've now got a service that takes longer to do the journey than the time alloted, so for ever 2-3 runs, one service is effectively cancelled/doesn't run! I think the 607 either needs to revert back to the 608 and 609 separately, or they have to man the peak services with two buses - giving the drivers a little break time, and allowing the service to be allocated more time. Tonight it seemed to be running to time, just, so it's really just the peak (affected not just by more usage, but by the commuter parking that narrows the key roads and makes the bus stop to give way all the time - the council has recently brought in permits, forcing drivers to park on the main roads).

Apologies to anyone not from around here who probably doesn't care for such detail!

 

[causton]

You're right, there is a serious lack of planning in regards to extra timing. For example, the 602 on a Sunday, after travelling through the busy congested streets of St Albans, and all the way to Watford, gets a measly 10 minutes recovery time. Hardly enough time for the driver to stop to breathe on a good day, let alone most days where the driver must end up arriving after they're due to leave!

And the thought of breakdowns never crossed my mind... nor theirs it seems! I have seen a 602 break down just outside my house before and despite being about 10 minutes from the garage, it took 35 minutes to get a bus out (of course, just before the next 602 came, with both ending up being very late!)

Plus I think the vehicle choice is purely up to the driver and their mood! Catching the 615 for three consecutive weeks, the same driver chose one of the Pink buses, one of the 601 double deckers, and a 603 branded Wright!

To anyone enthralled by my description of Uno services, I took a few pictures this morning, you can see them on my flickr page

 

[anthony263]

Section 106 is developer contributions written into a plannign agreement. Something which should be used a lot more IMO.

I know that M&S at Culverhouse cross in Cardiff had to subsidise a bus link between Culverhouse Cross & Barry. I know that M&S did try to get out of that clause but the council kept the pressue on them.

 

[bb21]

The cuts are starting to be felt here in Leicester which started this Monday, with both Arriva and First Citybus accouncing their revised schedules. Pretty big cuts for some rural routes.

 

[Deerfold]

The cuts are starting to be felt here in Leicester which started this Monday, with both Arriva and First Citybus accouncing their revised schedules. Pretty big cuts for some rural routes.

I'm quite surprised by First - although they're shedding the odd bus or two here and there as they usually do when thy update timetables there's a dozen or so routes in West Yorkshire seeing an increase in Sunday daytime frequency (most of them from 2bph to 3 bph).

Of course North Yorkshire is a nightmare with almost all subsidies for evenings and Sundays withdrawn. The Dales & Bowland Community Interest Company is plugging a few gaps and there's a few services (such as Harrogate to LBIA) which companies are having a go without subsidy. Good luck to them. My only worry is if they work really hard and make a success of it the council may use it as an excuse for further cuts.

 

[bb21]

I'm quite surprised by First - although they're shedding the odd bus or two here and there as they usually do when thy update timetables there's a dozen or so routes in West Yorkshire seeing an increase in Sunday daytime frequency (most of them from 2bph to 3 bph).

Of course North Yorkshire is a nightmare with almost all subsidies for evenings and Sundays withdrawn. The Dales & Bowland Community Interest Company is plugging a few gaps and there's a few services (such as Harrogate to LBIA) which companies are having a go without subsidy. Good luck to them. My only worry is if they work really hard and make a success of it the council may use it as an excuse for further cuts.

Just had a good look at the details of First's bus revision a few minutes ago (previously I only read a summary) and I am absolutely SHOCKED.

Most routes now have last bus cut back to between 1900 and 2100, where previously they were mostly after 2300. Sunday cull was like a blood-bath, apart from 3 or 4 core routes. Worse of all, many of them weren't even council-funded. Sure Arriva lost some services too, mainly funded, but it was nothing compared to First's., and Arriva didn't cut back on last buses, especially on city routes.

I am sensing some form of retreat for First in Leicester, especially now that they've given up on evening journeys on the monopoly route 22. Bad times indeed. Maybe we'll see a Centrebus-Arriva stand-off in the future?

 

[jon0844]

I didn't even try and take the bus this morning, as I had a meeting to get to early and couldn't afford to be late. At the station was the bus arriving that I'd have been trying to get and it was near empty - so it seems others have decided to give up too.

The next step will be for the bus operator to claim there's no demand and axe it completely - but luckily some people within the council are aware of it and seeking to get this farcical situation resolved before the bus loses all its passengers.

I heard a driver explaining why the newly combined service has been such a disaster in the morning. Originally it was run as two separate routes with an 8 minute gap for recovery purposes, and to give the driver a break. Now, with it doing both routes as one, there's just 3 minutes at the end.

It seems the 'timetable person' set the new timings by driving the new route in the daytime, when it was quiet, and didn't allow anywhere near enough time for picking up or setting down! Presumably that showed 'ample' time to recover, as if I was to drive during the day (with no rush hour traffic or school kids being dropped off) I could do it in about 10 minutes or less. Buses generally stop along the way!

If true, and it would certainly seem to be given how much it overruns on every run, I do wonder how they can claim to be a proper bus company when making such a schoolboy error.

 

[bb21]

It seems the 'timetable person' set the new timings by driving the new route in the daytime, when it was quiet, and didn't allow anywhere near enough time for picking up or setting down! Presumably that showed 'ample' time to recover, as if I was to drive during the day (with no rush hour traffic or school kids being dropped off) I could do it in about 10 minutes or less. Buses generally stop along the way!

Cost cutting I'm afraid. At the last major service revision in Leicester Arriva joined up four routes in the evening to interwork, instead of two schedules of two routes interworking, this coupled with cutting down turnaround time in town (from an average of over 15 minutes to around 8) and cutting down on driver's break mid-shift, they managed to save the requirement of one bus whilst still maintaining the frequency on all four routes. Net result? More frequent late running because there is no longer sufficient recovery time to make up for lost minutes as these are very well used services. The other problem with interworking is that problems on one route can affect performance on all these other routes, which is one of the reasons why many operators tend to prefer dedicated drivers for routes

 

[jon0844]

I know it's cost cutting, and we had to have the routes combined to keep them at all - but you mention a cut from 15 minutes to 8 for a turnaround. Who could ever think you could manage with just 3 minutes?!

In the morning and evening peak, they'll either need to run two buses or switch to an hourly service - which would be pretty stupid. Imagine running the busiest buses every hour, and the lightly loaded ones every 30 minutes because they are the only ones that can keep to time!