Voyager experience not as bad as expected

[Energy]

Can’t believe he was serious about 3+2 on trains he knew would be travelling the longest distances of any in the UK. I guess he didn’t get to be extremely wealthy without exploiting a few people on the way!

The majority of journeys on XC are not end to end. Reading to Birmingham is a common journey and is only 1h30, plenty would take a reduced 3+2 fare on that service (if the train was a bit wider).

 

[Ayman Ilham]

150s on long distance trains... Sounds like exactly the way forward. Maybe when they are displaced from Northern and TfW they can go to XC

At least the ex TfW (as they then will be) have 2+2.

TfW already put them on journeys as long as 6 hours (Manchester to Milford Haven) and it's become more frequent while most of the 175s are out of action and the 197s & Mk4 sets are taking their time to be ready for service on Welsh Marches services (particularly Manchester to South Wales)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The majority of journeys on XC are not end to end. Reading to Birmingham is a common journey and is only 1h30, plenty would take a reduced 3+2 fare on that service (if the train was a bit wider).

I fail, in any case, to see how it's exploitation. It's offering a heavily discounted fare in return for a less comfortable travelling experience. You can buy it or not buy it, up to you. It'd be aimed to compete with coaches, which tend to have narrower seats than trains due to being about 30cm narrower than trains.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I think Voyagers are in that class of trains which are perfectly fine as long as they aren't too busy.

Unfortunately their capacity and the routes they travel on may mean they are liable to be too busy rather more than a lot of other trains.

100% agree with you there! I've personally never had a problem with Voyagers, travelling mostly on XC variants (Virgin for some North Wales journeys) for a variety of journeys (mostly around an hour or two in length such as Sheffield to Leeds, York to Durham and Manchester to Wolverhampton) with the longest being 4 hours from Manchester Piccadilly to Winchester, and I find the ride rather relaxing with the mellow diesel engine sounds and cosy feel of the interior design. I was hoping that XC would finally sort out their capacity problem if all the Avanti Voyagers were reunited with the rest of the fleet there when the 805/807 units come in, but it seems the DfT have other plans leasing-wise as it appears half of them are planned to go to Grand Central to replace the notoriously unreliable 180s, so it seems only 10 out of the 20 would eventually become available for XC. One thing I have noticed with the XC units on a recent trip to the West Midlands is how empty the first class section was, despite taking up a full carriage so a 4-car unit is effectively 3-car unit unless first class became declassified. I was thinking, maybe if they halve the first class section (given not many people use it in the first place) to make room for more standard class seats, that would help a bit capacity-wise? That's gonna be an interesting discussion for the speculative forum, if it hasn't already been done.

 

[The exile]

I think Voyagers are in that class of trains which are perfectly fine as long as they aren't too busy.

Unfortunately their capacity and the routes they travel on may mean they are liable to be too busy rather more than a lot of other trains.

Exactly that - the equivalent journeys at holiday times in Mk Is and IIs could be pretty purgatorial as well. If they were electric so with less of the underfloor vibration and noise that would be even better.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Exactly that - the equivalent journeys at holiday times in Mk Is and IIs could be pretty purgatorial as well. If they were electric so with less of the underfloor vibration and noise that would be even better.

Am I the only one who actually like the engine sound of the Voyagers? The mellow bass tones are actually quite relaxing to me. At least it ain't proper in-your-face like the old Sprinters, which give my wife a headache as she travels on 150/156 units regularly to get to college.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I the only one who actually like the engine sound of the Voyagers? The mellow bass tones are actually quite relaxing to me. At least it ain't proper in-your-face like the old Sprinters, which give my wife a headache as she travels on 150/156 units regularly to get to college.

Other than when starting out it's more of a low rumble which isn't much different from track noise on Mk1s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can’t believe he was serious about 3+2 on trains he knew would be travelling the longest distances of any in the UK. I guess he didn’t get to be extremely wealthy without exploiting a few people on the way!

That is a very cynical, somewhat bitter way of referring to a highly hands-on, rather inspirational entrepreneur, don't you think?

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Am I the only one who actually like the engine sound of the Voyagers? The mellow bass tones are actually quite relaxing to me. At least it ain't proper in-your-face like the old Sprinters, which give my wife a headache as she travels on 150/156 units regularly to get to college.

Agreed. Sprinters sound like five or six maracas being loudly shaken in your ear, just deeper in pitch and accompanied by shaking.

 

[baker_06]

As a train manager I always prefer to work voyagers over 390's. Air con is always working, TMS & seat reservations are far more reliable.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was thinking, maybe if they halve the first class section (given not many people use it in the first place) to make room for more standard class seats, that would help a bit capacity-wise? That's gonna be an interesting discussion for the speculative forum, if it hasn't already been done.

With respect, that's a ridiculous idea if they are to continue working as single units. On evening peak services I've actually had to stand with a first class ticket between Reading and Basingstoke as it is.

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As a train manager I always prefer to work voyagers over 390's. Air con is always working, TMS & seat reservations are far more reliable.

It's interesting you say that, as I once spoke to a driver at Llandudno Junction who said he far preferred driving 390s. Perhaps one is more preferable for TMs, and the other for drivers, although on a 390 the TM gets an office and control over closing the doors.

 

[baker_06]

With respect, that's a ridiculous idea if they are to continue working as single units. On evening peak services I've actually had to stand with a first class ticket between Reading and Basingstoke as it is.

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It's interesting you say that, as I once spoke to a driver at Llandudno Junction who said he far preferred driving 390s. Perhaps one is more preferable for TMs, and the other for drivers, although on a 390 the TM gets an office and control over closing the doors.

Agreed. The only downside is what you mentioned, the 'office' on voyagers feels like you're sat in a cupboard with no windows and not having complete door close control has its issues.

When the 805/807's are introduced they will also have no 'office' for the TM. We will however have full door close control.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. The only downside is what you mentioned, the 'office' on voyagers feels like you're sat in a cupboard with no windows and not having complete door close control has its issues.

When the 805/807's are introduced they will also have no 'office' for the TM. We will however have full door close control.

I always thought the 10-bell thing on Voyagers a bit odd. Was DOO the original plan perhaps?

I'm surprised to read that the reservations are more reliable on Voyagers - that's the opposite of my personal experience, but maybe I'm just unlucky!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I always thought the 10-bell thing on Voyagers a bit odd. Was DOO the original plan perhaps?

I'm surprised to read that the reservations are more reliable on Voyagers - that's the opposite of my personal experience, but maybe I'm just unlucky!

Yes, as I was saying the other day the Pendolino reservation system is not only older/more basic and thus harder to read, but it also has a habit of refreshing to say “Available if not occupied” at random points of the journey.

 

[nw1]

Because they wouldn't fit. Voyagers are too narrow to do it.

3+2 was the plan, by the way, not 3+3.

Would be rather like running XC services in the late 20th century using VEPs hauled by 33s!

Interesting from an enthusiast POV but probably not so good for the casual passenger for such long distances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, as I was saying the other day the Pendolino reservation system is not only older/more basic and thus harder to read

It's newer. The Voyagers are about 5 years older than the Pendolinos. It's probably harder to read, but harder to read wins over not displaying anything as I often see on Voyagers - it's turned off automatically if a coach goes into low power mode.

In the early days before they were "throttled", if the driver took full power on departure you'd often have a coach go dynamically into low power mode, with half the lights, the spots, the luggage rack lights and the reservations all going off until the unit was throttled back, at which time they'd come back on again.

but it also has a habit of refreshing to say “Available if not occupied” at random points of the journey.

That's not an error, that's deliberate. RESERVED is supposed to change to that at some point (I forget when) after departure from the reserved station. It follows, sort of, German practice - they remove reservations a specified time after departure, you're meant to mark your seat with e.g. an item of clothing or a book if going to the restaurant or toilet. The reason for doing it is to avoid discouraging people from sitting in unclaimed reserved seats, of which, due to the fake compulsory reservations, there were rather a lot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2023 ==

Interesting from an enthusiast POV but probably not so good for the casual passenger for such long distances.

I know they're a bit wider, but people who pay £8 advance (I think that's the lowest) from Euston to Crewe on a 350/2 probably don't mind. For some people, cost is the only concern, and it allows them the better mode of transport of the train instead of having to use Megabus.

It wasn't feasible in the very narrow width of a Voyager, but I can't see a fundamental problem with it, though I'd not choose it being a fairly big guy (I might if I was skinny, and a row of 3 would be fine for an adult and two small kids).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's not an error, that's deliberate. RESERVED is supposed to change to that at some point (I forget when) after departure from the reserved station. It follows, sort of, German practice - they remove reservations a specified time after departure, you're meant to mark your seat with e.g. an item of clothing or a book if going to the restaurant or toilet. The reason for doing it is to avoid discouraging people from sitting in unclaimed reserved seats, of which, due to the fake compulsory reservations, there were rather a lot.

Yes I know, but what I’m saying is a 390 will often display a “Reserved from Preston to Carlisle” sort of message and then change to that at Warrington Bank Quay or somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I know, but what I’m saying is a 390 will often display a “Reserved from Preston to Carlisle” sort of message and then change to that at Warrington Bank Quay or somewhere.

There does seem to be an issue with them not updating when they're meant to, yes.

 

[Energy]

It's newer. The Voyagers are about 5 years older than the Pendolinos. It's probably harder to read, but harder to read wins over not displaying anything as I often see on Voyagers - it's turned off automatically if a coach goes into low power mode.

Both had their PIS (and likely reservation screens) supplied by Televic Rail.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Both had their PIS (and likely reservation screens) supplied by Televic Rail.

I wonder why the 390s got the ones they did, because honestly they look decades older than the Voyager type.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Is this the screen or the software as well?

 

[DustyBin]

I've only travelled on the XC Voyagers, usually between Newcastle and various destinations in the Midlands. If they had a decent refurb and there was more of them they'd be fine; as it is they're dingy, dirty and overcrowded in my experience. The smells do appear to have been dealt with though. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, but as it is I can't say that I particularly enjoy travelling on them.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

With respect, that's a ridiculous idea if they are to continue working as single units. On evening peak services I've actually had to stand with a first class ticket between Reading and Basingstoke as it is.

What I meant was to do that on top of acquiring extra units (ex-Avanti Voyagers and ex-EMR Meridians) whenever they become available, so they don't have to run single units. However, I doubt the DfT/Treasury would be willing to fund both. BTW I hope you were able to get a partial refund, as imagine paying a truckload extra and still not get a seat? Ouch!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What I meant was to do that on top of acquiring extra units (ex-Avanti Voyagers and ex-EMR Meridians) whenever they become available, so they don't have to run single units. However, I doubt the DfT/Treasury would be willing to fund both. BTW I hope you were able to get a partial refund, as imagine paying a truckload extra and still not get a seat? Ouch!

I was on a season so decided it not worth bothering.

 

[Mat17]

I remember the days of full and standing 7 car HSTs from Sheffield to York, not a pleasant experience.

Then along came the Voyager full of fancy tech but lacking in more basic but fundamental points. Imagine my shock when the 7 car HST did not arrive but the shiny new 4-car Voyager trundled in instead. It was a tight fit getting myself a spot in the vestibule, sardine class you might say, and so started my frequent association with Voyagers and being stood up. I would say that 50% of the time travelling on them I've been stood up. So did I like the Voyagers? The answer was no.

The less common times when travelling on a lightly loaded Voyager, they've been pretty spot on. I don't think the train is a poor design, it's just been utilised abysmally. 4 coaches - one first class, half of another formerly used as a shop - gives 2 1/2 carriages of second class seating. That is no way acceptable for a long distance train. It's akin to lashing a pair of 158s together and locking a carriage out of use.

Voyagers are much more acceptable when doubled up. Closer to the capacity required.

Outcome of the Voyager introduction? I stopped going to York. I couldn't face the journey. The rare times I go now, I use the stopping service via Pontefract instead. It's slower and a 150, but I get a seat.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Outcome of the Voyager introduction? I stopped going to York. I couldn't face the journey. The rare times I go now, I use the stopping service via Pontefract instead. It's slower and a 150, but I get a seat.

You do know you could just reserve one ahead and save yourself the time and discomfort?

 

[Mat17]

You do know you could just reserve one ahead and save yourself the time and discomfort?

I don't like being tied to specific trains. I'm very spontaneous when going out for a day trip. Sometimes I decide my destination on the spur of the moment when arriving at the station, I also never know how long I want to spend their either, so I want the freedom to use any train back.

Now I totally agree with what you are going to say, about not being able to take a seat for granted and that it's the risk I take. That's not a point I'd argue against. For example if a 7, 8 or 9 coach train arrives heaving to the rafters, then well I've been unfortunate and it's a busy service.

What I take issue with is using 4 coach trains on these services at all. It'd be like swapping a rush hour 4-car electro-star for a 153.

The customers are an after thought.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don't like being tied to specific trains. I'm very spontaneous when going out for a day trip. Sometimes I decide my destination on the spur of the moment when arriving at the station, I also never know how long I want to spend their either, so I want the freedom to use any train back.

Now I totally agree with what you are going to say, about not being able to take a seat for granted and that it's the risk I take. That's not a point I'd argue against. For example if a 7, 8 or 9 coach train arrives heaving to the rafters, then well I've been unfortunate and it's a busy service.

Not at all. I'm just wondering if you knew you could reserve a seat on CrossCountry anytime up to fifteen minutes before departure time from your station.

It's been available as long as I can remember. This is absolutely terrible, but six or seven years ago, when I was about thirteen or fourteen, my phone number got banned from making text reservations, as I used to text the reservation request code five times so that I'd have a choice of seats when on the train.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Outcome of the Voyager introduction? I stopped going to York. I couldn't face the journey. The rare times I go now, I use the stopping service via Pontefract instead. It's slower and a 150, but I get a seat.

It might even be better to change at Leeds, so you can use the more frequent 195-operated services via Barnsley, followed by another 195-operated service to York (both services are 2tph).

 

[D365]

I don't like being tied to specific trains. I'm very spontaneous when going out for a day trip.

Afraid I’m exacerbating the off-topic postings, but your comment about using the Sheffield-York via Pontefract service is interesting. I have recently been using this service too, however in contrast to yourself, I am doing this in order to book advance tickets, a pair of which comes to ~50% of the cost of a SHF-YRK open return. And only about 10-20 mins slower than the CrossCountry via Leeds.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Afraid I’m exacerbating the off-topic postings, but your comment about using the Sheffield-York via Pontefract service is interesting. I have recently been using this service too, however in contrast to yourself, I am doing this in order to book advance tickets, a pair of which comes to ~50% of the cost of a SHF-YRK open return. And only about 10-20 mins slower than the CrossCountry via Leeds.

Dare I say that does beg the question if you're aware of it why do it anyway?

What I take issue with is using 4 coach trains on these services at all. It'd be like swapping a rush hour 4-car electro-star for a 153.

It is truly bizarre to see 4 carriage trains rumble into Bristol or Basingstoke with a destination of Newcastle, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, I'll give you that, and I like to think that when the Voyagers finally have had their heyday - for better or for worse - the same mistake wouldn't be repeated, and a more appropriate length of train will be specified. People often suggest 7 cars, to my confusion, 9/10/11 cars work on the WCML/ECML/GWML/MML and similarly I think 9 cars + would be the best idea for the route, proofing it for future passenger growth.

Would be rather like running XC services in the late 20th century using VEPs hauled by 33s!

Interesting from an enthusiast POV but probably not so good for the casual passenger for such long distances.

H Set "OSCARS" here in Sydney have 3+2 seating, and they're responsible for all of the South Coast and a good chunk of the Central Coast & Newcastle InterCity services. Mind you, we're talking journeys of 3 to 3.5 hours here, so a significantly shorter end to end journey than what Voyagers tend to do. Not much longer than Manchester Bristol or London Holyhead though!

I must add that the fact CrossCountry never got earsplitting PRM door tones fitted to their Voyagers (Avanti did, although thankfully their Pendolinos were untouched) makes them all the more nice to me. Azumas and IETs make a horrendous racket with those annoying sounds, particularly at origin stations or those with long dwells where the doors are constantly opened and then closing on a timer.