Voyager experience not as bad as expected

[Bletchleyite]

The noisy 68 is hardly audible in the coaches whereas the engine is on a Voyager. The even bigger issue with DMUs is the vibrations from the engine and annoying transmission whines. I'm afraid it's not an enthusiast thing but pure fact that loco hauled stock is quieter and has a better environment and that is that. I've not been on any unit in any country that is quieter than loco hauled stock.

The interior of 80x (except Lumo's for some reason, due to the horrible electronic whine that is nowhere near as pronounced on others) is considerably quieter than the interior of Mk1 LHCS with the windows open, and you can barely tell if they're on diesel.

You don't want it too quiet, if it's completely silent then the noises made by others tend to annoy people instead.

 

[Richard Scott]

The interior of 80x (except Lumo's for some reason, due to the horrible electronic whine that is nowhere near as pronounced on others) is considerably quieter than the interior of Mk1 LHCS with the windows open.

Chalk and cheese! An airbus A320 is quieter inside than a DC3, what's the point in comparing the two?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chalk and cheese! An airbus A320 is quieter inside than a DC3, what's the point in comparing the two?

Because it's not LHCS vs. MU, it depends on the actual LHCS or the actual MU. That was my point.

Sure, in the 1980s when you were comparing an aircon Mk2 with a 150 or 156 there was no contest, but things have changed a lot now. And TBH I don't find Voyager engines disruptive, it's a sort of low rumble quite similar to me to Mk1 track noise. The main things I don't like about Voyagers are the lack of legroom, the lack of luggage space and the inefficient use of space meaning there likely aren't enough seats (plus the XC ones all being 2-3 vehicles too short). There are upsides, for instance the windows are absolutely massive.

 

[Krokodil]

Because it's not LHCS vs. MU, it depends on the actual LHCS or the actual MU. That was my point.

So rather than making stupid comparisons with antiques, let's compare stock of the same generation.

Bombardier vs Alstom. I'd say that an Alstom Coradia is far more comfortable than the various 22x. Assuming of course that you're comparing an equivalent state of wear & tear - a worn-out 175 seat could be painful to sit on, just like people complain about the tatty state of XC's Voyagers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So rather than making stupid comparisons with antiques, let's compare stock of the same generation.

Bombardier vs Alstom. I'd say that an Alstom Coradia is far more comfortable than the various 22x. Assuming of course that you're comparing an equivalent state of wear & tear - a worn-out 175 seat could be painful to sit on, just like people complain about the tatty state of XC's Voyagers.

The 180 I'd agree is better above the solebar but worse below it. Which is odd as it's little more than a souped up Sprinter with a fibreglass snout - the Voyager is hugely more complex.

 

[Krokodil]

The 180 I'd agree is better above the solebar but worse below it.

What's a few fires between friends?

 

[43066]

Which is odd as it's little more than a souped up Sprinter with a fibreglass snout

I think that does sprinters, reliable stalwarts of the UK rail network for approaching four decades now, a massive disservice!

They’re far more reliable than that incendiary plastic rubbish. Albeit 180s are very comfortable from a passenger point of view.

 

[physics34]

I've never had a problem with them, you'll find a lot on here have the rose tinted spectacles on when it comes to the old stock before Voyagers...

I think mk2 or mk3 stock beats Voyagers any day of the week. The traction however, and reliability maybe a little different though. Class 47s regularly broke down.

 

[nw1]

Same comment as others really. Voyagers are fine, even good, when they're not crowded, though when they are crowded they can feel more cramped than, say, a 444.

They're a good option to travel from Southampton to Brockenhurst, or at least they were, when they stopped there...

The big issue is really the Government not giving XC the funds to run appropriate-length stock. From the comment above about Chris Green asking for longer trains and getting refused, this appears to be a long-standing problem, whatever colour is/was in Government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that does sprinters, reliable stalwarts of the UK rail network for approaching four decades now, a massive disservice!

They’re far more reliable than that incendiary plastic rubbish. Albeit 180s are very comfortable from a passenger point of view.

The point was that the 180 is evolutionary - just a faster unit using a traditional hydraulic transmission and no complexity like tilt - and the 22x was revolutionary - a tilting, highly electronic DEMU. The former was the HST, the latter was the APT. Who'd have thought the hugely more complex unit would win this one?

 

[david1212]

That's true of most UK stock. Our loading gauge is basically narrow-gauge on standard gauge bogies. Most UK stock is about the same size as most Swiss narrow gauge stock, though typically with a higher ride height.

I was trying to make a relative comparison between the cross-section interior dimensions of MK2 / MK3 stock and a Voyager with the latter being significantly smaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was trying to make a relative comparison between the cross-section interior dimensions of MK2 / MK3 stock and a Voyager with the latter being significantly smaller.

Voyager: 2.73m wide
Mk4 LHCS: 2.73m wide

Can't find Mk3 online but I'm sure I recall it being 2.76m, only 3cm wider.

It's the tilt profile that gives the tight feel, but it does for the Mk4 too.

 

[Economist]

The Voyagers are seriously quick units in terms of acceleration, give one "the beans" from a standing start and it'll hit 60mph in well under a minute, I believe that's with them de-rated as well.

What would make sense is to refit them all with 2+1 seating with decent legroom throughout and run them as double sets. I don't know if the Meridians could be reformed to run the shorter sets as doubles but keeping them and refurbing as such would add a lot of flexible capacity to the network.

 

[driverd]

What would make sense is to refit them all with 2+1 seating with decent legroom throughout and run them as double sets.

In what world would that make any sense?

I don't know if the Meridians could be reformed to run the shorter sets as doubles but keeping them and refurbing as such would add a lot of flexible capacity to the network.

And also make the route massively more expensive, reducing seated capacity and increasing the budget.

 

[Richard Scott]

The Voyagers are seriously quick units in terms of acceleration, give one "the beans" from a standing start and it'll hit 60mph in well under a minute, I believe that's with them de-rated as well.

That's why their fuel consumption I ridiculous and their environmental credentials poor. The last thing that's needed is reduced capacity and more vehicles running. What they really need is replacing with something vastly better in respect of fuel consumption and can make use of overhead wires, where encountered, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

 

[Energy]

What would make sense is to refit them all with 2+1 seating with decent legroom throughout and run them as double sets.

Make sense in what way? Comfort isn't the main complaint on here, its capacity. Lumo has shown that the British public want cheap fares.

The most sense proposal I've seen on here was to take on the 20 221s, take 1 car out of them to make 20 6 car 221s and 58 4 car 220/221s to run as 29 8 car sets.

 

[43066]

The Voyagers are seriously quick units in terms of acceleration, give one "the beans" from a standing start and it'll hit 60mph in well under a minute, I believe that's with them de-rated as well.

222s are quicker if anything. I’ve driven cars that have worse accelerarion above 100mph. Seriously impressive units.

Lumo has shown that the British public want cheap fares.

Selling cheap tickets doesn’t prove much. Anyone could sell £10 notes for £9 all day long…

You could equally argue that Avanti who have achieved crush loaded trains, despite no longer selling advance tickets (or at least making it far harder to buy them), have shown that the market will bear more expensive pricing.

 

[Energy]

Selling cheap tickets doesn’t prove much. Anyone could sell £10 notes for £9 all day long…

You could equally argue that Avanti who have achieved crush loaded trains, despite no longer selling advance tickets (or at least making it far harder to buy them), have shown that the market will bear more expensive pricing.

Avanti has traditionally been more for business while XC has been more leisure. If you asked XC passengers whether they wanted 2+1 seating or cheaper fares they would mostly say cheaper fares, look at the rise of budget airlines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti has traditionally been more for business while XC has been more leisure. If you asked XC passengers whether they wanted 2+1 seating or cheaper fares they would mostly say cheaper fares, look at the rise of budget airlines.

The situation could be made better by replacing the seats with ones with thinner backs, which have turned the legroom on Pendolinos and Northern 158s from tight to excellent without changing the actual layout. There are several options - ironing boards, Sophias (with the TfW cushion please!) or the seat used by FirstGroup.

 

[43066]

Avanti has traditionally been more for business while XC has been more leisure. If you asked XC passengers whether they wanted 2+1 seating or cheaper fares they would mostly say cheaper fares, look at the rise of budget airlines.

Now you’re segmenting the market.

Your original statement was: “Lumo has shown that the British public want cheap fares”. That’s far too simplistic - there’s certainly a stratum of the public who want cheap fares, but there are others who will pay more for convenience, luxury etc.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

but there are others who will pay more for convenience, luxury etc.

the people who pay more for luxury are why first class exists.

 

[Economist]

That's why their fuel consumption I ridiculous and their environmental credentials poor. The last thing that's needed is reduced capacity and more vehicles running. What they really need is replacing with something vastly better in respect of fuel consumption and can make use of overhead wires, where encountered, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

If we're to get people out of cars, especially on leisure routes, the service should ideally average a mile a minute and be comfortable. 2+2 on a Voyager is tight but I reckon with a reconfiguration they could be much more spacious, the acceleration helps to reduce delays as a result of the massive increase in temporary/emergency speed restrictions lurking about.

Make sense in what way? Comfort isn't the main complaint on here, its capacity.

With lots of Voyagers and Meridians coming off lease, there's a lot of extra capacity right there for an operator which wants to use them. Scrapping 20 year old trains which are still mechanically/electrically sound makes no sense. Perhaps they could receive newer power packs, speaking of which...

222s are quicker if anything. I’ve driven cars that have worse accelerarion above 100mph. Seriously impressive units.

I bet they'd be even quicker with the 986 horsepower diesel generators that the 810s are going to get. If they were re-geared to 100mph, given a decent torque curve and put on somewhere with no electricity like the Chiltern Main Line or SWR's West of England for regional express work, imagine the fun to be had!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They accelerated like a sports car when new, it was a shame they throttled them

 

[Energy]

the people who pay more for luxury are why first class exists.

Exactly. XC already have a good first class product, and it isn't filled so 2+1 throughout isn't what people want.

Avanti's withdraw of advance fares is interesting, especially as they'll now be more in the leisure market.

With lots of Voyagers and Meridians coming off lease, there's a lot of extra capacity right there for an operator which wants to use them. Scrapping 20 year old trains which are still mechanically/electrically sound makes no sense. Perhaps they could receive newer power packs, speaking of which...

Extra rolling stock comes at a cost. While XC had longer trains (at lower frequencies) they weren't exactly spacious, the 1tp2h 9 car Bournemouth to Manchester could be almost fully seated leaving Bournemouth (according to a regular passenger I know) and that isn't the busy part of the route.

Its now 1tph and additional trains from Reading to Newcastle (5pd) but with shorter trains instead. Lengthening the rolling stock back to 8/9 car but keeping the frequency would be great, changing them to entirely 2+1 would just be undoing this extra capacity.

 

[D365]

If you asked XC passengers whether they wanted 2+1 seating or cheaper fares they would mostly say cheaper fares, look at the rise of budget airlines.

Even putting aside inter-modal competition, I find CrossCountry fares to be extortionate. But this isn't down to the rolling stock, as EMR offers cheap fares on the Derby-Sheffield route that it shares with CrossCountry.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Even putting aside inter-modal competition, I find CrossCountry fares to be extortionate. But this isn't down to the rolling stock, as EMR offers cheap fares on the Derby-Sheffield route that it shares with CrossCountry.

Shorter distance I find the opposite, I can get Newport to Chepstow for half the price of TfW by just booking the ticket an hour in advance

 

[azOOOOOma]

Can someone explain how crewing works when you have a double set? Is everyone doubled up so there is a first class host, retail service manager and train manager on the front and at the back? If so which train manager would be in charge? Same with LNER I’ve often wondered how it works on these trains

 

[Energy]

Shorter distance I find the opposite, I can get Newport to Chepstow for half the price of TfW by just booking the ticket an hour in advance

XC is typically very expensive. You can get some decent fares by using split ticketing.

 

[Gaelan]

The only "true InterCity" service Ireland has is the Enterprise, and even that is a bit borderline.

I see what you did there!

 

[43066]

I bet they'd be even quicker with the 986 horsepower diesel generators that the 810s are going to get. If they were re-geared to 100mph, given a decent torque curve and put on somewhere with no electricity like the Chiltern Main Line or SWR's West of England for regional express work, imagine the fun to be had!

From a driving point of view, nothing will ever beat the short HST sets. True weapons, went like the proverbial rat up a drainpipe, and braked very well too!

Sadly those days are over…