£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Starmill]

It will be interesting if any of the bus operators who were part of the original scheme drop out of the extension for various reasons. Or even some of the bus companies which didn't originally sign up to the scheme signing up.

The latter has already happened in the second round. I agree it will be interesting to see how this changes, if at all, for the third.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm basing my description on posts in this thread from November and December last year. Happy to be corrected if they're wrong.

I think that was true in anticipation of the first round, but the second round includes routes that didn't exist in 2022.

I'm still unsure whether there was a one-off payment to participating operators or whether reimbursement was based on actual ticket sales.


Maybe the first round was the former and the second round is the latter now there has been time to put a mechanism in place?

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Looks like it's due to be extended til October, with a further £2.50 cap for another 13 months.

The Grauniad says:



I have to say this is a result. It's proven far cheaper than supporting buses through tendering, even if councils were given grants to do this. Whilst it won't save every service that may be lost, it may enhance others, this certainly seems to the case with buses around Selby. Rural routes in particular those which people may actually want to use, will benefit in particular. For once this government has done something sensible and pro-public transport.

Edit: Damn, beaten to it.

Can't help thinking that another reason for the whole Scheme is to Punish and Demonize the Railway Industry for its continued Industrial action. There are many Routes where Buses Parallel Rail Services and maybe the idea is to get people using these instead of the train by continually extending the £2 Fare scheme, thereby killing off short/middle distance Rail Travel, which will result in Service Cuts.

 

[mikeg]

Can't help thinking that another reason for the whole Scheme is to Punish and Demonize the Railway Industry for its continued Industrial action. There are many Routes where Buses Parallel Rail Services and maybe the idea is to get people using these instead of the train by continually extending the £2 Fare scheme, thereby killing off short/middle distance Rail Travel, which will result in Service Cuts.

Possibly. I know I'm using the bus in cases where I'd have previously used the train, but then that has a lot to do with me moving to an area with better bus services. That said I could see this being the case if I still lived where I used to, where I used the trains a lot and the buses hardly ever.

If anything it shows the fallacy of insisting on increasing fares to reduce subsidy.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm still unsure whether there was a one-off payment to participating operators or whether reimbursement was based on actual ticket sales.


Maybe the first round was the former and the second round is the latter now there has been time to put a mechanism in place?

In both cases operators were offered a fixed amount before the 3 month period started, based on some slightly unknown calculations but broadly using historic data. Operators could either accept or decline (or if there were particular changed circumstances, go back and argue the amount). it appears the same principle will apply for the latest extension, though no operator yet has any idea of the amount they’ll be offered, and whether it will factor in the level of fare increases needed to counter the high level of cost inflation and hence the increases in fares that would be needed without a scheme. Bear in mind the latest extension of BRG at £140m for 21 months is a considerable reduction on current levels - so service cuts are still pretty likely.

 

[Dai Corner]

In both cases operators were offered a fixed amount before the 3 month period started, based on some slightly unknown calculations but broadly using historic data. Operators could either accept or decline (or if there were particular changed circumstances, go back and argue the amount). it appears the same principle will apply for the latest extension, though no operator yet has any idea of the amount they’ll be offered, and whether it will factor in the level of fare increases needed to counter the high level of cost inflation and hence the increases in fares that would be needed without a scheme. Bear in mind the latest extension of BRG at £140m for 21 months is a considerable reduction on current levels - so service cuts are still pretty likely.

Thanks.

There would appear to be a fair amount of commercial risk involved which may explain why not all operators are participating.

 

[Starmill]

Possibly. I know I'm using the bus in cases where I'd have previously used the train, but then that has a lot to do with me moving to an area with better bus services. That said I could see this being the case if I still lived where I used to, where I used the trains a lot and the buses hardly ever.

If anything it shows the fallacy of insisting on increasing fares to reduce subsidy.

Proportionally the railway has received rather more money overall of course.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can't help thinking that another reason for the whole Scheme is to Punish and Demonize the Railway Industry for its continued Industrial action. There are many Routes where Buses Parallel Rail Services and maybe the idea is to get people using these instead of the train by continually extending the £2 Fare scheme, thereby killing off short/middle distance Rail Travel, which will result in Service Cuts.

Possibly. I know I'm using the bus in cases where I'd have previously used the train, but then that has a lot to do with me moving to an area with better bus services. That said I could see this being the case if I still lived where I used to, where I used the trains a lot and the buses hardly ever.

If anything it shows the fallacy of insisting on increasing fares to reduce subsidy.

I don't we need to worrying about conspiracy theories. The reality is much more prosaic.

Firstly, there aren't that many bus routes that really parallel rail services. Rail reopenings have seen many bus routes decline - the Galashiels to Edinburgh service going from half hourly to two hourly so it's not as if the capacity is really there. And of course, so much of the rail network is a fixed cost so running fewer trains is not the big saving.

The extension of the £2 cap is simply to garner/protect votes; to show that they are tackling the "cost of living crisis" as they will also desperately not want the publicity of having to deal with the news of 1 in 7 bus routes being withdrawn on their watch.

I might add that, as we've seen in Cornwall (First), West Yorkshire and Merseyside (North West), there has been a number of damaging bus strikes too.

 

[Starmill]

I don't we need to worrying about conspiracy theories. The reality is much more prosaic.

Firstly, there aren't that many bus routes that really parallel rail services. Rail reopenings have seen many bus routes decline - the Galashiels to Edinburgh service going from half hourly to two hourly so it's not as if the capacity is really there. And of course, so much of the rail network is a fixed cost so running fewer trains is not the big saving.

The extension of the £2 cap is simply to garner/protect votes; to show that they are tackling the "cost of living crisis" as they will also desperately not want the publicity of having to deal with the news of 1 in 7 bus routes being withdrawn on their watch.

I might add that, as we've seen in Cornwall (First), West Yorkshire and Merseyside (North West), there has been a number of damaging bus strikes too.

Indeed. The bus-rail markets do overlap occasionally, but it's fairly minimal. On nearly all flows between towns or to and from major centres, either the train or the bus has a clear edge and most people just use on or the other.

Many of the stage carriage routes where there's true competition are often not part of the £2 scheme. For example, Oxford Tube between London and Oxford is very competitive with GWR, Red Arrow between Nottingham and Derby is very competitive with EMR and CrossCountry, and Greenline 757 between Luton or Luton Airport and London is very competitive with EMR and Thameslink, however none of these routes are receiving the fare cap grant.

I can only think of two corridors where there's true competition and the capped fare grant is at play. One is the X43 Burnley - Manchester fast, which is eligible for the £2 fares and is very competitive on time and is triple the frequency of Northern. The other is X15 Newcastle - Morpeth - Alnwick. These are much less competitive on times, but they are much more competitive once one factors in the length of the walk from the railway station to the town centre in Morpeth, and the bus or taxi journey required for this in Alnmouth (walking isn't really an option due to the lack of a footway). Doubtless there will be a small handful of other contenders for this, such as Slough - London, Norwich - Great Yarmouth, Stockport - Buxton, York - Hull and Leeds - Harrogate. But it's overall a short list.

Many stage carriage services in Northern England have effectively ceded the interurban market back to the railway and coach lines recently, such as Manchester - Blackburn, Manchester - Leeds and Manchester - Sheffield. The Leeds - York fast services are also gone Accrington - Manchester has been slowed down so much it's no longer competitive.

 

[Russel]

Indeed. The bus-rail markets do overlap occasionally, but it's fairly minimal. On nearly all flows between towns or to and from major centres, either the train or the bus has a clear edge and most people just use on or the other.

Many of the stage carriage routes where there's true competition are often not part of the £2 scheme. For example, Oxford Tube between London and Oxford is very competitive with GWR, Red Arrow between Nottingham and Derby is very competitive with EMR and CrossCountry, and Greenline 757 between Luton or Luton Airport and London is very competitive with EMR and Thameslink, however none of these routes are receiving the fare cap grant.

I can only think of two corridors where there's true competition and the capped fare grant is at play. One is the X43 Burnley - Manchester fast, which is eligible for the £2 fares and is very competitive on time and is triple the frequency of Northern. The other is X15 Newcastle - Morpeth - Alnwick. These are much less competitive on times, but they are much more competitive once one factors in the length of the walk from the railway station to the town centre in Morpeth, and the bus or taxi journey required for this in Alnmouth (walking isn't really an option due to the lack of a footway). Doubtless there will be a small handful of other contenders for this, such as Slough - London, Norwich - Great Yarmouth, Stockport - Buxton, York - Hull and Leeds - Harrogate. But it's overall a short list.

Many stage carriage services in Northern England have effectively ceded the interurban market back to the railway and coach lines recently, such as Manchester - Blackburn, Manchester - Leeds and Manchester - Sheffield. The Leeds - York fast services are also gone Accrington - Manchester has been slowed down so much it's no longer competitive.

I've previously lived in Tamworth, there is a bus into Birmingham that runs every 15 minutes, even with the longer journey time, for me it was my go to choice when I needed to get into Birmingham over the train, which was usually standing room only and double the price of the bus.

Also, between Sutton Coldfield and Birmingham there is an every 8 minute bus service that follows the Cross City, the buses are always well loaded, despite the locals knowing the Cross City line is basically a free service, if you're that way inclined.

 

[Haywain]

Greenline 757 between Luton or Luton Airport and London is very competitive with EMR and Thameslink,

It might look competitive on price, but it fails dramatically on journey time and frequency and user numbers are dwarfed by rail. People going into London from Luton either get the train or drive.

 

[Mikey C]

It might look competitive on price, but it fails dramatically on journey time and frequency and user numbers are dwarfed by rail. People going into London from Luton either get the train or drive.

Partially it depends on where you are coming from. A lot of National Express routes serve Luton and Stansted

 

[markymark2000]

Partially it depends on where you are coming from. A lot of National Express routes serve Luton and Stansted

Luton Airport, based of 2019 stats from the Civil Aviation Authority (https://www.caa.co.uk/data-and-anal...assenger-survey/passenger-survey-report-2019/. Table 7), 22.3% of departing passengers surveyed travelled by bus or coach. 21.2% of departing passengers surveyed travelled by rail.

There are no more recent stats sadly.

 

[1D54]

But does bus passengers include the former station to airport link service which people have of course left trains to get on.

 

[GusB]

We've drifted away from the main topic, which is the £2 fare scheme. Anyone who wants to discuss links to Luton should do so in a separate thread.

 

[JD2168]

First South Yorkshire yesterday retweeted the £2 fare extension on their Twitter page.

First contine to scroll the £2 max fare but only on certain routes operating from Olive Grove depot. Stagecoach continues to have £2 max fare stickers on the front of the bus either next to the Stagecoach logo or the Destination blind.

 

[Starmill]

It might look competitive on price, but it fails dramatically on journey time and frequency and user numbers are dwarfed by rail. People going into London from Luton either get the train or drive.

True, it's largest appeal was always that it was direct from Luton Airport while the train option required a change. Of course now the new rail option from the airport doesn't require a bus journey any more this has perhaps shifted the balance.

Either way it's not currently a service in receipt of the fare cap grant, although the other Arriva greenline route Harlow - Heathrow Airport is.

 

[gc4946]

Now that the £2 max fare is continuing until the end of October, and £2.50 thereafter, I foresee bus services in tourist hotspots will be overcrowded this summer, resulting in passengers unable to board.
I hope operators will put on extra buses to deal with increased patronage as the scheme becomes more widely known.

 

[mikeg]

Now that the £2 max fare is continuing until the end of October, and £2.50 thereafter, I foresee bus services in tourist hotspots will be overcrowded this summer, resulting in passengers unable to board.
I hope operators will put on extra buses to deal with increased patronage as the scheme becomes more widely kno

Will it be any worse than a 'twirly invasion'? I mean plenty of people in tourist hotspots travel for free on this basis.

Also will Leeds to Scarborough say be made a less long service. eg. Leeds - York, and a separate York to Scarbourough service would almost certainly do just fine. For what it's worth my local service suffers overcrowding on a Saturday and the operator (Arriva Yorkshire) have registered the odd additional service just on a Saturday, meaning the Saturday timetable is now significantly better than the weekday one. But look at the demographics a lot of the people on the most overcrowded Saturday service are ENCTS holders.

 

[ChrisC]

For bus passengers outside of large urban areas it’s the announcement of the £2.50 maximum fare through to November 2024 which is the really good news. Just to use the example of villages around where I live in Central Nottinghamshire, the single fare into the nearest large town around 7 miles away would otherwise be £5.20 or £8.50 for a day ticket. I’ve recently got my ENCTS pass and have found the £2 fare very useful to be enable me to travel before 0930 at a reasonable price, as my first bus after 0930 is not until 1013. The reduced bus fares may not be of any relevance to people in locations like London where a single bus fare is only £1.75, but it’s been a fantastic scheme for bus passengers outside of large cities who normally have to pay very high fares.

 

[gc4946]

I suspect longer routes will be shortened in order to maximise revenue for operators, meaning customers at the very least to pay again if remaining on the bus, or changing en route.
I don't know if that's happened since the introduction of the £2 max fare.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't know if that's happened since the introduction of the £2 max fare.

Not to my knowledge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==

I suspect longer routes will be shortened in order to maximise revenue for operators, meaning customers at the very least to pay again if remaining on the bus, or changing en route.

That would act as a deterrence to passenger growth, and likely to put off existing passengers. It would be better to simply not partake in the voluntary fare cap scheme.

 

[Typhoon]

That would act as a deterrence to passenger growth, and likely to put off existing passengers. It would be better to simply not partake in the voluntary fare cap scheme.

Exactly. For some routes, there is no obvious break point with passengers travelling A->C, B->D, C->E on a route calling at A,B,C,D,E. Split the route and some passengers get pis$$ed off if connections are not made and look for alternatives.

 

[Deerfold]

I suspect longer routes will be shortened in order to maximise revenue for operators, meaning customers at the very least to pay again if remaining on the bus, or changing en route.
I don't know if that's happened since the introduction of the £2 max fare.

I think any routes where that would be likely to happen will have already done it to maximise revenue from ENTCS passes.

Many areas have got rid of cross city journeys in recent years, but that's usually been more to do with reliability as for many urban operators a day ticket is about the price of a return or two singles

 

[ReeceD1993]

Not to my knowledge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==


That would act as a deterrence to passenger growth, and likely to put off existing passengers. It would be better to simply not partake in the voluntary fare cap scheme.

The 700 has recently had further splits in the Route.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 700 has recently had further splits in the Route.

The 700 being from where to where?

 

[Marcus Fryer]

The 700 being from where to where?

Presumably he means the Portsmouth-Chichester-Littlehampton-Worthing-Brighton one as all the other route 700 on bustimes.org are short routes or not in England.

 

[RogerOut]

London doesn’t have fare stages so the price cap doesn’t really make any difference there.
The price cap is mainly helping the regular bus users who already pay for the bus anyway.
Where I live, if someone buys an adult ticket, up to four other people aged under 19 can travel with them.

So basically, five 18 year olds can travel on one ticket. Surely this is too generous?

 

[Goldfish62]

Presumably he means the Portsmouth-Chichester-Littlehampton-Worthing-Brighton one as all the other route 700 on bustimes.org are short routes or not in England.

I've just had a look at that. There are no adjacent sections of route with the same frequencies so clearly the split is to optimise frequencies rather than trying to fiddle the fare cap.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

Where I live, if someone buys an adult ticket, up to four other people aged under 19 can travel with them.

So basically, five 18 year olds can travel on one ticket. Surely this is too generous?

If it's too generous with the subsidised £2 fare cap then it would have been too generous without it. But then what's "too generous"? Why would anyone complain about public transport being cheap?

 

[northwichcat]

If it's too generous with the subsidised £2 fare cap then it would have been too generous without it. But then what's "too generous"? Why would anyone complain about public transport being cheap?

From an environmental prospective the greatest benefit is getting people travelling alone out of cars and on to greener methods. A car with a family of 4 in it takes up as much space on the road as a car with just the driver in it. We need to make public transport financially attractive to people who don't have someone travelling with them.