Signals in heavy fog

[strange6]

Having said that however, there are examples of where a banner repeater is used by the Guard and platform staff, effectively observed as if it were a starting signal. The one which immediately comes to mind is Bath Spa on the down, where a banner is sited on the platform end and is effectively obeyed as the starting signal. The same also applies at Portsmouth Harbour and at Fratton, where banner repeaters are the only signalling aid and are used for train dispatch purposes. There is an interesting situation at Romsey heading towards Southampton, where the curvature puts the signal pretty much out of view, and a banner is located toward the 'rear' end of the platform, however Gaurds must observe the signal itself as it has a junction indicator which has to be checked for the correct routing.

yeah, there do seem to be local situations like that. Driver9000 pointed out to me that there are two 'off' indicators between platforms 8 and 9 at Liverpool Lime Street that are for driver use. I suppose it's what works best for the location in question!

 

[O L Leigh]

There are a few strands getting mixed up here.

For starters, the provision or otherwise of a banner repeater has little or nothing to do platforms and train despatch but are there for the benefit of drivers. Even where a signal may be remote from a station platform or otherwise hidden from view from a stationary train, provided that the signal has adequate sighting distance on approach it does not require a banner repeater.

However, a banner repeater in the "off" position gives staff exactly the same information as the OFF indicators themselves; i.e. that the signal is not at danger. Therefore I see no problem with taking an OFF indicator as an indication that it is safe to proceed. After all, the closest person to the signal is almost always going to be the driver and he or she is always going to get the best view of it, so if it's safe for the platform staff or guard to despatch the train on the strength of an OFF indicator while the signal to which it relates is still obscured I see no reason why a driver wouldn't take it either.

Things get a bit more tasty in DOO-land where I work because often times you're responsible for despatching yourself and you won't always get the benefit of an OFF indicator. Under those circumstances I would always refer back to the previous signal aspect. Under 4 aspect signalling I would know that the most restrictive aspect I should encounter after a G is a YY, so I would be prepared to react to that. If the signal is showing a more restrictive aspect than that then something must have gone wrong somewhere or the signaller has had to put it back (in which case he should have told me first). But either way, that's not my fault and I can't be expected to treat every signal after a G as if it might be an R. In which case, the proximity of the signal to a platform is entirely immaterial.

O L Leigh

 

[MrC]

Having said that however, there are examples of where a banner repeater is used by the Guard and platform staff, effectively observed as if it were a starting signal.

However recent resignalling works at Basingstoke (& Farnborough?) station mean that the banner repeaters there now revert to on when the head of the train passes them, even though the associated signals are displaying a proceed aspect. This caused a few delays at first as guards of long (10 or 12 car) trains who worked the trains from the rear kept waiting for the signal to clear

 

[TDK]

It is of no use to the driver. The driver needs to know the exact aspect the signal is displaying; the OFF indicator cannot do that. Therefore the driver will not use the OFF indicator.
To put it simply the OFF indicator, when displaying OFF means the signal is displaying (4 aspect area) G, YY or Y. The driver needs to know which one of the 4 it is displaying.

No necessarily, if the off indicator says off the driver will presume the aspect is the most restrictive and drive accordingly, also the aspect before if not a single yellow will also determine whether the driver needs to check the signals. I would not bother the signaller if I couldn't see the signal I would walk up the platform to check it myself.

 

[GB]

or the signaller has had to put it back (in which case he should have told me first)

If the signaller has had to put it back then its almost certainly an emergency situation and thus negates the requirement to contact the driver first.

 

[strange6]

If the signaller has had to put it back then its almost certainly an emergency situation and thus negates the requirement to contact the driver first.

GB: Where did you get that quote from about 'putting it back'?

 

[MrC]

If the signaller has had to put it back then its almost certainly an emergency situation and thus negates the requirement to contact the driver first.

Not in my experience TBH. In 10 years I've never had a signal put back for an emergency situation (luckily!) but I've had plenty where the signaller's had other reasons and contacted me first (eg wrong route, signal cleared in error, mistaken identity, etc).

 

[strange6]

Not in my experience TBH. In 10 years I've never had a signal put back for an emergency situation (luckily!) but I've had plenty where the signaller's had other reasons and contacted me first (eg wrong route, signal cleared in error, mistaken identity, etc).

Which area do you work in then?

 

[MrC]

Which area do you work in then?

SWML. Other drivers over the same route (plus a few FGW drivers I've chatted to who cover the same and other WR routes) generally have the same experience. Signals put back for an emergency are very rare compared with other reasons. Maybe things are different elsewhere and I suppose it could depend on things like signalling/route complexity and no. of companies operating over a route.

 

[strange6]

SWML. Other drivers over the same route (plus a few FGW drivers I've chatted to who cover the same and other WR routes) generally have the same experience. Signals put back for an emergency are very rare compared with other reasons. Maybe things are different elsewhere and I suppose it could depend on things like signalling/route complexity and no. of companies operating over a route.

The few occasions I have known signals being put back up here are because of breakdowns when the road has already been given and trackside engineers cocking something up.

 

[MrC]

The few occasions I have known signals being put back up here are because of breakdowns when the road has already been given and trackside engineers cocking something up.

Ah, guess that's North of Bristol then? I think S&T are a bit sensitive around here after Clapham

 

[ralphchadkirk]

SWML. Other drivers over the same route (plus a few FGW drivers I've chatted to who cover the same and other WR routes) generally have the same experience. Signals put back for an emergency are very rare compared with other reasons. Maybe things are different elsewhere and I suppose it could depend on things like signalling/route complexity and no. of companies operating over a route.

It may be rare, but surely you must be prepared for it to happen?

 

[strange6]

Ah, guess that's North of Bristol then? I think S&T are a bit sensitive around here after Clapham

Wigan - Manchester area, Mr C. Signalling is pretty good around here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may be rare, but surely you must be prepared for it to happen?

Yeah, it's called slamming on the brakes ASAP lol

 

[MrC]

It may be rare, but surely you must be prepared for it to happen?

Any signal going back while the train is moving gets the same treatment without exception. You don't think for a second what might have caused it - that's for afterwards. I can't imagine any driver treating it any different.

If a signal goes back without prior warning while the train is at a stand (which is what we were talking about) then it's DRA on, warn the guard (or pop the cab door to prevent interlock) and contact the signaller via the CSR.

 

[GB]

GB: Where did you get that quote from about 'putting it back'?

It is in OLL's last post.

Not in my experience TBH. In 10 years I've never had a signal put back for an emergency situation (luckily!) but I've had plenty where the signaller's had other reasons and contacted me first (eg wrong route, signal cleared in error, mistaken identity, etc).

I am aware the are other reasons to put a signal back but it was in response to the word "had", which I took to mean without choice. But certainly yes, in the instances you quote he should contact you first.

I didn't word my post quite as well as I would have liked.

 

[strange6]

It is in OLL's last post.



I am aware the are other reasons to put a signal back but it was in response to the word "had", which I took to mean without choice. But certainly yes, in the instances you quote he should contact you first.

I didn't word my post quite as well as I would have liked.

I worded a post badly last night and got flamed for being wrong Little do they know!

 

[Class2ldn]

At the end of the day if a banner repeater is not provided then it has been assumed by the experts that the driver can see the actual aspect, fog,snow,rain whatever. If there are no banners at sheerness which is my area (sort of) then it must be assumed the driver can see the signal. Even if there was off indicators, if it was deemed the driver couldnt see the signal then there would be a banner but you wont see one on a straight platform unless the canopy etc is obscuring the view. Dont know sheerness myself but i drive around sevenoaks etc and even though the fog is bad at times you can normally see the signal at the end.

 

[strange6]

At the end of the day if a banner repeater is not provided then it has been assumed by the experts that the driver can see the actual aspect, fog,snow,rain whatever. If there are no banners at sheerness which is my area (sort of) then it must be assumed the driver can see the signal. Even if there was off indicators, if it was deemed the driver couldnt see the signal then there would be a banner but you wont see one on a straight platform unless the canopy etc is obscuring the view. Dont know sheerness myself but i drive around sevenoaks etc and even though the fog is bad at times you can normally see the signal at the end.

the drivers can see every signal on the network- it's just where and when they see it which determines the use of a banner repeater

 

[GB]

I seem to recall (probably wrongly) that the signal has to be in sight at line speed for at least 8 seconds.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

the drivers can see every signal on the network- it's just where and when they see it which determines the use of a banner repeater

But not all at the same time.

 

[strange6]

But not all at the same time.

Thats why I said, 'where and when' lol

 

[ainsworth74]

I seem to recall (probably wrongly) that the signal has to be in sight at line speed for at least 8 seconds.

I'm not going to dispute that too much (seeing as I'm not a driver!) but that seems like a long time. If line speed is 125mph then in 8 seconds you will cover 450m could you really see a signal that far away? Especially on say a sunny day?

 

[Class2ldn]

the drivers can see every signal on the network- it's just where and when they see it which determines the use of a banner repeater

Which is basically what i said. Are u a driver? Seem to like correcting people alot. If you are then thats fine but if not i dont think telling a qualified driver what a banner is for is a good idea lol.

 

[strange6]

Which is basically what i said. Are u a driver? Seem to like correcting people alot. If you are then thats fine but if not i dont think telling a qualified driver what a banner is for is a good idea lol.

Errrr, this is a forum for having discussions about railways, Mr Driver. I'm just as entitled to post as you are so get off your high horse if you please


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day if a banner repeater is not provided then it has been assumed by the experts that the driver can see the actual aspect, fog,snow,rain whatever. If there are no banners at sheerness which is my area (sort of) then it must be assumed the driver can see the signal.

That's quite an odd statement coming from a qualified driver in my opinion

 

[Class2ldn]

Discussion is fine but as a driver i dont wanna have the facts of the railway confirmed by someone who seems to have an opinion on everything. Dont wanna come across harsh but youve already been proved wrong once and edited your post to try and salvage yourself. Back on topic anyway. The driver should be able to see the aspect at each starting point on a station or a banner will be provided.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Errrr, this is a forum for having discussions about railways, Mr Driver. I'm just as entitled to post as you are so get off your high horse if you please

Just a tad hypocritical.

 

[strange6]

Discussion is fine but as a driver i dont wanna have the facts of the railway confirmed by someone who seems to have an opinion on everything. Dont wanna come across harsh but youve already been proved wrong once and edited your post to try and salvage yourself. Back on topic anyway. The driver should be able to see the aspect at each starting point on a station or a banner will be provided.

I very much doubt you are a driver with what you have just said. Sorry, mate. I just don't believe ya! lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just a tad hypocritical.

Pots and Kettles, ralph!

 

[GB]

I'm not going to dispute that too much (seeing as I'm not a driver!) but that seems like a long time. If line speed is 125mph then in 8 seconds you will cover 450m could you really see a signal that far away? Especially on say a sunny day?

You will be surprised at just how far away you can see signals, even on a sunny day.

As I say, I could be wrong on the 8 seconds but there is a specific minimum length of time the driver needs to observe the signal.

4.1.2 Sighting Distance
Signals shall normally be positioned to give drivers an approach view for a
minimum of 7 seconds and an uninterrupted view for at least 4 seconds.
Where these timings cannot be achieved but the sighting committee is
satisfied that an adequate approach view is achieved (i.e. the signal is
viewed for long enough for the driver to assimilate the aspect and indications
displayed by the signal), the sighting committee shall record their decision
and reasoning on the signal sighting form.
If these sighting distances cannot be achieved (and there is not an adequate
approach view at a lesser distance), a banner repeating signal (see Section
4.5) or co–acting signal (see Section 4.6) may be required.
Note: Interruptions of very short duration (e.g., caused by overhead line
equipment) may be ignored when determining the uninterrupted sighting
distance.
Sighting distance must be considered with respect to the view of the whole
signal i.e. including junction indicators, off-set alphanumeric route indicators,
etc. It is unacceptable for the signal aspect to be viewed for a
disproportionate amount of time before an associated indicator comes into
view.

Not far off I guess

 

[driver9000]

I'm not going to dispute that too much (seeing as I'm not a driver!) but that seems like a long time. If line speed is 125mph then in 8 seconds you will cover 450m could you really see a signal that far away? Especially on say a sunny day?

8 seconds sighting sounds right, I've heard it too. I think the same sighting time is used for Whistle boards too. Signals can be seen quite a distance away in good visibility, on a straight section of line, I can see signals over a mile away - sometimes more than one signal when running on the WCML!

 

[Class2ldn]

Well whoever decides to put the banners in does so for the reason that the driver cannot see the signal until there at a closer angle. If theres nothong at sheerness and il ask a colleague later, then the driver must be able to see the signal from the starting point.