Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It doesn't really matter if it does, because most of them are made on a mobile phone these days and that just costs LNER a bit of bandwidth (or nowt, if they're bought on Trainline as most tickets I believe are).
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LNER fare rises and single leg pricing on many flows, from 11 June
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It doesn't really matter if it does, because most of them are made on a mobile phone these days and that just costs LNER a bit of bandwidth (or nowt, if they're bought on Trainline as most tickets I believe are).
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Triangular or one-way journeys are not particularly niche. People will mix-and-match modes, or only travel one way. Many of my journeys are triangular/open-jaw these days as I often enter and leave the UK via different airports (this is more niche, but not ridiculously so with tourism).
For very long journeys, such as to the Far North of Scotland, I can see how losing an overnight break is a retrograde step. But, really, how many people take overnight breaks on normal journeys- and only on the route and only on the return leg of those journeys?
mangyiscute
Established Member
And on such long journeys you can do an overnight break of journey. I did one recently on a Ipswich to Totnes ticket on the outbound portion (at Reading) and it was not questioned
It's common to go out after work but people usually do so either near their work, or somewhere on their way home. One-way and other triangular journeys are indeed niche, even if they might have a greater prevalence amongst the "transport enthusiast" diaspora.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As I noted, because of the restriction codes on WCML tickets that go north of Lancaster you can't do the break on the outward anyway, which is when I'd most want it. So this is an enabler for the journey I (occasionally) do of that nature, not a disabler, as it would mean I can split the outward and not the return, which saves money over splitting the whole return ticket.
And yes, mix and match modes, or makes using CS easier without having to buy a return ticket valid both ways via London at a considerably higher price.
The only thing I can see it doing bad for me is costing me £10 once every few years if I have to abandon a holiday short if I'm ill or something. I'll pay that for the added flexibility.
Triangular journeys are niche. One-way journeys much less so, but there is no reason why reducing fares to make this more feasible need have involved eliminating returns.
Most people who fly somewhere book a simple return. Of course open jaw bookings are possible, but they're much less popular.
You'd be surprised by the number of foreign visitors who fly to London, and also want to visit Edinburgh and York.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They could have offered returns at double the singles, yes, but then the re-use problem would have remained, which is part of how this fare cut on single fares (don't forget that part!) is to be funded.
But it's not hard to just buy two singles instead of a return. That's what you do when you fly with any budget airline. If you don't know when you're returning, just hang fire buying it until you do know. If you want a "speculative" seat reservation before you've bought the ticket as you think a particular train will fill up, the LNER site lets you do that.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It depends, European short-haul tends to be single-leg pricing now, even on legacy airlines. It’s all single-leg pricing here, and so I will fly one way and get the ferry back, or I’ll fly into the UK at one airport and return from another.
That presupposes that the level of reuse is sufficiently high that it makes a material difference to income - this seems doubtful given that almost all tickets are now issued as e-tickets, whose use can easily be checked, and that almost all LNER journeys are to and/or from barriered stations.
It also blithely assumes that anyone who current undertakes such re-use will simply switch to paying full whack - rather than for example travelling without a ticket at all, or no longer travelling by rail.
In any event, it is utterly unjustifiable to impose additional inconvenience and cost to those who make legitimate use of the flexibility that walk-up tickets have long offered on the purported basis that this funds price cuts for others.
Perhaps not (for the average smartphone-wielding person). But it's certainly more effort than just buying one ticket in one transaction, so, in no way could it be described as "simpler".
LNER aren't an airline on rails, much as their arrogant management might like to think so.
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Not entirely so on legacy airlines - there's still usually a small saving by buying a return. But either way, that it's feasible doesn't mean it's hugely popular. There's a reason why airlines and flight aggregators default to a return search.
It's also worth considering that foreign tourists make up a minority of all rail travellers in the first place, and those undertaking triangular journeys are an even smaller subset.
Given the increasing number of people who use ticketing apps that will identify and offer the lowest fare that meets their criteria, whether it is a return or two singles, I do wonder whether this change is trying to solve a problem that increasingly belongs to yesterday's world?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Indeed. Most people go from A to B then back to A. They don’t stop off at C for a few days on the way home.
Britrail suits those of us outside the UK better anyway.
Where single-leg pricing is better is where you’re travelling peak in one direction only. When I travelled to London I often needed to be there before 10am- so peak prices- but coming back I preferred to meet a friend for drinks or dinner and get a later train home. So single leg pricing means I only pay top whack in one direction.
It would also have helped me travelling from Newcastle where it often suited me better to fly to/from Heathrow in one direction. Maybe LNER might regret making mixed-mode easier.
Losers are those who travel in the shoulder-peak in both directions, with the Off-Peak Return going, but I’d say this is less common.
You aren't alone but my experience on the railway was that almost nobody broke their journey in the context of 1.5bn passenger journeys or whatever. It is a very niche thing to do - most people don't know, or care, that it is a feature of some tickets.
miklcct
Established Member
One way journeys aren't niche at all. It is very common take a train out and a coach / getting a lift back, or vice versa.
Even if I go out after work near my workplace, if it involves going to another station, it becomes a triangular journey. Imagine that pay as you go doesn't exist, even a journey as simple as West Hampstead (home) - St Pancras (work) - bus to Camden Town for a drink - West Hampstead (home) can't be done on a simple return ticket.
You might find it common, but as we have established over numerous past threads, your travel habits are very different to those of the average person.
thedbdiboy
Established Member
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It disproportionately affects people who have the time and interest to crawl through the opportunities offered by open/flexible tickets, restrictions and route permissions. In other words, rather a lot of people on these boards. But for the majority of travellers it makes booking a simpler matter of 'when are you going?' and 'when are you coming back?' rather than 'do I buy a return or two singles?'
This of course is the rub - for online/app based/digital ticketing it works very well. The advantages at a ticket office are less clear cut but you know which way the market is headed...
The difference is that the work that these apps do aligns better with the fare structure the operator has, rather than gaming the fare structure, so the operator retains better control of yield management.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And Advances can be used to smooth the peak, this is how it's always been done on Avanti/Virgin, there has never been a BVR (Business Saver) on the West Coast which is what the LNER Off Peak is.
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It does make things a lot simpler for e.g. Trainsplit.
If it only affects a small minority of travellers, then how are the negative changes generating enough revenue to fund the anticipated loss of revenue through the fare reductions? The industry can't argue it both ways!
The reality is that almost everyone who currently buys an Off-Peak Return to/from London/Stevenage will be worse off. That's quite a lot of people and so this is a significant retrograde step for more than just the knowledgeable few who frequent these fora.
It would foolish to assume anything about Advance pricing. It's entirely unregulated and the TOCs can charge whatever they like, constrained only by the existence of walk-up fares. This is why the scrapping of Off-Peak Returns will lead to people paying a lot more.
So ignoring singles / advance etc…
Trainline gives me £170 return off peak, return in a month for next tuesday / return wednesday noon trains from Euston to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.
using Kings Cross, again ignoring super advance, set train etc, it looks like £87 Super off peak single looks closest match, so £174.
on balance thats pretty close.
Airfares for the same dates / times are cheaper, though cheaper restrictive rail tickets also exist.
if you were a Business traveller on expenses though, driving the 800 mile round trip would burn around c£120 of fuel, but HMRC would grant you c£320 in mileage allowance making you saving of c£200, plus an extra c£40 if you carried a colleague.
Trainline gives me £170 return off peak, return in a month for next tuesday / return wednesday noon trains from Euston to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.
using Kings Cross, again ignoring super advance, set train etc, it looks like £87 Super off peak single looks closest match, so £174.
on balance thats pretty close.
Airfares for the same dates / times are cheaper, though cheaper restrictive rail tickets also exist.
if you were a Business traveller on expenses though, driving the 800 mile round trip would burn around c£120 of fuel, but HMRC would grant you c£320 in mileage allowance making you saving of c£200, plus an extra c£40 if you carried a colleague.
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I don’t know “almost everyone” so don’t know what they do.
What I do know is that, unless I want Advance tickets (very rare), I will normally buy from the TVM on the day and do not need to specify any trains, outward or return…….
….. Nor do I need to “get told” what to buy - TOCs would probably like to tell me what to buy and it would likely cost more than what I actually buy.
Back when fares weren't so unaffordable, yes.
I’m 100% in favour of single tickets…
…In countries like the Netherlands where you can travel peak for 4 hours from one end of the country to the other for €30, walk up fare.
Imagine passengers trying to use the same spin as these PR people: the law requiring a valid ticket is like sooo old and “outdated” so why should we have to have a ticket?! Simpler, better value.
…In countries like the Netherlands where you can travel peak for 4 hours from one end of the country to the other for €30, walk up fare.
Imagine passengers trying to use the same spin as these PR people: the law requiring a valid ticket is like sooo old and “outdated” so why should we have to have a ticket?! Simpler, better value.
The UK is around five times larger the Netherlands so a fare of £150 would be a fairer comparison.
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By choosing to pay more in buying on the day and avoiding Advances your needs seem very difficult to many passengers.
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johncrossley
Established Member
Do visitors to the UK think that being to return at little more than the cost of a single is a bargain, and wish they had it at home?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's mostly an anti fraud measure from the days when most stations were ungated. But also because single trips by definition can't be done by your own car so you've got a captive market and can charge more.
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More likely they think our singles are overpriced, Advances aside. For long distance, (Super) Off Peak Returns are borderline reasonable, anything else is just pricey.
I wonder if single trip pricing was how things currently worked in the UK and LNER had announced that it was going to (almost) double the price of single tickets but sell returns for the previous cost of two singles, how well that would have gone down here.
I suspect not well.
I suspect not well.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In the end objections here tend to be because people have worked out the best way to game the system and so obtain the best value, and so anything that removes that isn't appreciated. Thus there's a general conservatism with a rider of "it's not OK if one single person has to pay £0.01 more", which is impossible if you make changes to the fares system regardless of what they are (bar just reducing all fares across the board).
When first introduced, the equivalent of today's off-peak returns were an explicit discount on the cost of two singles. That connection has been lost over time, resulting in single fares now being reduced to half the off-peak return fare.
Didn't Virgin and GWR both try single leg pricing in the past (without removing the returns) and find that they had a revenue shortfall?
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