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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

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SuspectUsual

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2. Newsflash... Some of us actually think patriotism is a good thing and not some kind of dog-whistle. Seems to me pretty sad if you equate being proud of/loving your own country with some kind of extremism.

A basic form of patriotism is fine, but the issue here is that people on the right of the Conservative party are implying that those to the left of them are unpatriotic, which I don't suppose for a second is actually the case
 
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JamesT

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A basic form of patriotism is fine, but the issue here is that people on the right of the Conservative party are implying that those to the left of them are unpatriotic, which I don't suppose for a second is actually the case
Not everyone to the left of them, but there does seem to be a tendency of at least some of the left to regard the way other countries do things as automatically better without any seeming evaluation of the merits. To me that's unpatriotic. The extreme are those like Corbyn or George Galloway, who appear to cheer any cause that opposes the West.
 

najaB

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Not everyone to the left of them, but there does seem to be a tendency of at least some of the left to regard the way other countries do things as automatically better without any seeming evaluation of the merits.
This isn't exclusively a left-leaning thing, those on the right do it as well. The grass is always greener and all that.
 

simonw

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Doesn't work in this case. The market value of a company is basically the value of its assets plus the expectation of future profits. That means that, if the Government expects to pay at market rates to buy the companies by using future profits, then as a minimum, it will need to allocate the entire future profits to paying for the company (in practice, probably more than that to pay for the asset value too). There will be none left to reduce prices. So if Labour (under Corbyn, to be clear) expected to use the profits to do both, then it was planning to spend the same money twice.

The only way round it is if, by chance, at the time the Government was trying to renationalise the companies, the market happened to have grossly underestimated the value of those companies, in which case the Government would be able to get away with paying less. In practice, that's unlikely: Company share prices usually tend to rise and become over-valued if it's known that some entity is willing to buy them all.
The value of a company is either the current value of its assets in a willing buyer and willing seller transaction, or the discounted value of future forecast cashflow. Not both or you are double counting.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The value of a company is either the current value of its assets in a willing buyer and willing seller transaction, or the discounted value of future forecast cashflow. Not both or you are double counting.

Kinda. I probably should have been clearer that I was using the everyday, intuitive understanding of the words, so by assets, I meant fixed (physical) assets: Things like, as @Yew said, the (leaky ;) ) pipes, and by profits, I meant just the liquid profits as seen by the company bank accounts: Roughly, income minus expenditure. I think it's fair to separate those in the context of this discussion because when Labour was talking about paying to nationalize out of profits, they would certainly have only been talking about liquid profits, not about selling off the physical assets!

But in strict accounting terms, I believe you're correct, because any change in the value of fixed assets is considered as part of the company's profit and loss: If a company spends £1M on new machinery, then to the layman, that's £1M of expenditure, but to the accountant that's simply a change in assets from money in the bank to money tied up in machinery. So if you're using the more 'proper' accounting understanding, then yes, it would look like I had been double counting ;).
 

Yew

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I think it's fair to separate those in the context of this discussion because when Labour was talking about paying to nationalize out of profits, they would certainly have only been talking about liquid profits, not about selling off the physical assets!
Of course, only someone on the right would consider selling off assets as profits :D
 

nw1

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More dangerous authoritarianism from Anderson:


This quotes a tweet: (https://twitter.com/LeeAndersonMP_/status/1654785473867395073)
Not My King? If you do not wish to live in a country that has a monarchy the solution is not to turn up with your silly boards. The solution is to emigrate.

Now, I'm not an anti-monarchist. I am neutral on the matter and even watched the coronation earlier. King Charles is, in my view, really quite a decent person and I have no particular desire to see the end of the monarchy.

However if he thinks that republican protestors should leave the UK, he really does have a screw loose.

This also is very worrying:


To quote:
He asked whether there should be “zero-tolerance” of disruptive protests and urged Sir Mark to “leave the ivory tower and got out there and sorted these people out”.

“You’ve got the powers now to do this,” Mr Anderson said.

Of course, I am absolutely 100% sure that Anderson would not complain about loud pro-Brexit protests.

As far as I am concerned, Anderson is a dangerous hard-right authoritarian, who appears to want to silence certain political views. Telling the police how to do their job is not good, either; who does he think he is?

What the hell was Sunak playing at in appointing him? He's not fit to be a local councillor, never mind an MP.

I will finish by saying: King Charles is a good ambassador for the UK. Anderson, on the other hand, is absolutely shameful, and a complete embarrassment to the country.
 
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Yew

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More dangerous authoritarianism from Anderson:


This quotes a tweet: (https://twitter.com/LeeAndersonMP_/status/1654785473867395073)


Now, I'm not an anti-monarchist. I am neutral on the matter and even watched the coronation earlier. King Charles is, in my view, really quite a decent person and I have no particular desire to see the end of the monarchy.

However if he thinks that republican protestors should leave the UK, he really does have a screw loose.
I would suggest that Mr Anderson should review his English history, specifically the 30 January 1649, when the predecessor to the parliament he sits in executed King Charles I.
 

deltic

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More dangerous authoritarianism from Anderson:


This quotes a tweet: (https://twitter.com/LeeAndersonMP_/status/1654785473867395073)


Now, I'm not an anti-monarchist. I am neutral on the matter and even watched the coronation earlier. King Charles is, in my view, really quite a decent person and I have no particular desire to see the end of the monarchy.

However if he thinks that republican protestors should leave the UK, he really does have a screw loose.

This also is very worrying:


To quote:


Of course, I am absolutely 100% sure that Anderson would not complain about loud pro-Brexit protests.

As far as I am concerned, Anderson is a dangerous hard-right authoritarian, who appears to want to silence certain political views. Telling the police how to do their job is not good, either; who does he think he is?

What the hell was Sunak playing at in appointing him? He's not fit to be a local councillor, never mind an MP.

I will finish by saying: King Charles is a good ambassador for the UK. Anderson, on the other hand, is absolutely shameful, and a complete embarrassment to the country.
He is just playing to a certain audience, he just wants the publicity you are giving him
 

takno

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However if he thinks that republican protestors should leave the UK, he really does have a screw loose.
Anderson is a standard pub bore, and should be ignored as such. It is weird to hear him telling other people to emigrate though, when he's so happy about the government choosing to take away 27 of the best and easiest options for doing so. The pathetic lumbering buffoon really should make up his mind before people start to suspect that he doesn't have one.
 

nw1

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Anderson is a standard pub bore, and should be ignored as such. It is weird to hear him telling other people to emigrate though, when he's so happy about the government choosing to take away 27 of the best and easiest options for doing so. The pathetic lumbering buffoon really should make up his mind before people start to suspect that he doesn't have one.

Probably true, and admittedly I was having a bit of a rant after hearing this infuriating story. It's always concerning, however, when this sort of thing is coming out of someone in a senior position in the Tory Party; pub bores would rarely deliver their right wing drivel when acting professionally in their job roles, so neither should Anderson.

As I said, utterly unfit for office.
 
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takno

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As I said, utterly unfit for office.
He strikes me as the kind of pub bore who brings his own golly collection if the landlord hasn't provided one. Hard to blame him entirely on the Tories after he spent so many years in Labour, but I guess at least he wasn't given any kind of office there
 

najaB

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Hard to blame him entirely on the Tories after he spent so many years in Labour, but I guess at least he wasn't given any kind of office there
His views are nobody's fault except his own, however giving him a position of authority is 100% on the Tories.
 

nw1

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His views are nobody's fault except his own, however giving him a position of authority is 100% on the Tories.

Indeed. And this (along with Braverman, though she isn't quite as bad) is the prime reason why, in my eyes, Sunak is not all that much better than Johnson.

If Sunak really was a centre-right politician in the mould of Major and (yes, I know he has his own issues and I'm not a fan) Cameron, I doubt he would be promoting the likes of Anderson and Braverman to high office. It's still the same old rotten post-2019 party as far as I am concerned.
 

edwin_m

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Indeed. And this (along with Braverman, though she isn't quite as bad) is the prime reason why, in my eyes, Sunak is not all that much better than Johnson.

If Sunak really was a centre-right politician in the mould of Major and (yes, I know he has his own issues and I'm not a fan) Cameron, I doubt he would be promoting the likes of Anderson and Braverman to high office. It's still the same old rotten post-2019 party as far as I am concerned.
There's certainly still a fairly radical faction on the right who are holding Sunak hostage to keep their representatives in positions of authority, as they probably have the numbers to bring the government down if thwarted. Unfortunately pandering to these factions (and as Johnson did, throwing out many of the more moderates) simply encourages them.
 

nw1

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There's certainly still a fairly radical faction on the right who are holding Sunak hostage to keep their representatives in positions of authority, as they probably have the numbers to bring the government down if thwarted. Unfortunately pandering to these factions (and as Johnson did, throwing out many of the more moderates) simply encourages them.

Balanced against this, of course, is that the promotion of right-wing Tories will turn people off them in affluent but liberal southern seats - and, as they are also a party of cuts, they will not retain enough Red Wall seats to compensate for these losses.
 
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edwin_m

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Balanced against this, of course, is that the promotion of right-wing Tories will turn people off them in affluent but liberal southern seats - and, as they are also a party of cuts, they will not retain enough Red Wall seats to compensate for these losses.
Indeed. The circles on the Venn diagram are moving and the overlap that gave them power in 2019 is disappearing.
 

northwichcat

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If Sunak really was a centre-right politician in the mould of Major and (yes, I know he has his own issues and I'm not a fan) Cameron, I doubt he would be promoting the likes of Anderson and Braverman to high office.

I'm not sure about Cameron being centre-right. I recall a party political broadcast it showed him talking to a woman with savings, who had been affected by interest rates cuts. He responded by saying she shouldn't be penalised for doing the right thing by saving.

Yet, under Cameron, the Conservatives introduced Universal Credit and in doing so increased the number of people who either fail to qualify for benefits or get a reduced level because they have money in savings. Basically extending a policy that means people are penalised for saving, rather than splashing out on cars and holidays.

Cameron and Osborne also took a leaf out of the Thatcher book, in that they wanted to continue with austerity but the voters didn't, so they tried to make austerity fashionable, rather than changing their policy.
 

JamesT

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I'm not sure about Cameron being centre-right. I recall a party political broadcast it showed him talking to a woman with savings, who had been affected by interest rates cuts. He responded by saying she shouldn't be penalised for doing the right thing by saving.

Yet, under Cameron, the Conservatives introduced Universal Credit and in doing so increased the number of people who either fail to qualify for benefits or get a reduced level because they have money in savings. Basically extending a policy that means people are penalised for saving, rather than splashing out on cars and holidays.

Cameron and Osborne also took a leaf out of the Thatcher book, in that they wanted to continue with austerity but the voters didn't, so they tried to make austerity fashionable, rather than changing their policy.
Cameron was certainly on the ‘wet’ side of the party. Though I guess whether that’s centre-right depends on where you view the spread of the party.

Were there many benefits that didn’t already have savings limits or tapers that Universal Credit replaced? My recollection of the rhetoric around it was that it should make things fairer as income increased, though the Treasury meddled to make it less generous.

If the voters didn’t want to continue with austerity, why did they give Cameron a majority in 2015?
 

northwichcat

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Were there many benefits that didn’t already have savings limits or tapers that Universal Credit replaced? My recollection of the rhetoric around it was that it should make things fairer as income increased, though the Treasury meddled to make it less generous.

Tax credits were based on income only, savings was ignored.

Osborne also introduced the Lifetime ISA which meant, if used, people get a government bonus within a month of making a deposit. If it's being used for a deposit for a first home then £12,000 paid in by you means you're disqualified from Universal Credit, as the government add £4000 to your account, rather than you only getting the bonus when you take out a mortgage (as with Help2Buy). While if you use it for a retirement income, then it counts as saved income (including the bonus), unlike a pension scheme. A crafty way to make it look like the government is helping, just as long as you're not made redundant.

If the voters didn’t want to continue with austerity, why did they give Cameron a majority in 2015?

I referred to Cameron and Osborne changing the public's view on austerity (which was unpopular when Osborne introduced it), rather than changing the policy to what the public wanted. It was straight out of the Thatcher book, a tried and tested method. I'm completely lost as to why you asked that question in response. Have you forgotten that Thatcher successfully won three General Elections? She failed to get that idea to work with poll tax but managed to do it for numerous other policies that were unpopular at first.

But I'm sure the Conservative majority in 2015 had more to do with them promising an EU referendum, when Labour were saying a vote for us at the General Election is a vote to remain.
 

nw1

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If the voters didn’t want to continue with austerity, why did they give Cameron a majority in 2015?
It depends which voters, I think. One feature of 2015 was how slightly-right-of-centre-economically, affluent social liberals flocked to the Tories, more so than any other recent election. Such voters would presumably have been protected from the worst effects of austerity, and because Cameron was relatively socially liberal, there would have been no reactionary dogma to put them off.

In fact I suspect that the Tory-Labour split in 2015, more so than any other recent election, was strongly related to affluence.
 
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WelshBluebird

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If the voters didn’t want to continue with austerity, why did they give Cameron a majority in 2015?
If you look at overall percentage of the vote, the Tories got basically the same as they did in 2010. So I don't think you can claim and increase in support for them there. What did happen though is that the lib dem vote collapsed which led to a fair few seats that were Tory v Lib Dem close runs in 2010 becoming very solidly Tory in 2015 without the actual Tory vote increasing.

And if you want to ask why didn't the Tory vote decrease in 2015, well to be blunt people are often selfish and at that point in time austerity wasn't affecting the middle class as much as the current cost of living crisis is for example.
 

nw1

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But I'm sure the Conservative majority in 2015 had more to do with them promising an EU referendum, when Labour were saying a vote for us at the General Election is a vote to remain.

And this was of course the fatal mistake for the Cameron-Osborne project, and a monumentally stupid decision. If he hadn't done that, he'd have likely remained in power until 2020, and then wasn't the plan for Osborne to succeed him? Going off-topic a bit, I wonder who would have won a hypothetical general election in 2020 following 10 years of Cameron? Presumably it would have been Osborne v Corbyn, or might Labour have replaced Corbyn to boost their electoral chances? Let's also assume no Covid as well in this alternate reality, to avoid complicating things.

My guess: the Tories might have won again, just, perhaps without a majority, but Labour would then have regrouped, people would be fed up with Osborne by now, and we'd be approaching an election a little later than the planned one (2025) with similar prospects with what we actually have, i.e. Labour likely to win. However this would be with the critical difference of being still in the EU and with a much less reactionary, socially-right-wing Tory government.

I'm not sure whether the EU referendum had anything to do with them winning in 2015. I suspect it was more a case of the affluent, or even the middle, doing "well enough" and believing that austerity was the "medicine" needed to fix the economy. I know a few people with this kind of view - and as soon as the Tories started supporting Brexit post-2016, they turned against them.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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If you look at overall percentage of the vote, the Tories got basically the same as they did in 2010. So I don't think you can claim and increase in support for them there. What did happen though is that the lib dem vote collapsed which led to a fair few seats that were Tory v Lib Dem close runs in 2010 becoming very solidly Tory in 2015 without the actual Tory vote increasing.

I think it's more complex than that. It's true that the Tory vote share was almost unchanged in 2015 (very slightly up), but that was despite UKIP coming from nowhere to take 12.6% of the vote. A lot of those UKIP votes would have been defections from the Tories, which means in turn that a lot of other people must have swapped from Labour/the LibDems to the Tories in order to keep the Tory vote share steady.

Personally I think the key thing was that David Cameron simply came across at the time as a more credible Prime Minister than Ed Miliband (people will of course have different views about whether subsequent events justified that perception ;) ). That plus the LibDems had made themselves hugely unpopular with their u-turn on tuition fees causing people to see them as unprincipled, and some of their lost votes would have gone to the Tories.
 

takno

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I'm not sure whether the EU referendum had anything to do with them winning in 2015. I suspect it was more a case of the affluent, or even the middle, doing "well enough" and believing that austerity was the "medicine" needed to fix the economy. I know a few people with this kind of view - and as soon as the Tories started supporting Brexit post-2016, they turned against them.
Tend to agree with that. If anybody at the election had thought there was any meaningful prospect of leave winning then the Tories would have lost the election - too much of their support base was anti-Brexit, and prior to the referendum campaign the red wall wasn't exactly all that bothered about it as an issue
 

jfollows

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I'm not sure whether the EU referendum had anything to do with them winning in 2015. I suspect it was more a case of the affluent, or even the middle, doing "well enough" and believing that austerity was the "medicine" needed to fix the economy. I know a few people with this kind of view - and as soon as the Tories started supporting Brexit post-2016, they turned against them.
Yes, that's reasonable enough. I didn't vote Tory in 2015 (I voted LibDem because I though they'd done a good job in coalition) but I wasn't unhappy with the election result. I just assumed that the promise of a vote on leaving the EU was to keep the loonies on-side and it wouldn't end up changing anything, and it really didn't influence my vote at all.
 

deltic

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I think it's more complex than that. It's true that the Tory vote share was almost unchanged in 2015 (very slightly up), but that was despite UKIP coming from nowhere to take 12.6% of the vote. A lot of those UKIP votes would have been defections from the Tories, which means in turn that a lot of other people must have swapped from Labour/the LibDems to the Tories in order to keep the Tory vote share steady.

Personally I think the key thing was that David Cameron simply came across at the time as a more credible Prime Minister than Ed Miliband (people will of course have different views about whether subsequent events justified that perception ;) ). That plus the LibDems had made themselves hugely unpopular with their u-turn on tuition fees causing people to see them as unprincipled, and some of their lost votes would have gone to the Tories.
A lot of UKIP voters previously voted Labour - people underestimate how conservative, especially older working class voters are.
 

GS250

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A lot of UKIP voters previously voted Labour - people underestimate how conservative, especially older working class voters are.

Socially conservative. Yes.

But maybe economically slightly left of centre?
 
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