Class 379 Miscellanea

[Tottenham Flyer]

That's why I wondered if they had the buttons, like the Victoria/S Stock trains, which are positioned for easy access by children. I believe covers were put on, but I am still sure they're going to be a problem.

Now if someone is pulling the more traditional alarms, that's quite worrying. Is that a general problem on your route? Why would people do it on a new train for no reason?

Who knows. As O L Leigh will tell you, vandalism of any nature is not uncommon on the West Anglia route.

However, it didn't become apparent a pass comm had been activated until the driver tried closing the doors and couldn't gain interlock. When the train arrived at Tottenham, it did take a few minutes to get the doors open so maybe a passenger hit the alarm then.

I think this is a problem we're going to get a lot of as the pass comms do not have covers. It's just a button thats just as easy to press like the door open buttons.

 

[jon0844]

That's crazy! I (and others) brought this up when there was a dummy S Stock train at Euston, and it was talked about on forums. I was then told that adding covers was the solution. Surely NXEA should have heard about this - or been offered covers in the design put forward by Bombardier.

Without covers, these buttons will get pressed by accident by kids standing on the seats and looking out of the window etc.

 

[O L Leigh]

It doesn't help that the TCMS is still full of bugs, particularly where the doors are concerned. It seems to be very difficult to persuade these units to give a door release at almost any location along the WA route, though Tottenham Hale does appear to be particularly troublesome. This is inevitably going to lead to passcoms and emergency egress handles being used by impatient passengers. Quite what the problem is I cannot say, but I hope that a solution is found soon before more of these units find their way into traffic.

The WA gets it's fair share of vandalism and the like, but it's probably no worse than any other equivalent route into London. Passcoms don't often get pulled. Or at least that is my experience.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Ah, so there's a chance passengers are intentionally pulling/pushing the alarms because the doors don't open straight away.

I wonder if that was happening in the 377s when introduced on the Thameslink route, especially at Farringdon and St Pancras.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps. However, the times I've had to reset the emergency buttons in the disabled toilet of a Cl317/7 when there has been no emergency suggest to me that the passengers don't know what they are. I've not had any training on the Cl379's though, so I'm just speculating.

O L Leigh

 

[Flywaver]

In Central days we had no end of passcoms pressed in disabled toilet on 170s.
Many thought it was toilet flush or door open button no doubt.
On refurbishment under XC the passcom was raised and highlighted better.
This has been a major improvement. Although I'm sure a law restricts flap covers?
I'm afraid on the 379s it's going to be a major headache as Kids mucking about plus your Airport traveller not knowing what button they have pressed....Enjoy

 

[87015]

The door problems at Tottenham Hale are believed to be due to issues with getting signals from the GPS dods, same problem as at St Pancake LL on FCC.

Pulling a few alarms is about the 'nicest' thing the kiddies get up to on WA...!

 

[STN commuter]

It doesn't help that the TCMS is still full of bugs, particularly where the doors are concerned. It seems to be very difficult to persuade these units to give a door release at almost any location along the WA route, though Tottenham Hale does appear to be particularly troublesome. This is inevitably going to lead to passcoms and emergency egress handles being used by impatient passengers. Quite what the problem is I cannot say, but I hope that a solution is found soon before more of these units find their way into traffic.


O L Leigh

As a daily Stansted Airport to Liverpool St commuter, may I second that :cry:

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

As a daily Stansted Airport to Liverpool St commuter, may I second that :cry:

Look at it this way, the 379's have come into service 2 months earlier than originally thought. Let's hope by the May timetable change, the fault has been sorted out and the 379's will be the fantastic new trains for the Stansted Express everyone hoped!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Railway]

Pictures from the 379 launch on 17th March:

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h375ffd4

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h7177580

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h1ce36de9

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h1b35e38c

 

[jon0844]

Look at it this way, the 379's have come into service 2 months earlier than originally thought. Let's hope by the May timetable change, the fault has been sorted out and the 379's will be the fantastic new trains for the Stansted Express everyone hoped!

It will be somewhat ironic if these trains cause problems because of silly (tiny) things like poor passenger alarm button design/positioning or door opening issues - which you'd think had been sorted since similar implementations at Victoria and St Pancras.

Does the industry ever learn anything from the past?!

But, I'm still looking forward to seeing one and hopefully being able to travel on one that starts and stops where it's supposed to, and when it's supposed to!

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

But, I'm still looking forward to seeing one and hopefully being able to travel on one that starts and stops where it's supposed to, and when it's supposed to!

Ah that's where the 379's and the 09 stock on the Victoria line differ. The 379's stop where they're supposed to. It's just that the doors either won't open or close!



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[STN commuter]

Pictures from the 379 launch on 17th March:

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h375ffd4

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h7177580

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h1ce36de9

http://upmain.zenfolio.com/p793657826/h375ffd4#h1b35e38c

Assuming a typo in the first photo caption that it is the 16:55 not 16:45, I was sitting on the 16:55 on 17 March and never even noticed the Cl379 on the platform next door
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Look at it this way, the 379's have come into service 2 months earlier than originally thought. Let's hope by the May timetable change, the fault has been sorted out and the 379's will be the fantastic new trains for the Stansted Express everyone hoped!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On the other hand, if the TCMS is "full of bugs", maybe they shouldn't be conveying passengers yet - certainly not those that have flights they can miss

Let the Cambridge line passengers debug them first then we'll have them

Reminds me of British Leyland cars in the 70's when owners did the final reliability testing

 

[Peter Sarf]

Reminds me of British Leyland cars in the 70's when owners did the final reliability testing

I cannot help wondering if that might actually be progress .

On the subject of SDO. We still have to wait, on arrival, for the 377s SDO to decide we are at Victoria (Western side - i.e. South Central). This is, apparently, because the GPS signal cannot get through the retail development built above the platforms so as to make that side of the station an oppressive hole. that affects an awfully large number of trains and passsengers. I have wondered whether a dummy satellite could be positioned inside the bad signal area to fool the GPS ?. I wonder if someone (a hacker) could emulate one easily ?. It does not matter how long the platform is as it is reasonable to suppose that the SDO would not even know it is at a station let alone how long the platform is. Track-side balises might have been a better idea with hindight.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't that already how it works at Victoria and St Pancras?

 

[jopsuk]

is there now a second training diagram? Saw one at Whittlesford just after 1700 (fits the diagram above) but there had been one through about an hour earlier as well- given it is 37 minutes one way at that time of day (with all services stopping) and 28 (when there's faster services), seems unlikely it was the same unit?

 

[Class377/5]

Ah, so there's a chance passengers are intentionally pulling/pushing the alarms because the doors don't open straight away.

I wonder if that was happening in the 377s when introduced on the Thameslink route, especially at Farringdon and St Pancras.

Actually pass com pulls was never the problem at Farringdon or St Pancras with the 377/5. Farringdon was down to an issue with the DC voltage being too high and the MITRAC system wouldn't accept it. As for St Pancras see below.

The door problems at Tottenham Hale are believed to be due to issues with getting signals from the GPS dods, same problem as at St Pancake LL on FCC.

Not really. But I wonder if Bombardier haven't learnt from the 377/5 problems. Basically the problem at St Pancras was tracked down to the OHLE interferring with the signal from the SDO beacons trackside. This problem has never come up before as Electrostars never worked on OHLE underground.

It seems to be very difficult to persuade these units to give a door release at almost any location along the WA route, though Tottenham Hale does appear to be particularly troublesome.

Now this made me think of the problem at St Pancras, the problem of the OHLE equipment affecting the SDO gear is still in the process of being fixed (hell a major physical mod was even tried). It is still the case they are not working properly but the software on the 377/5 combined with driver training and experience has reduced the problems down a hell of a lot. But there are still delays when the units hit.

I wonder if the OHLE is affecting the gear on the 379's but then again the 377/5 aren't too bad once they get a GPS signal. Is there any issue with station building/design blocking the GPS?

 

[jon0844]

Large metal/glass walls possibly acting like a sort of faraday cage? Bit of a longshot, but who knows?

 

[jopsuk]

the panes of glass at Tottenham Hale are quite large- for a metal grid structure to block radio waves, the "holes" have to be smaller than the wavelength of the signal. For the GPS signals, the wavelengths are about 19-25 cm.

The roofs over the platforms WILL block signals, so it comes down to line of sight.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

is there now a second training diagram? Saw one at Whittlesford just after 1700 (fits the diagram above) but there had been one through about an hour earlier as well- given it is 37 minutes one way at that time of day (with all services stopping) and 28 (when there's faster services), seems unlikely it was the same unit?

Yeah there are two driver training diagrams. They run depending on unit and driver availability. The units you saw today were 007 and 008. 005 and 006 did the passenger runs tonight and performed faultlessly.

 

[jon0844]

the panes of glass at Tottenham Hale are quite large- for a metal grid structure to block radio waves, the "holes" have to be smaller than the wavelength of the signal. For the GPS signals, the wavelengths are about 19-25 cm.

The roofs over the platforms WILL block signals, so it comes down to line of sight.

I couldn't quite picture the size of the metal and glass in my head - I don't use that line very often at all now.

But, am I right in thinking that GPS isn't so much blocked as reflected which could cause problems? Modern receivers should be able to cope, but maybe these don't - or at least it takes longer to get an accurate fix.

 

[O L Leigh]

The door problems at Tottenham Hale are believed to be due to issues with getting signals from the GPS dods.

GPS dods...?

As far as I understand it there are no lineside beacons. The system works by using GPS signals to "know" where it is, the same as the satnav in your car. It's been told the coordinates of the mid-points of every station platform and, provided the train is within a certain distance of those coordinates, the doors should release.

What I'm given to understand with these units (probably the same with the Cl377's) is that when it loses the GPS signal it will not permit the driver to release the doors. When this happens it will show on the TCMS as "Unknown Location". The driver should then be able to select the location from a menu and then the doors should release. Failing that he can manually select the doors to release and/or give an emergency release. The big issue with the Cl379's at the present moment is that the TCMS is not consistently bringing up these options and not even allowing the driver to give an emergency release, to the extent that every unit has a travelling fitter.

Quite why Tottenham Hale should be a problem I just don't know. The roof and glass walls don't even extend to the 4 car board let alone the 8 car board, so I don't think that is the problem. Likewise the PIS seems to know where it is and makes the correct announcement, and that relies on GPS too. In addition, one of our DI's was involved in testing the SDO/GPS interface using Tottenham Hale to check that it wouldn't release the doors until the train was stopped within the defined distance from the platform mid-point and he said it all worked just fine and dandy. So I'm inclined to point the finger at the TCMS.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

the GPS could be part of the reason for the odd behaviour I saw at Whittlesford. The previous times I've seen the southbound train draw to a standstill at the 8/12 car stop, under the A505. Yesterday, I saw it halt much further down the platform- about where the rear unit would be in a 12 car formation- there's no "stop" boards back there. The door release lights actually came on, followed very swiftly by the hustle alarm- the other reason I can see for doing this at the far end of the platform is a lack of people down there, so no chance of accidental boarders.

 

[O L Leigh]

The other reason I can see for doing this at the far end of the platform is a lack of people down there, so no chance of accidental boarders.

That's the reason.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Hoping to see a 379 today, I headed over to LST but didn't find one there for the next two Stansted services, so I just took the first available train up to Tottenham Hale to double back to Finsbury Park by tube.

I thought I'd take some photos of Tottenham Hale to show what it looks like for talking about the door opening problem - but noticed something else: When the hell did those new apartments go up?! hock:

One other thing; I thought I read that internal doors had to be present and shut for fire regulations? On the train I took (1658 to King's Lynn: 317 881), there was one door missing as I walked through the train, and then both doors missing between the two country end carriages. Are these trying to become like 378s?!

Anyway, back on topic:

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Hoping to see a 379 today, I headed over to LST but didn't find one there for the next two Stansted services, so I just took the first available train up to Tottenham Hale to double back to Finsbury Park by tube.

I thought I'd take some photos of Tottenham Hale to show what it looks like for talking about the door opening problem - but noticed something else: When the hell did those new apartments go up?! hock:

One other thing; I thought I read that internal doors had to be present and shut for fire regulations? On the train I took (1658 to King's Lynn: 317 881), there was one door missing as I walked through the train, and then both doors missing between the two country end carriages. Are these trying to become like 378s?!

Anyway, back on topic:

View attachment 4607 View attachment 4608 View attachment 4609

Those flats have been there a while now, and they're a pain in the a***. We get limited sunlight in the station, and they're student flats so they're not very quiet.

I believe the block that's currently being built next to the finished block will be for people to buy and live in rather than be student accommodation.

I'm not sure how the 379's stand for tomorrow as Modern Railways have their trip tomorrow to Stansted. Not sure if the units are back in time. Will post on here if I know anymore tomorrow.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well none were available for running today, so make of that what you will. However, I hope that the travelling fitter is with the train this time or at least knows it's stopping pattern so that he can meet it en route.

O L Leigh

 

[Wigan Wanderer]

379010+379011 on today's Crewe-Rugby milage accumulation runs. At Crewe now.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Well none were available for running today, so make of that what you will. However, I hope that the travelling fitter is with the train this time or at least knows it's stopping pattern so that he can meet it en route.

O L Leigh

Ouch!

Could that mean a press trip to Stansted on a 317?

That would send a strong message to the industry following NX's failure to prequalify for the next Greater Anglian franchise.

I'll be on the Modern Railways trip today and had been looking forward to my first jaunt of a 379. Hope it goes ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ouch!

Could that mean a press trip to Stansted on a 317?

That would send a strong message to the industry following NX's failure to prequalify for the next Greater Anglian franchise.

I'll be on the Modern Railways trip today and had been looking forward to my first jaunt of a 379. Hope it goes ahead.

On the train now. Wi-Fi working very nicely.

First impressions - very nice. Firm seating, which suits me, but won't suit everybody.

On the subject of GPS, if it won't work at Tottenham Hale, how ever does it work at Stansted, which is completely covered?

 

[jopsuk]

There's one (or more) been on the driver training runs to Cambridge all day.