I was just given a fine at Stansted Airport, was in a rush to catch a plane so panicked. The inspector bullied me into giving a UK address but I don’t live there. I gave my friend’s address but I found out they are moving in July. If they don’t get my letter by then, what can I do to get the details of the penalty so that I can pay it?
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How to find penalty notice ID?
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Mzzzs
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Were you given any papers?
Nothing, I had to fill out a little paper with my details, then she asked me questions that can be used in court and then she got me to sign it, that’s it. I suffer from anxiety and was rushing for my flight so I was just overwhelmed but now I’m kicking myself why didn’t I question the fact that I couldn’t pay the penalty fare upfront. I would be totally fine but now this headache!
Mzzzs
Member
You need to contact the company and explain the situation.
gray1404
Established Member
The inspector should not have been pushing you to give a UK address if you simply do not have one.
Out of interest why were you reported? I assume that a report will have been made (MG11?) with a view to prosecution, however, in the vast majority of cases an administrative penalty is offered in lieu of an actual prosecution.
A penalty fare is technically a way for those passengers who have made a genuine mistake to rectify the situation by paying a higher than normal fare (currently £100 but reduced to £50 if paid promptly). Those are generally not offered to passengers who are suspected of more serious offences where a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the correct fare is suspected. And that is potentially one reason why you were not offered one. However, we will not know until we receive more information from you.
A penalty fare is technically a way for those passengers who have made a genuine mistake to rectify the situation by paying a higher than normal fare (currently £100 but reduced to £50 if paid promptly). Those are generally not offered to passengers who are suspected of more serious offences where a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the correct fare is suspected. And that is potentially one reason why you were not offered one. However, we will not know until we receive more information from you.
Mzzzs
Member
There has to be more to this, of course. I could be wrong, but from my memory, this kind of situation would typically be dealt with by way of a penalty fare.
I suspect the inspectors think there is more to the situation, which may be why no penalty fare was issued.
I suspect the inspectors think there is more to the situation, which may be why no penalty fare was issued.
Sorry for the lack of information. I used to live in the UK and relocated at the end of last year. Whilst living in the UK, I had a railcard 26-30. My Trainline app setting was still set up to apply the discount even when the railcard expired almost a year ago. I genuinely overlooked this when I bought the ticket so I apologised to the inspector for the mistake and I was ok with the consequences. However, I really don’t understand why I had to give a UK address when I don’t reside there anymore. I gave her my genuine address abroad and had an ID card to prove it but she would not have it so I had to give her my friend’s address. I feel this is very wrong. Now I’m worried that if I don’t get the letter in time I won’t be able to action it.
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I understand now why penalty fare wasn’t issued. Just provided more info in the thread. However, I still don’t know why I had to give a UK address and of course with my luck I gave an address that is due to be changed! Would you know how long does it usually take to get the letter?
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Snow1964
Established Member
The Op lives abroad, they offered their address, but Inspector wanted a fake UK address instead. This doesn't make sense.
They will probably write to your friend, who could simply throw the letter in the bin, or write not known at this address on outside of envelope and post it back. If it arrives after your friend has moved that is almost certainly what new owners of the house will do as they would never have heard of you. Letters typically take 2 months but can be upto 5-6 months.
If you are permanently abroad, they will be wasting admin time following it up as they will never go as far as getting an International arrest or debt warrant.
Bit stupid if you live abroad not to have charged you the £50 penalty on a card and closed the case, rather than waste admin staff time.
Probably best to advise your friend to return letter as not known at address. But others will advise further
They will probably write to your friend, who could simply throw the letter in the bin, or write not known at this address on outside of envelope and post it back. If it arrives after your friend has moved that is almost certainly what new owners of the house will do as they would never have heard of you. Letters typically take 2 months but can be upto 5-6 months.
If you are permanently abroad, they will be wasting admin time following it up as they will never go as far as getting an International arrest or debt warrant.
Bit stupid if you live abroad not to have charged you the £50 penalty on a card and closed the case, rather than waste admin staff time.
Probably best to advise your friend to return letter as not known at address. But others will advise further
That’s what I was trying to tell the inspector that I do not have an address in the UK but she just repeated her spiel over and over again. I was so gullible and said truthfully that I stayed over with a friend during that time so she got their address from me but what if I stayed in a hotel this time or didn’t know any addresses of my friends then what else would I have to give? It really upset me because she wouldn’t listen to what I was saying, that I don’t live there and I am literally about to miss a flight to my home country where I actually live.
Mcr Warrior
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Was issuing a Penalty Fare ever going to be appropriate? The OP seems to have travelled on a railcard discounted ticket, without holding an actual, in date, valid railcard.
some bloke
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You can write to the company, explain the situation, and propose that they contact you by email.
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If you post a draft on here people can comment on it.
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Leave out any complaint about the inspector's behaviour, which would be a separate matter for separate staff to look at if you later consider that it's worthwhile. Her behaviour may not be so unreasonable if inspectors have experience of successfully pushing for people's real addresses after they say they live abroad.
You can write that you gave your correct address abroad and only gave the UK address because the inspector requested it. Hopefully they will view you as cooperative for writing to them. It's best to read back what you write carefully, trying to avoid any impression that you misled the inspector in any way.
If you have used wrongly-discounted tickets for trips other than this one, you may want to bear that in mind when you reply - as well as the fact that the company can get your Trainline purchase history.
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The risks of advising your friend to bin or send back the company's letter/s may include you being put on a list of people to watch out for, so that you may not be let off for any future technical breaches of the law if/when you are in the UK. For that and other reasons it seems to me wise not to advise your friend to do either without careful consideration/expert advice.
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Did this happen yesterday? You could write down in detail what happened, with what the inspector and you said, while it is fresh in your mind.
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WesternLancer
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Sounds bonkers to me that at an airport of all places staff would not have a procedure for dealing with people who have no UK address!
anyway @Doomed - you do have the option of setting up a Royal Mail redirect to an overseas address - se link below - only aspect of this that could be an issue is the time delay - ie post has to go out to the local postal sorting office for the UK address you gave, intercepted internally and then sent to an address aboard, then rely on speed of the post in your country to reach you. Whereas usually the railway demands replies to the letters they send about possible fare evasion in 14 days - so the advice in post #12 might be preferable - OR you could do both.
Assume you did not give a false name (ie your friends name) - as if not it's entirely reasonable to set up a forwarding in your own name from that address to where you live overseas. Obv I would explain to your friend what is going on. Or I suppose you could apply for a postal forward for a person with that false name...
If you don't engage with it there is the risk of the matter just being escalated to court and eventually bailiffs could turn up at your friends address looking for the payment of the court fine that will be issued.
How long will it take? Might be up to 6 months but probably more like 2 months so your friend may not have moved anyway - which allows you to hold back on paying Royal Mail to redirect if your friend can help before they move in July - eg open any post, scan it and send it you so you can reply etc.
Obv when you get the letter you can also head back here for advice on how best to reply to it to minimise any further -ve consequences for you.
anyway @Doomed - you do have the option of setting up a Royal Mail redirect to an overseas address - se link below - only aspect of this that could be an issue is the time delay - ie post has to go out to the local postal sorting office for the UK address you gave, intercepted internally and then sent to an address aboard, then rely on speed of the post in your country to reach you. Whereas usually the railway demands replies to the letters they send about possible fare evasion in 14 days - so the advice in post #12 might be preferable - OR you could do both.
Assume you did not give a false name (ie your friends name) - as if not it's entirely reasonable to set up a forwarding in your own name from that address to where you live overseas. Obv I would explain to your friend what is going on. Or I suppose you could apply for a postal forward for a person with that false name...
If you don't engage with it there is the risk of the matter just being escalated to court and eventually bailiffs could turn up at your friends address looking for the payment of the court fine that will be issued.
How long will it take? Might be up to 6 months but probably more like 2 months so your friend may not have moved anyway - which allows you to hold back on paying Royal Mail to redirect if your friend can help before they move in July - eg open any post, scan it and send it you so you can reply etc.
Obv when you get the letter you can also head back here for advice on how best to reply to it to minimise any further -ve consequences for you.
Sorry, it was my fault for not putting information in my OP so I think they were replying to my first question in which I didn’t yet understand the difference between a penalty fare and prosecution.
Mcr Warrior
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Not particularly cheap, though, it's £133 for 3 months, or £191 for 6 months.
Snow1964
Established Member
You are correct with your logic, if you had stayed in a hotel, that would have been your only UK address. Had you been on a day trip or business meeting etc going home same day, wouldn't even have had that.
Does seem odd they insist on an address that you are not at, and don't want your real address (even if it is abroad).
I don't think they have been particularly helpful here, so you now having to supply an email instead if they wouldn't take it before does seem bonkers. This is box ticking before common sense.
Snow1964
Established Member
Why would anyone pay money to redirect mail from an address they have never lived at.
And anyway wouldn't meet evidence conditions to be able to do it.
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WesternLancer
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indeed
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Well I know what you mean but presumably for some reason where they felt it was worth doing so to prevent the consequences of court action on them in future - and the costs of sorting that out?
It sounds to me like the OP has been entered into the standard 'Reported for Prosecution' process by the Railway company staff member here (I presume Anglia Railways). Some people who are not UK residents (we don't know if the OP is a UK citizen) might just think - 'I'll forget about it' and hope it goes away, others may not. I assume the OP is erring against the 'I'll forget about it' option since they have posted on here for advice.
I suspect the reality is a strong chance that the letters will be received at the friend's address before there friend moves in July anyway 0 and thus paying Royal Mail will not be necessary - but otherwise it is the only option I know of to get the post, which is thus my answer to the question originally posed "If they don’t get my letter by then, what can I do to get the details of the penalty so that I can pay it?"
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Thank you for this, I will write to them following your points. I have left the country and only used the train yesterday, hence the railcard being expired - it has never happened to me before and my Trainline app shows it.
My friend will kindly check for any mail for me and will send a picture of it if they receive it. I would not have been able to live with a knowledge that there is some outstanding prosecution against me.
some bloke
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When the company acknowledges that your address is abroad and not in the UK, it will be their responsibility to contact you and not to rely on sending anything to your friend. You can then tell your friend there's no need to check mail for you.
The company may immediately offer a settlement (ie fare plus higher-than-you'd-like admin charges) when you make clear you live abroad.
If you put a draft on here with explanation, apology, an offer to pay the fare and admin costs and a commitment to check ticket validity on future visits to the UK, then with comments from people on here that may do the trick. Including a couple of photos of relevant documents may help them to do what you want.
In case you aren't aware, you're technically guilty of a criminal offence under the Railway Byelaws regardless of it being a mistake (whether we think that's reasonable is a different matter) but companies often like to settle instead of taking cases to court.
The fact that this was the only occasion is useful.
The company may immediately offer a settlement (ie fare plus higher-than-you'd-like admin charges) when you make clear you live abroad.
If you put a draft on here with explanation, apology, an offer to pay the fare and admin costs and a commitment to check ticket validity on future visits to the UK, then with comments from people on here that may do the trick. Including a couple of photos of relevant documents may help them to do what you want.
In case you aren't aware, you're technically guilty of a criminal offence under the Railway Byelaws regardless of it being a mistake (whether we think that's reasonable is a different matter) but companies often like to settle instead of taking cases to court.
The fact that this was the only occasion is useful.
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I do not think @Doomed has this option at all. As he explained, he does not live in the UK, but the RPI would not accept this and nonetheless insisted he gave a UK address - so he gave his friend's address where he was staying while on holidays.
To apply for redirection on paper requires proof of address - two utility bills, or a council tax book, or a bank/credit card/mortgage statement. To apply online requires a UK credit or debit card registered at either your old or new address, and to pass an ID check with one of the credit bureaus (I think TransUnion).
Neither of those will be reasonably possible for someone who hasn't actually lived at the address they want their mail redirected from. Even if his friend redirects his mail when he moves himself, the above would still be required in respect of @Doomed for his mail to be redirected unless they share the same surname.
Doubleplus
Member
You cannot redirect mail from an address that you do not have proof of living at.
It sounds like the railway has through their own actions lost any chance they may have had of recovering the - guessing - less than £10 shortfall between a railcard discounted ticket and the full fare, plus whatever other bogus sums they feel entitled to on top. Hard to feel sympathetic when the passenger was entirely open and honest about the situation.
(This is of course also another entry in the “maybe if the Trainline put more effort into not selling people the wrong tickets, they wouldn’t have so many irregular purchases to report to their railway chums later on” file.)
Gobsmacked really, especially given where it happened.
Although I strongly suspect the purchase of a railcard previously presents some element of doubt as to the lack of a UK address.
I think a large proportion of society assumes everyone lives 'normal' lives... resident in the UK, resident at addresses for long periods of time and anything outside that is deemed a red-flag. Whereas, in reality a lot of people now don't have addresses they occupy for significant periods even if they're resident Brits. It's not abnormal by any stretch.
Although I strongly suspect the purchase of a railcard previously presents some element of doubt as to the lack of a UK address.
I think a large proportion of society assumes everyone lives 'normal' lives... resident in the UK, resident at addresses for long periods of time and anything outside that is deemed a red-flag. Whereas, in reality a lot of people now don't have addresses they occupy for significant periods even if they're resident Brits. It's not abnormal by any stretch.
I think we have to revert to the original advice. OP should write to the company, perhaps addressing it to "Prosecutions Dept" explaining the situation, including the fact that the inspector insisted on a UK address and that the correct overseas address was given. I'm sure forum members can come up with a credible address for the TOC
RPI
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I would say under the circumstances a fully paid PF or a new ticket would have been appropriate.
The OP runs the risk of being prosecuted in their absence and having issues getting back into the UK if this is ignored.
gray1404
Established Member
Am I correcting saying though that if a penalty fair is offered it does not have to be paid on the spot and indeed can be appealed?
It would be dreadful if a customer was offered a penalty fair that then this was withdrawn instantly once the customer said they only wanted to provide details and appeal rather than pay on the spot.
RPI
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Yes correct, as per the rules it can be paid within 21 days.
RPI
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There is no straight answer really, generally something that would need further investigation, but that is subjective.
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