Heathrow Express travellers defecting to Elizabeth line

[zwk500]

Revenues down by a third, HEx management quoted in the article that they’re confident it will recover - doesn’t exactly sound like they’re at all worried.

Because of course no management has ever been wrong before....

I’ve said elsewhere on the forum before - Crossrail isn’t some surprise market disruptor nobody was expecting. HEx have been planning for Crossrail’s arrival and consequent poaching of custom for over a decade. So long as Revenue matches or beats the predictions they’ve been making for the past decade, then why would it go anywhere?

Crossrail might be a distraction from the big market disruptor - COVID. The clear and undeniable demonstration of the feasibility of remote working has massively shaken up business policies towards travel.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

 

[zwk500]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

But it does get a direct service straight to Bond Street, The City, the Docklands, and Stratford. Key destination areas for people flying in to the UK.

Paris's Charles De Gaulle Airport is linked to the City Centre by RER only, the TGV station largely serving connections avoiding Paris.
Amsterdam Schiphol has Non-stop trains but they're not dedicated Airport links , and is better served by rail partly because it's got the good fortune to be conveniently located on the Dutch rail network.
Frankfurt does have non-stop trains to the Hbf but they're ICE and not dedicated and the primary connection is on the S-Bahn.
The dedicated FEX for Berlin will make stops on the way in as well.
And JFK's primary link to NYC dumps you at Jamaica or Howard Beach and you have to change onto the LIRR or Subway to actually get to Manhattan.

In the context a train that takes you right into the heart of the city with half a dozen stops isn't disastrously bad. Although it would be far better if paths could be found for Crossrail to do a Heathrow-(Southall)-Ealing Broadway-Acton Main Line-Core train.

 

[matt_world2004]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

I think it's very poor that the first impression tourists get of the UK is a rail service charging close to £2 a mile

 

[zwk500]

I think it's very poor that the first impression tourists get of the UK is a rail service charging close to £2 a mile

Better to set expectations of London straight from the off, though, eh?

 

[43066]

You're right to a point, nobody *has* to pay, but if you *have* to get somewhere and there's a choice between what are effectively two very similar services - they're both trains, they both go to the same place, but one of them goes to lots of useful places versus a premium one that just goes to Paddington...

… You’d use the cheaper option that’s still useful, or potentially more useful in this case, as you avoid a change at Paddington. I completely agree, and that’s exactly what HEX are now finding out.

HEX always seemed way overpriced for what it was on the few occasions I've had to use it - someone else paid in those circumstances, but even then having to change at Paddington was a pain.

Arlanda is the other one that annoys me ... that is expensive. I've got one friend who switched to flying to Bromma just to avoid it (fares were similar). Copenhagen and Helsinki are very nice as they're both on commuter lines and priced accordingly.

It’s annoying where there’s no option, and it could be argued a captive market is being exploited, but anyone who has done a modicum of research before arriving at Heathrow should know that HEX is only one of several modes of onward travel, so there’s no excuse for being caught out! Most airports I’ve visited around the world have expensive and budget options for those who have done some research, and are cost conscious.

 

[ExRes]

I think it's very poor that the first impression tourists get of the UK is a rail service charging close to £2 a mile

Not if they've bought a coffee and sandwich before getting the train, they'll be well into being ripped off by that stage

Just out of interest will there be job losses if HEX is done away with or will the staff be employed by GWR?

 

[michael8]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

I agree

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think it's very poor that the first impression tourists get of the UK is a rail service charging close to £2 a mile

At the moment they have a choice between a fast service and a cheap service.

 

[43066]

Just out of interest will there be job losses if HEX is done away with or will the staff be employed by GWR?

The drivers (and possibly others) already are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

At the moment they have a choice between a fast service and a cheap service.

And if enough continue to choose to take the expensive service it will be retained. Difficult to see why it should be preserved if very few use it in future, and the paths could be better utilised elsewhere, however.

 

[ExRes]

The drivers (and possibly others) already are.

Thanks, that's good news anyway

 

[Djgr]

At the moment they have a choice between a fast service and a cheap service.

A fast service to Paddington and almost nowhere else. I think it is not long for this world.

 

[Kite159]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

On rolling stock which lacks basics like luggage racks, toilets or even charging points.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On rolling stock which lacks basics like luggage racks, toilets or even charging points.

Yes well said, I had forgotten that point actually.

 

[Failed Unit]

At the moment they have a choice between a fast service and a cheap service.

But the fast service doesn't go to anywhere useful which is why people are moving to the cheap service. Even if the price was the same, I would never use HeX again as it dumps me at Paddington and I need to get alternative transport to get to where I need to go. Either a Taxi (to sit in traffic) or a tube. At least with cross rail I can now get to the majority of places I want to go with either 1 change or a reasonable walk so don't need to bother with Taxis. The Bakerloo line out of Paddington is the only one with good frequency. The Hammersmith & City seems to be fairly infrequent by underground standards and painfully slow. Certainly Cross-rail will beat HeX to Farringdon by any combination of transport from Paddington.

I guess some people can walk from Paddington to their destination, but even if I was going West I tended to use RailAir to Reading rather then HeX. (although Cross-Rail may have improved the connection time towards Reading)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

On rolling stock which lacks basics like luggage racks, toilets or even charging points.

Most people can survive for 20 minutes

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But the fast service doesn't go to anywhere useful which is why people are moving to the cheap service. Even if the price was the same, I would never use HeX again as it dumps me at Paddington and I need to get alternative transport to get to where I need to go. Either a Taxi (to sit in traffic) or a tube. At least with cross rail I can now get to the majority of places I want to go with either 1 change or a reasonable walk so don't need to bother with Taxis. The Bakerloo line out of Paddington is the only one with good frequency. The Hammersmith & City seems to be fairly infrequent by underground standards and painfully slow. Certainly Cross-rail will beat HeX to Farringdon by any combination of transport from Paddington.

In which case I would potentially support the removal of Heathrow Express if the replacement additional Elizabeth line services that took up the paths continued to run non-stop to Paddington before continuing on through the core, but I don't see that happening, and there's probably not the extra paths in the core for that anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

In which case I would potentially support the removal of Heathrow Express if the replacement additional Elizabeth line services that took up the paths continued to run non-stop to Paddington before continuing on through the core, but I don't see that happening, and there's probably not the extra paths in the core for that anyway.

Yes - I would - but many have said that isn't possible. But if they can get cross rail to by 4tph to both T5 and T4 (8tph to central) that would be perfect for me. The extra stops don't bother me as the time lost doing them are saved by not having to trek around Paddington and wait for the tube. I spend more time doing this then actually on the Hex. The 3 stops from May 23 isn't bad. Ealing Broadway may be useful for Central and district line that could bring big benefits to many.

 

[matt_world2004]

Not if they've bought a coffee and sandwich before getting the train, they'll be well into being ripped off by that stage

Just out of interest will there be job losses if HEX is done away with or will the staff be employed by GWR?

The drivers are gwr and presumably they would still need the dispatch staff at Heathrow for the el ticket staff might be made redundant

 

[Starmill]

Most people can survive for 20 minutes

26 minutes for the fastest time to London Paddington and 32 to Tottenham Court Road.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes - I would - but many have said that isn't possible. But if they can get cross rail to by 4tph to both T5 and T4 (8tph to central) that would be perfect for me. The extra stops don't bother me as the time lost doing them are saved by not having to trek around Paddington and wait for the tube. I spend more time doing this then actually on the Hex. The 3 stops from May 23 isn't bad. Ealing Broadway may be useful for Central and district line that could bring big benefits to many.

Ealing Broadway to Central London takes so long that it's almost always faster to walk from Paddington to Lancaster Gate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

The drivers (and possibly others) already are.

Do Heathrow Express drivers also drive IETs, or exclusively GW & HX 387s?

 

[Gaelan]

I can't help thinking it'll be very poor if Britain's flagship airport, and the second busiest in the world by international passenger traffic, loses it's non-stop service to London in favour of one that stops at Hayes, Southall, Ealing AND potentially West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton too. That's beyond tedious.

This got me curious, so a look at Wikipedia's top 10 by international traffic:

1. Dubai: tacked onto the end of the metro, only stoppers
2. London Heathrow: direct service to Paddington plus various stoppers
3. Amsterdam Schiphol: mainline station with nonstops to Centraal, possibly Zuid, various stoppers
4. Paris CDG: on RER B with some services running nonstop between Nord and the airport
5. Istanbul: limited-stop metro line to a station on the edge of the city, with plans for it to be extended through the city in the future
6. Frankfurt: two stations (mainline and commuter) with a variety of services including non-stops
7. Madrid-Barajas: metro and commuter services, only stoppers
8. Doha: metro, only stoppers
9. Singapore Changi: served by metro shuttle to the edge of the city(!)
10. London Gatwick: direct service to Victoria plus various stoppers

looking at top 10 by total (not just international) adds a bunch of primarily American airports:

• Atlanta: metro, only stoppers
• Dallas/Fort Worth: light rail to Dallas, commuter rail to Dallas and Fort Worth, stopping services on all
• Denver: commuter rail stoppers
• Chicago O-Hare: metro stoppers
• Los Angeles: shuttle bus to metro station with stoppers; planned people mover to a different metro station, still only stoppers
• Delhi: "Airport Express" metro line, but not nonstop

 

[zwk500]

Yes - I would - but many have said that isn't possible.

It's very disruptive, because all the other crossover points into London are single-lead only so you cannot 'pair' trains over the junction, except at Paddington itself where you can use a combination of moves across the 6 lines to cross trains simultaneously, but you block all other trains while doing so.
For performance reasons it's desirable to keep Crossrail trains on the Reliefs so that they can use the flyover to get to Heathrow, but that means they can't go fast as they end up getting stuck behind the stopper in front.

 

[Starmill]

In which case I would potentially support the removal of Heathrow Express if the replacement additional Elizabeth line services that took up the paths continued to run non-stop to Paddington before continuing on through the core, but I don't see that happening, and there's probably not the extra paths in the core for that anyway.

I imagine there would be because there are still going to be many services terminating at Old Oak Common from the east. The issue would be that it's not possible to get from the Crossrail core onto the Main lines currently. If they could, and there were enough 345s, there would be no issue running some Elizabeth line services non-stop Old Oak Common - Heathrow Central. I'd say that's the first best long-term solution, but it's not very likely.

 

[43066]

Thanks, that's good news anyway

And don’t they deserve a medal, for driving what must be the most soul crushingly dull route card in the country. Albeit I think their Ts and Cs are better than GWRs.

But the fast service doesn't go to anywhere useful which is why people are moving to the cheap service. Even if the price was the same, I would never use HeX again as it dumps me at Paddington and I need to get alternative transport to get to where I need to go. Either a Taxi (to sit in traffic) or a tube.

Basically HEX is a little like the BBC: getting less relevant with each passing day, overpriced and scared of the competition!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

Do Heathrow Express drivers also drive IETs, or exclusively GW & HX 387s?

Still just Express services AIUI, sort of a depot within a depot.

 

[tbtc]

If we’d had this thread a year ago* we’d have had lots of people saying that “nobody” would be using Heathrow Express the moment the Crossrail services started serving the airport, especially if HEX were just offering regular EMUs (387s) rather than the swankier 332s

But these threads tend to have a lot of opinion asking the lines of “I think HEX is a rip off, I think that HEX is pointless if it doesn’t go beyond Paddington, I think Crossrail provides better connections to suit my own journey home from the airport” etc which becomes conflated into “HEX is a rip off, HEX is pointless since it doesn’t go beyond Paddington, Crossrail provides better connections for everyone”…

…But not everyone is like us, not everyone has our ratios of time/ money, not everyone does their homework before a journey. There seems a market for HEX, not from people like me admittedly, but then there seems a market for First Class on most InterCity Services even if it’s been many years since I’ve paid extra for the privilege… if enough other people want to pay more to use something posher than the version I’d choose then good luck to them, Transport doesn’t always have to be the cheapest/cheerfullest… There’s surely Sufficient market to sustain multiple operations right now

Maybe it won’t live to see the 2030s, since a LOT has changed over the past five years I’m not going to make predictions about the future, but since the vast majority of flights into Heathrow will have some form of “Business” class then I can see that there’s a market for business class trains into the city centre (especially as the alternative might be hundreds more taxis on the M4!)

*- okay, we have had this thread before, especially when the 332s were about to be cut up

 

[Starmill]

It's very disruptive, because all the other crossover points into London are single-lead only so you cannot 'pair' trains over the junction, except at Paddington itself where you can use a combination of moves across the 6 lines to cross trains simultaneously, but you block all other trains while doing so.
For performance reasons it's desirable to keep Crossrail trains on the Reliefs so that they can use the flyover to get to Heathrow, but that means they can't go fast as they end up getting stuck behind the stopper in front.

This is a better description of my point above, technically it is possible to reach the Main lines on the flat out of the Low Level at Portobello Jn, but the idea is a non-starter there because it would cause irreconcilable conflicts.

A grade separated crossing somewhere between Old Oak Common and Ealing Broadway may be sufficient to fix this, but anyone who knows the value of land in the area will know how unbelievably expensive this would be.

 

[Failed Unit]

26 minutes for the fastest time to London Paddington and 32 to Tottenham Court Road.

I know you probably know this, but this is probably a good post to reply with comparison.

Heathrow T5 - Paddington (Hex) - 20 Minutes - 1 Stop
Heathrow T5 - Paddington (Elizabeth) - 31 Minutes - 4 Stops

So you are paying a fortune to save 11 minutes (the frequency of the Hex helps of course)

But then for other significant underground stops

Bond street (Central, Jubilee and Bakerloo) - 35 Mins
Tottenham Court Road (Northern) - 37 Mins
Farringdon (Thameslink, Hammersmith and City) - 40 Mins
Liverpool St (Northern) - 42 Mins

Going from Heathrow Central
Heathrow - Paddington (Hex) - 15 Minutes - 0 Stops
Heathrow - Paddington (Elizabeth) - 27 Minutes - 6 Stops (26 minutes on the "faster" service)
Bond street (Central, Jubilee and Bakerloo) - 31 Mins
Tottenham Court Road (Northern) - 33 Mins
Farringdon (Thameslink, Hammersmith and City) - 36 Mins
Liverpool St (Northern) - 38 Mins
Canary Wharf - 45 Minutes

I suspect if you are going further then Paddington you won't have boarded the relevant onward travel in the time you have saved from the faster ride to Paddington. I don't know what the interconnection is at many CrossRail stations such as to the Jubilee line at Bond Street. But a assume it is possible to do everything without hitting stairs.

Source was Real train times (East bound only) - Maybe we could try a few forum "races" to popular London destinations. One on the Piccadilly, on on Hex and one on Cross Rail. The Piccadilly line may not be a slow as some think. I have at weekends used the HeX and wished I had taken the Piccadilly line. For me a single change at Finsbury Park can be more desirable then the changes at Paddington and Kings Cross that HeX previously involved. But I just can't see any circumstances would ever save time (Or have any other benefit) using the HeX. I am sure that it will still get passengers who prefer it, just like Gatwick Express seems to live on despite it saving even less time compared to HeX. If it can make enough money for these, that is a different question. I have never understood why people pay to go first class on the Hex for such a short journey - but they do.

Just so I am not contradicting Starmill - Tottenham, all stops upto Liverpool Street can be done 1 minute quicker if you use the service that stops at 3 stations, rather than the all stops I quoted. Going the other direction the "faster" Elizabeth line service takes just 23 minutes, so the HeX is saving a stunning 8 minutes from London to the Airport.

 

[zwk500]

This is a better description of my point above, technically it is possible to reach the Main lines on the flat out of the Low Level at Portobello Jn, but the idea is a non-starter there because it would cause irreconcilable conflicts.

A grade separated crossing somewhere between Old Oak Common and Ealing Broadway may be sufficient to fix this, but anyone who knows the value of land in the area will know how unbelievably expensive this would be.

The only way I could see that happening would be to convert the reversing sidings for crossrail into another tunnel and then pop up between the Main Lines, but that would mean taking lines out at Ladbroke Grove as well as probably property demolition so it's not going to happen.

 

[Mikey C]

And you call yourself a railway enthusiast!?

After an 12 hour overnight flight, a 1 hour Piccadilly Line journey at 7:30am is enough to turn the most ardent rail enthusiast into Jeremy Clarkson

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

This got me curious, so a look at Wikipedia's top 10 by international traffic:

1. Singapore Changi: served by metro shuttle to the edge of the city(!)

The shuttle connects directly to another metro line

 

[Gaelan]

The shuttle connects directly to another metro line

Yes, and maybe it works quite well in practice. My general impression of airport shuttles is rather poor, because most of the ones I'm familiar with (Luton DART, Edinburgh Tram from Edinburgh Gateway, Paris Orlyval, New York JFK Airtrain) are ridiculously expensive to go a mile or two before catching another train - not a great experience. But sensible integrated fares, charging the same for a comparable two-leg metro journey, and well-timed connections would alleviate a lot of my concerns there.