RMT strike action

[jack31439]

As a TOC and RMT member I can confirm this was not communicated beforehand, nor was the previous offer put to the members.

When is it ever communicated beforehand? Members get told of strike days same time as the press typically no?

 

[DanNCL]

You clearly haven't a clue. The pay dispute is the T&Cs dispute. In order to resolve the pay, RDG (Govt) want to push through the T&Cs changes. They aren't separate disputes and the only people here acting like toddlers are RDG and the Govt. RMT aren't messing with peoples lives by trying to secure a (under inflation) pay rise for its members, a not insignificant chunk of which are on wages just above the national living wage.

I don't know all the ins and outs of the rail 'industry' side of it but I know the impact this is having on people's lives, and from my line of work I have a very good grasp of the potential international ramifications of this particular event being disrupted.
RMT are messing with peoples lives by, without consultation, calling a strike at the last possible minute on a day where doing so is likely to have international ramifications.

I am not saying the dispute is unjustified, I'm saying the RMT are going about handling this completely the wrong way and are lowering themselves to the level of the government.

What other method does RMT have? This deal would have been put to members and likely voted for (stage 1 at least) had further action been possible and on the table for stage 2 and the t&c changes. There are significant changes to guards t&cs, for example, between TOCs (and in some cases within the same toc).

Again, you really have no idea and are guessing.

They could and should have consulted the membership. They haven't. Assuming the membership will vote how the RMT wants the membership to vote isn't a good enough reason.

When is it ever communicated beforehand? Members get told of strike days same time as the press typically no?

You'd expect an internal email to go out before the press release, even if it is only an hour or two earlier.

 

[joncombe]

I have Advance tickets booked for one of the strike dates (3rd June) with LNER. Can I claim a refund for it? Or do I have to wait until nearer the time to see if the strikes are certainly going ahead?

 

[Snow1964]

When is it ever communicated beforehand? Members get told of strike days same time as the press typically no?

No because email and text is usually delayed anything upto few minutes (unless RMT members are sort of people who would hit refresh button multiple times a minutes on their phones), it is normally deemed polite by organisations to delay press releases few minutes so paying members hear first.

Of course if RMT think a PR stunt is more important than the members paying subscriptions then press would hear first.

I don't know the release timings of announcements to each group so can't comment if members were in second tier of importance.

 

[jack31439]

You'd expect an internal email to go out before the press release, even if it is only an hour or two earlier.

90% of your post was untrue waffle that I cannot be bothered to go over, but this bit specifically is not the case. Hasn't been at all through this dispute. Any internal email the press would be aware of in moments anyway.

 

[DanNCL]

90% of your post was untrue waffle that I cannot be bothered to go over, but this bit specifically is not the case. Hasn't been at all through this dispute. Any internal email the press would be aware of in moments anyway.

If you already know the answer then why bother asking the question.
I cannot be bothered to go over this again. I've made my point clear. You're entitled to disagree with me.

 

[Snow1964]

Any internal email the press would be aware of in moments anyway.

Shouldn't do if it was internal, unless they are negotiating in public

 

[DanNCL]

Shouldn't do if it was internal, unless they are negotiating in public

Exactly. If someone chooses to share confidential internal communications with the press then they're clearly not suitable to have access to those internal communications.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Accept the 5% drop the action enter into separate negotiations with the TOCs and if they don't go well then enter into a new TOC level dispute.... Or am I missing something?

You are missing that the latest statement from the RDG today says that the RMT cannot have any further industrial action about anything else related to this dispute, including at TOC Level once Stage 2 Negotiations are started.

Don't forget the offer was that Stage 1 Pay Increase would be paid when the offer was accepted, and at that point Stage 2 Negotiations would begin at a local level in respect of the changes to ts and cs. But they are now saying that you cannot have any industrial action in respect of Stage 2. But you don't know what the local level negotiations are going to involve yet. So basically they are now saying you have to accept whatever is proposed at Stage 2, even if it is terrible, as you cannot hold any further industrial action about it, even though you don't know what you are agreeing to yet.

So basically "You can't hold any action of any sort about something we haven't given you details about yet".

That isn't what's been reported though, what's been reported is that action related to the pay dispute has to stop, which as the pay dispute would have been resolved that's reasonable. T&Cs are/should be a seperate dispute.


Quite why RDG felt the need to state that resolving the dispute needs to end action I don't know as it's stating the obvious and only provokes things, but the RMT don't need to throw a tantrum over it either.

But the pay dispute won't be fully resolved. Stage 1 / Year 1 would be resolved, but Stage 2 changes to Ts and Cs would not yet be resolved as there is no information yet on how that will affect each TOC.

If the dispute was fully resolved, then yes, there should be no more action. And nationally the Stage 1 offer would have been accepted. But locally at each TOC the specifics of the Ts and cs changes won't have been resolved yet as they haven't even been discussed yet.

 

[DanNCL]

But the pay dispute won't be fully resolved. Stage 1 / Year 1 would be resolved, but Stage 2 changes to Ts and Cs would not yet be resolved as there is no information yet on how that will affect each TOC.

If the dispute was fully resolved, then yes, there should be no more action. And nationally the Stage 1 offer would have been accepted. But locally at each TOC the specifics of the Ts and cs changes won't have been resolved yet as they haven't even been discussed yet.

Are the RDG saying no action over stage 2? That's not the impression I've got, the impression I've got is they've said no action over the stage that's agreed on, but I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't the case.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From the RMT:

Dear RMT Member



DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES



STRIKE ACTION CALLED FOR SATURDAY 13TH MAY 2023



Today I received clarification from the Rail Delivery Group regarding its views on the Dispute Resolution Proposals.



Astonishingly, the RDG confirmed that the proposed Year One payment of 5% or £1750 is dependent on our dispute being formally terminated and no further action being taken. This would mean having to move into stage two discussions regarding changes to working practices and terms and conditions without an industrial action mandate being in place, leaving the Union dis-armed and leaving members vulnerable in the face of detrimental proposals and a very poor pay offer.



This new position from the RDG makes a mockery of the proposed 'dispute resolution' and is no doubt due to interference and pressure from the Tory Government. The RDG has completely reneged on the spirit of the document previously proposed in a move which contradicts and overturns the basis on which we had recently been considering this matter.



In addition to the above, the proposals provided for Driver grades are not even on a par with those for other grades with Drivers only offered 4% in each year on the basis of a long list of Workforce Changes for the grade.



I have produced a video which will be available on the RMT website, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter accounts later this evening.



The National Executive Committee has declared that this situation is intolerable and unacceptable and it has undermined our negotiations. The proposals for Drivers are also wholly unacceptable.



The National Executive Committee has called on all members involved in this dispute to take strike action and NOT TO BOOK ON for any shifts between:



· 00:01 to 23:39 hours on Saturday 13th May 2023



The NEC will of course be considering this matter and further industrial action dates next week when the re-ballots close on Thursday 4th May and I will of course keep you advised of all further developments.

 

[142blue]

Good on the RMT here. They are being played for idiots

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Are the RDG saying no action over stage 2? That's not the impression I've got, the impression I've got is they've said no action over the stage that's agreed on, but I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't the case.

They are saying that the dispute would be formally terminated. Stage 1 and 2 and just different stages of the same dispute.

How the dispute can be terminated when the specifics of the Stage 2 changes haven't even been discussed yet I do not know.

You cannot terminate a dispute until the discussions about it have concluded.

 

[DanNCL]

I may be missing something but there seems to be an obvious workaround to this. Accept stage 1, end the dispute, then immediately call a new dispute solely for stage 2. Is there any law to prevent this?

 

[ModernRailways]

I may be missing something but there seems to be an obvious workaround to this. Accept stage 1, end the dispute, then immediately call a new dispute solely for stage 2. Is there any law to prevent this?

It is the same dispute. Please just stop spreading untrue statements and pretending they’re fact. You haven’t got a clue about this dispute as you posted previously so quit pretending you do and trying to undermine the workers that would be heavily affected (negatively).

 

[DanNCL]

It is the same dispute. Please just stop spreading untrue statements and pretending they’re fact. You haven’t got a clue about this dispute as you posted previously so quit pretending you do and trying to undermine the workers that would be heavily affected (negatively).

I recommend you re-read the post you've quoted. I have made clear in that post that I may be missing something. Please just stop claiming that I'm making statements as if they were fact when that simply isn't the case. Quit pretending otherwise.

If you had some manners I might take what you're saying more seriously.

 

[michael74]

You are missing that the latest statement from the RDG today says that the RMT cannot have any further industrial action about anything else related to this dispute, including at TOC Level once Stage 2 Negotiations are started.

No I saw it in the news (a shame members didn't hear first)... I was wondering if we could raise a "new" dispute with TOCs at stage 2, a bit of a workaround in a way, but it's just been discussed.

 

[jack31439]

I recommend you re-read the post you've quoted. I have made clear in that post that I may be missing something. Please just stop claiming that I'm making statements as if they were fact when that simply isn't the case. Quit pretending otherwise.

There's a lot of things you're missing then clearly. Your attitude to the whole thing seems a bit blasé.

 

[DanNCL]

There's a lot of things you're missing then clearly. Your attitude to the whole thing seems a bit blasé.

Forgive me for trying to look at the wider picture. When the wider picture is looked at, many people are missing a lot of things. Going back to my original point that includes the ramifications of striking on the particular date chosen.

 

[winks]

Another summer of disrupted rail travel begins. If the past few months are anything to go by (with protracted gaps in between meetings and weeks passing without even meeting each other) this will go well into summer.

there is no way the RMT could accept this hand grenade inserted into the agreement, so whilst I will be disrupted by this action I do support them in their stance!

 

[northwichcat]

Not relevant.

In the context where other posters are questionning whether the RMT have a mandate for that date, it is relevant. The RMT did forget to check whether a strike they previously called was actually legal and it wasn't.

 

[778]

Is this the TOC staff only on strike? I thought the network rail staff dispute had ended.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Going back to my original point that includes the ramifications of striking on the particular date chosen.

Do you suggest striking on a wet Wednesday in the middle of winter?

 

[DanNCL]

Do you suggest striking on a wet Wednesday in the middle of winter?

I suggest striking on a day where doing so doesn’t risk diplomatic fallouts with other countries, so almost any another day in the calendar!

 

[North-Valiant]

I suggest striking on a day where doing so doesn’t risk diplomatic fallouts with other countries, so almost any another day in the calendar!

Every other way that the government has handled the country over the past 8 years has caused plenty of other diplomatic fallouts, what's one more amongst friends?

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Another summer of disrupted rail travel begins. If the past few months are anything to go by (with protracted gaps in between meetings and weeks passing without even meeting each other) this will go well into summer.

there is no way the RMT could accept this hand grenade inserted into the agreement, so whilst I will be disrupted by this action I do support them in their stance!

Whilst I support the action based on recent events and will support my colleagues, I don’t think I’m the only one who’s getting tired of this whole shambles.

 

[Kite159]

I knew I should have put money on the RMT striking on Eurovision day, one of the biggest events held by Liverpool for a few years.

Car park operators will be rubbing their hands in glee with a lot of extra revenue.

 

[Bluejays]

I'm interested as to the 'diplomatic fallout' that could occur. Seems a bit far fetched to me

 

[Darandio]

I'm interested as to the 'diplomatic fallout' that could occur. Seems a bit far fetched to me

As does the fact that Putin will somehow be rubbing his hands because a strike has been called.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I suggest striking on a day where doing so doesn’t risk diplomatic fallouts with other countries, so almost any another day in the calendar!

Why will it cause a diplomatic incident?

The event will take place and be well attended. Merseyrail services will run as intended. Any dignitaries will either be put in in the top Liverpool hotels or some country hotel in leafy Cheshire and taken to the event by road. The acts and comperes aren't going to be making their own way on a Wigan - Lime St stopper. Basically, apart from the people attending who wanted to save a few bob by staying in hotels miles away nobody else will be affected or even notice.