Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[DLAYKEGER]

Merseyrail

You regularly see West Kirby trains held for late Borderlands line trains, so don't assume Merseyrail always has priority at Bidston. Most delay before the 175 bustitution debacle was because of class 230 training runs holding up the 150s.

 

[norbitonflyer]

would it be easier to do that then just adding a new terminating platform at Bidston to make the line independent to the level of the St Ives branch.
Even with going through to Birkenhead North then there's two sets of trains they could be delayed by

Four times as many trains - the current operation doesn't impede Liverpool bound trains at all, as it uses the West Kirby-bound platform (and trains to WK can recover time at the terminus, which Liverpool-loop bound trains can't). Running to Birkenhead North would need paths on the Liverpool-bound track, as well as crossing the paths of New Brighton trains

 

[Meerkat]

This forum very much has the usual hyperventilating and hyperbolic response that we get whenever a new train enters service and gets teething issues.

No matter how much testing you do, there will be issues found once you start getting passengers on board. To quote Helmuth von Moltke, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

Are passengers the enemy then? An enemy is deliberately doing things to confound you, and adapting to your moves.
Passengers are pretty predictable - the railway has been dealing with them for nearly 200 years - and I can't see what passengers could do that can't be predicted and tested.or found out by using invited test passengers.

 

[OutdoorM]

Does anyone know, once the crew are up to speed re braking points, acceleration etc, are the trains actually fast enough (speed and door operation) to keep to the published timetable?

How will it cope if the extra stations are added?

 

[jamesst]

Yes, there does seem to be zero tolerance to letting a terminating Wrexham-Bidston get in the way of a West Kirby train, even if it’s the Merseyrail train running late (which is understandable). Another reason why it would be great to have these running through to Birkenhead North into the third platform when units/timings allow.

Yeah not true, regularly I've been held outside Bidston waiting for late running Welsh trains to clear the platform.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are passengers the enemy then? An enemy is deliberately doing things to confound you, and adapting to your moves.
Passengers are pretty predictable - the railway has been dealing with them for nearly 200 years - and I can't see what passengers could do that can't be predicted and tested.or found out by using invited test passengers.

Well said. What is the raison d'etre for having the Borderlands Line in the 21st century if not for providing a mode of travel that passengers can avail themselves of.

 

[L401CJF]

Looking at todays workings on RTT so far, it's showing as 230010 again and has been running only a couple of minutes late - pretty much the norm for this line anyway.

Generally if you leave Wrexham Central and General on time, there's not enough time to get to Gwersylt so end up a few minutes late. Turn around time at each end is usually around 2 minutes, so if you're late in you're late out by the time crew have changed ends etc.

I feel the better performance on the 230 units is wasted by slower door operation. But it is good to see it running only 2/3 mins down so far. Hopefully that doesn't change.

Regarding other traffic, it isn't unusual to be held outside Bidston for a late running West Kirby service, and the same goes for Merseyrail services waiting for late Wrexham services.

If however a freight service is let in front of the passenger service at say Dee Marsh, the passenger service would then have to wait at Dee Marsh for the freight to clear Penyffordd before it can continue. Same the other way round.

I was on a TFW service from Chester to Shrewsbury a couple of months ago which was on time leaving Chester and on time arriving at Wrexham. At Chester the freight to Chirk was let out just before the passenger service departed, and then at Wrexham the freight was sent straight through to Chirk. The TfW was then delayed at Wrexham for 20 minutes until the logs has reached Chirk and reversed into Kronospan sidings.

I have been held in the past on the Bidston line heading toward Bidston, as a freight train for Penyffordd has been put ahead.

 

[Dan G]

They look great trains, a vast improvement over 150s. Would love a fleet for the Devon Metro and Cornwall branches (they would fit!).

 

[Chris125]

Seems pretty similar to the 484 introduction so far, significant issues with timekeeping and faults in the first few days but signs of promise too - we're already seeing proof that these *can* keep to time, and with more experience among traincrew timekeeping should only get better.

 

[12LDA28C]

Are passengers the enemy then? An enemy is deliberately doing things to confound you, and adapting to your moves.
Passengers are pretty predictable - the railway has been dealing with them for nearly 200 years - and I can't see what passengers could do that can't be predicted and tested.or found out by using invited test passengers.

Testing of new stock doesn't take place with a train fully loaded with passengers, and faults often only become apparent after several weeks or months of regular use in service and during a variety of weather conditions and so on. You can't really recreate those conditions during testing, simple as that.

For example, testing of the Marston Vale Class 230s took place at night for mileage accumulation and in my personal experience suffered very few problems during testing, yet they weren't particularly reliable once they entered service, by all accounts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They look great trains, a vast improvement over 150s.

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

Would love a fleet for the Devon Metro and Cornwall branches (they would fit!).

But who would be there to build them?

 

[norbitonflyer]

But who would be there to build them?

There are three at Bletchley going spare.................

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are three at Bletchley going spare.................

Put it like this, if you were a Cornish branch line traveller, knowing what people who actually travelled on those particular units have spoken of in past times, would you "welcome them with open arms"?

 

[Techniquest]

I was strongly considering going up to North Wales today for these, the nail in the coffin was the 1230 from Hereford to Holyhead not being a 67+MK4s after all. I've gone to similarly foreign metals instead for some completely different wants, that so far have taken nearly 19 years to clear. Wish me luck!

Has the 230 managed to stay out all day so far? I'm keen to try them out, but I shall wait for another one to come into service I think before I spend significant sums on getting to the Borderlands line.

 

[MotCO]

Testing of new stock doesn't take place with a train fully loaded with passengers, and faults often only become apparent after several weeks or months of regular use in service and during a variety of weather conditions and so on. You can't really recreate those conditions during testing, simple as that.

For example, testing of the Marston Vale Class 230s took place at night for mileage accumulation and in my personal experience suffered very few problems during testing, yet they weren't particularly reliable once they entered service, by all accounts.

I recall when Networkers were introduced, there were problems with the doors closing, which may not have been apparent until the trains entered service and had passengers using them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I recall when Networkers were introduced, there were problems with the doors closing, which may not have been apparent until the trains entered service and had passengers using them.

But is it not the case that the door problems with the units on the Borderlands Line were already known from the Vivarail units service on the Marston Vale Line?

 

[L401CJF]

Has the 230 managed to stay out all day so far? I'm keen to try them out, but I shall wait for another one to come into service I think before I spend significant sums on getting to the Borderlands line.

It's managed OK today so far, its currently 6 late, a huge improvement compared to the previous 2 days.

As stated earlier delays of up to 10mins are a pretty regular daily thing on this line anyway. With the short turnaround catching up time doesn't really happen. Of course if the driver needs to pop to the toilet, there's another few minutes lost which can't be helped.

 

[Bob Price]

Looking at the schedules today it seems to have been only a few minutes behind the schedule all day. Currently 4 late leaving Bidston but staying 4 late leaving Hawarden. Possible improvements.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This sounds very much like you feel that fare-paying passengers using a mode of transport should be expected to be treated as guinea-pigs by those operating the service.

Could you please have a word with Microsoft !. They have made a lot of money by putting software out in the real world for people to discover what testing might have been expected to find. I am not condoning it but, unfortunately, real world conditions can be very hard to re-create in a test environment. I think it is because technology nowadays is too complicated or ambitious. Trains from more than 20 years ago were a lot simpler - is this the price of progress ?.

I think we can be pretty sure the delays are while the drivers drive cautiously. Unlike a car it does take more effort to learn the braking characteristics and get used to the stopping distances. Now one option would be to spend a month driving these trains with people paid to act as passengers - trouble is they will get quite rehearsed at getting on and off efficiently (etc etc) so should really only hire them for a single return journey then get some more fresh bodies. How much is it all going to cost ?. Who wants to pay ?. So we end up saving on some proper bedding in.

I've just checked the services quoted for the 231's first day in service (18/01/23) and most of the services it operated were pretty much on time with a couple of 5 minute delays. No comparison with what is happening with these. Incremental delays throughout the day resulting in services having to be cancelled to get back on schedule.

I think the turn round times at each end of the route are too ambitious. Therefore if the train consistently loses more than two minutes in either direction there is then guaranteed to be a delay on departure for the return. So delays will build up through the day. Obviously the turn round times are tight as that allows for a clockface timetable. Solution would be to spend more money on more trains and passengers so they can have longer at each end. How much is it all going to cost ?. Who wants to pay ?. So we end up saving on some proper padding in the timetable.

Lets just hope it is drivers getting used to the trains.

 

[robert thomas]

I was strongly considering going up to North Wales today for these, the nail in the coffin was the 1230 from Hereford to Holyhead not being a 67+MK4s after all. I've gone to similarly foreign metals instead for some completely different wants, that so far have taken nearly 19 years to clear. Wish me luck!

Has the 230 managed to stay out all day so far? I'm keen to try them out, but I shall wait for another one to come into service I think before I spend significant sums on getting to the Borderlands line.

according to RTT it was 67017 & Mark 4s

 

[sd0733]

I was strongly considering going up to North Wales today for these, the nail in the coffin was the 1230 from Hereford to Holyhead not being a 67+MK4s after all.

Afraid it was a Mk4.

Passed the 230 a couple of times today and seemed to be running fairly Well to time

 

[pwr]

sadly, the current 010 journey is now up to 13 mins late - lots of red on RTT.

 

[markymark2000]

I can't help but feel given that this happens whenever any new train is introduced (delays due to lack of familiarity), shouldn't someone have foreseen this and had the trains not go to Wrexham Central until such time that reliability is at an acceptable level. The rail replacements are still running and therefore the journeys opportunity is still there however it does give that buffer zone so that delays can be caught up much more easily rather than as current, snowballing.

 

[MotCO]

But is it not the case that the door problems with the units on the Borderlands Line were already known from the Vivarail units service on the Marston Vale Line?

My point about the Networker doors was to illustrate that there were teething problems after those trains entered passenger service, but the teething problems could have been anything - doors, lights, seats or anything. They were not meant to be a direct comparison with the slow doors on the 230s.

 

[Techniquest]

It's managed OK today so far, its currently 6 late, a huge improvement compared to the previous 2 days.

As stated earlier delays of up to 10mins are a pretty regular daily thing on this line anyway. With the short turnaround catching up time doesn't really happen. Of course if the driver needs to pop to the toilet, there's another few minutes lost which can't be helped.

Thanks for getting back to me so quick, I've been out exploring and red-penning today hence the delay in my own reply. I had visions of rocking up for the 1336 (or whatever it is exactly) from Wrexham to find it cancelled. Meanwhile I went east and had a clearout

Oh indeed, I've seen delays on the Borderlands line before, as you say it is common. Good to know the 230 kept going though!

according to RTT it was 67017 & Mark 4s

It was showing as a 2-car 158 when I looked this morning.

Afraid it was a Mk4.

Passed the 230 a couple of times today and seemed to be running fairly Well to time

Definitely positive that when I checked the 1153 ex-Hereford that was showing MK4 but the 1230 showed a 2-car 158. That was around 0915 I think, maybe a little later. It sure made the decision to head to the East Midlands easier!

As for the 230, let's hope performance stays good and confidence builds ASAP. Getting back to 2 trains in service, thus ending the replacement buses, has to be critical up there, if only to help bring in enthusiast money!

 

[NI 271]

I was on a TFW service from Chester to Shrewsbury a couple of months ago which was on time leaving Chester and on time arriving at Wrexham. At Chester the freight to Chirk was let out just before the passenger service departed, and then at Wrexham the freight was sent straight through to Chirk. The TfW was then delayed at Wrexham for 20 minutes until the logs has reached Chirk and reversed into Kronospan sidings.

The train preceding 6J37 is booked to leave Chester at 1822 (it's 1V98, the Holyhead - Cardiff, I know that only too well as it delays 6J37, which I drive on a very regular basis, at least 2-3 times a week, on average, by being late reaching Gobowen). The next train from Chester to Shrewsbury (1J70) is booked off Chester at 1917, by which time 6J37 should, if not delayed by 1V98, be setting back into the Kronospan yard (despite 1V98's frequent tardiness, it is still very rare indeed that the groundframe hasn't been handed back by 1930, with 1J70 not due off Wrexham until 1932, with maybe ¾ mile before CN940 signal). There have been a couple of occasions in recent months (both on Fridays, I seem to recall) where a late-running Network Rail test train was given the road south in between 1V98 and 6J37, leaving the latter waiting at CN940 signal until said test trains had reached Gobowen, but it is almost exclusively 1V98 which causes the issues. It's frequently late departing Wrexham even with a right-time arrival there, and I've no idea why this is the case - it somehow seems to happen even some nights the loco-hauled service is replaced by a unit, although perhaps to a lesser degree on such occasions.

TfW are very good at blaming "a late running freight train" for issues down there at that time of day, less so at explaining WHY that freight train was late. It is very, VERY rarely the fault of 6J37 itself - if for any reason it is likely to delay a passenger train of its own accord it is almost always held at Chester, either in the station or occasionally on the slows at Roodee. If it is put out 'in front' of a passenger train this is because it has been delayed by something else, which is, as I've already mentioned, almost always 1V98.

As for the bit of your post I've put in bold, 6J37 cannot be put/held in the loop at Croes Newydd, because the train is longer than the 1339-foot loop, so once it's past Roodee, it's not going away till Chirk no matter how long the previous train may delay it for.

 

[L401CJF]

The train preceding 6J37 is booked to leave Chester at 1822 (it's 1V98, the Holyhead - Cardiff, I know that only too well as it delays 6J37, which I drive on a very regular basis, at least 2-3 times a week, on average, by being late reaching Gobowen). The next train from Chester to Shrewsbury (1J70) is booked off Chester at 1917, by which time 6J37 should, if not delayed by 1V98, be setting back into the Kronospan yard (despite 1V98's frequent tardiness, it is still very rare indeed that the groundframe hasn't been handed back by 1930, with 1J70 not due off Wrexham until 1932, with maybe ¾ mile before CN940 signal). There have been a couple of occasions in recent months (both on Fridays, I seem to recall) where a late-running Network Rail test train was given the road south in between 1V98 and 6J37, leaving the latter waiting at CN940 signal until said test trains had reached Gobowen, but it is almost exclusively 1V98 which causes the issues. It's frequently late departing Wrexham even with a right-time arrival there, and I've no idea why this is the case - it somehow seems to happen even some nights the loco-hauled service is replaced by a unit, although perhaps to a lesser degree on such occasions.

TfW are very good at blaming "a late running freight train" for issues down there at that time of day, less so at explaining WHY that freight train was late. It is very, VERY rarely the fault of 6J37 itself - if for any reason it is likely to delay a passenger train of its own accord it is almost always held at Chester, either in the station or occasionally on the slows at Roodee. If it is put out 'in front' of a passenger train this is because it has been delayed by something else, which is, as I've already mentioned, almost always 1V98.

As for the bit of your post I've put in bold, 6J37 cannot be put/held in the loop at Croes Newydd, because the train is longer than the 1339-foot loop, so once it's past Roodee, it's not going away till Chirk no matter how long the previous train may delay it for.

I suspect that was the case, if I remember rightly the logs were held at Chester and departed once the passenger service got in. I didn't check to see if there was something in front of the logs too! Interesting to hear it from a freight perspective, the whole line could do with a signalling upgrade.

Regarding the delay for TfW services leaving wrexham even if they arrive on time, at WRX the guard has to press the TRTS plunger to get the signal, this usually take a minute or 2 for the crossing barriers to be lowered and signal cleared.

Very rare to pull in there and meet anything other than a red!

 

[NI 271]

I suspect that was the case, if I remember rightly the logs were held at Chester and departed once the passenger service got in. I didn't check to see if there was something in front of the logs too! Interesting to hear it from a freight perspective, the whole line could do with a signalling upgrade.

Regarding the delay for TfW services leaving wrexham even if they arrive on time, at WRX the guard has to press the TRTS plunger to get the signal, this usually take a minute or 2 for the crossing barriers to be lowered and signal cleared.

Very rare to pull in there and meet anything other than a red!

I agree, another signal at (say) Ruabon would make a lot of difference, not least because even in the unlikely event you did get held there, you wouldn't have the climb from Wrexham to there to contend with once you set off - the gradient doesn't look like it's severe at all but getting greens (rare!) through Wrexham makes over five minutes' difference to arrival at Chirk with that train, and it's not even that heavy.

I get that about the TRTS plunger, but its use should be reflected in the scheduling, indeed I'd be surprised if it wasn't. It's amused me that according to RTT, 1V98 (loco-hauled at that) has stuck rigidly to time this evening. Maybe it's me that's the jinx!

Apologies to others for taking the thread off topic temporarily.

 

[childwallblues]

Does anyone know, once the crew are up to speed re braking points, acceleration etc, are the trains actually fast enough (speed and door operation) to keep to the published timetable?

How will it cope if the extra stations are added?

What extra stations?

 

[DLAYKEGER]

What extra stations?

Parcffordd Glannau Dyfrdwy and Woodchurch