Could the Atherton line become part of Metrolink, and would that disbenefit passengers?

[yorksrob]

Given that the Atherton Line has no linespeeds above 60mph before it reaches Wigan Wallgate, I am extremely skeptical that the tram journey would be any slower than the existing train journey.

5tph to Wigan is probably far more useful than an hourly DMU.

Even beyond Wigan on the line to Southport the speed limit peaks at 70mph, which saves 9 seconds per mile versus 60mph, even assuming instantaneous electrification.

The service isn't an hourly DMU. It's half hourly at least.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

far more useful than an hourly DMU.

Half-hourly, except on Sundays when it is hourly, but yes, 5tph is a lot better than 2.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Half-hourly, except on Sundays when it is hourly, but yes, 5tph is a lot better than 2.

At this moment in time, is the Atherton line a recognised heavy rail diversionary route?

Incidentally, using your base figure of 5tph, how many trams would be needed to run a Manchester to Wigan service of that frequency, what would the costs involved of the required fleet enlargement and which tram depot would service and store them?

 

[The Planner]

Incidentally, using your base figure of 5tph, how many trams would be needed to run a Manchester to Wigan service of that frequency, what would the costs involved of the required fleet enlargement and which tram depot would service and store them?

Unless there are tram system experts on here, I very much doubt anyone could answer that. Much in the same vein that you could never get a decent estimate for any speculative heavy rail proposal on here.

 

[Greybeard33]

Like once the Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrification is complete one from Bolton runs as EMU and one of the 2tph to Southport start running via Atherton?

AIUI once Lostock - Wigan electrification is complete the plan is to run a 2tph service of 6-car EMUs on that line, terminating at Wigan North Western. Therefore both Southport trains will have to run via Atherton, as they did in the May 2018 timetable.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Lostock - Wigan electrification is complete the plan is to run a 2tph service of 6-car EMUs on that line, terminating at Wigan North Western.

At least that'll mean people'll only have to walk to Platform 1 at Northwestern instead of the longer walk to 3 (small difference but when running it makes a difference)

Therefore both Southport trains will have to run via Atherton, as they did in the May 2018 timetable.

(Timetable extract with Chat Moss fast removed)
Looks more like 3tph than 4 here. (I've heard there's signalling limitations on frequent service here, can anyone say more?)
3tph could be achieved with LDS - WGW going to SOP, and a diverted service as well. unless that's what you're saying, you never said 4tph, just that they'll both have to run via Atherton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the long game is 2tph Southports and the Kirkby being Merseyrail into Wallgate.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'd rather go back to knackered old Pacers (with a toilet) than have Metrolink trams on the Atherton line.

Metrolink trams are fine for short journeys - it's great for Manchester - but Wigan via Atherton is pushing it too far.

345s operate to Reading which is much further than Manchester to Wigan

 

[Greybeard33]

At least that'll mean people'll only have to walk to Platform 1 at Northwestern instead of the longer walk to 3 (small difference but when running it makes a difference)

View attachment 131199(Timetable extract with Chat Moss fast removed)
Looks more like 3tph than 4 here. (I've heard there's signalling limitations on frequent service here, can anyone say more?)
3tph could be achieved with LDS - WGW going to SOP, and a diverted service as well. unless that's what you're saying, you never said 4tph, just that they'll both have to run via Atherton.

I meant the 2024/5 timetable recast is likely to have 2tph EMUs between Wigan North Western and Stalybridge via Bolton and Victoria, and 2tph DMUs between Southport and Salford Crescent via Atherton. Maybe also 1tph DMU between Headbolt Lane and Salford Crescent via Atherton, making 3tph on the Atherton line, and just possibly 1tph DMU between Wigan Wallgate and Salford Crescent via Atherton for a total of 4tph on the Atherton line. The latter two would I think be dependent on implementation of the Manchester Task Force proposals for additional turnback sidings at Victoria. If this does not happen in time, the Headbolt Lane service might have to be a shuttle to Wallgate.

The eastern destinations of the Atherton line services beyond Salford Crescent can only be guesswork at this stage, because no proposal has yet been published, but would most likely include some combination of Leeds via Brighouse, Blackburn via Burnley and Manchester Oxford Road.

I believe the signalling was designed for 6tph between Wigan Station Jn and Crow Nest Jn, i.e. 2tph via Bolton and 4tph via Atherton, but the 4th Atherton line service was never introduced because of lack of capacity into central Manchester. The MTF reduced the service from a lopsided 3tph to the current even 2tph to reduce congestion through Victoria.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I believe the signalling was designed for 6tph between Wigan Station Jn and Crow Nest Jn, i.e. 2tph via Bolton and 4tph via Atherton,

why not 3tph via both
- Current Atherton line routes + 1 Southport (or 2 if LDS-WGW gets sent up there)
- 2 EMU tph + 769s to Southport?

 

[HSTEd]

why not 3tph via both
- Current Atherton line routes + 1 Southport (or 2 if LDS-WGW gets sent up there)
- 2 EMU tph + 769s to Southport?

Paths into the Castlefield junction complex are extremely precious.

And if trains terminate at Salford Crescent to avoid using those paths, they are not particularly convenient compared to a Metrolink conversion-based solution.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Paths into the Castlefield junction complex are extremely precious.

Indeed

And if trains terminate at Salford Crescent to avoid using those paths, they are not particularly convenient compared to a Metrolink conversion-based solution.

at least if they terminate at Salford Crescent they could be timed to connect to the BPN-MIA to get Castlefield corridor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paths into the Castlefield junction complex are extremely precious.

And if trains terminate at Salford Crescent to avoid using those paths, they are not particularly convenient compared to a Metrolink conversion-based solution.

There is no possibility of trains terminating at Salford Crescent.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There is no possibility of trains terminating at Salford Crescent.

Salford Crescent is indeed very busy and I heavily doubt trains ever terminating there unless a platform is built at the bypass one (which probably will never happen)

 

[Greybeard33]

There is no possibility of trains terminating at Salford Crescent.

And I doubt there is capacity between Salford Crescent and Bolton for more than 2tph to Wigan. But the better acceleration of EMUs might enable Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate to have 2tph instead of the current 1tph.

Salford Crescent is indeed very busy and I heavily doubt trains ever terminating there unless a platform is built at the bypass one (which probably will never happen)

MTF does have a proposal for a third platform at Salford Crescent on the Up Bolton line. But this is to improve capacity for stopping through trains, not to enable terminations.

 

[Manutd1999]

In a non-Metrolink world, 4ph seems like a reasonable aim for the Atherton line:

2ph all-stop Wigan to Victoria, ideally using a new bay platform at Victora. One extends to Kirkby/Headbolt Lane
2ph from Southport, possibly running semi-fast.

From a network planning perspective it would make sense for both Southport services to also continue to Victoria (and onwards to Leeds), but that may provoke the inevitable reactions from the "we need Castlefield" brigade.

Is that better than a 5ph metrolink service to central Manchester? I'm not sure...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

2ph from Southport, possibly running semi-fast.

I think they shouldn't run semi-fast
If the timetable can be almost perfectly 15 minutely with 4tph that'd be great

Is that better than a 5ph metrolink service to central Manchester? I'm not sure...

4tph < 5tph, so not from my perspective.

 

[Bevan Price]

Merseyrail manages fine for longer, you don't see human waste all over the trains floors, do you?

It has free toilets at some of the busier stations, including Liverpool Central, Southport & Chester. That eases the need for toilets on some of the longer journeys.

 

[Greybeard33]

In a non-Metrolink world, 4ph seems like a reasonable aim for the Atherton line:

2ph all-stop Wigan to Victoria, ideally using a new bay platform at Victora. One extends to Kirkby/Headbolt Lane
2ph from Southport, possibly running semi-fast.

From a network planning perspective it would make sense for both Southport services to also continue to Victoria (and onwards to Leeds), but that may provoke the inevitable reactions from the "we need Castlefield" brigade.

Is that better than a 5ph metrolink service to central Manchester? I'm not sure...

It is not really an either/or, because realistically any Metrolink service would be many years further in the future than a 4tph heavy rail upgrade. 4tph heavy rail can provide much more capacity than 5tph of tram-trains, with the latter limited to about 60m length by the requirement for street running in the city centre. Unlike the existing Metrolink lines, tram-train frequency could not be increased to 10tph to add capacity, because of the need to leave gaps between them for heavy rail services. That makes tram-train a questionable choice for radial routes into the regional centre.

 

[geoffk]

Most of the route was 4-tracked in the past and while relocation of some infrastructure would be necessary the only difficult obstacle is the M60 bridge: one or other network would have to be single-track at this point. A pure Metrolink conversion would also mean that there would be no question of trying to fit in trams with trains at any point, just as well since it has proved near impossible to reliably path even a 4tph rail service on the Atherton line. It also seems to me that trying to fit in any sort of tram line through Hindley and into Wigan town centre would only be possible at huge expense. As such any such scheme might well only follow the current route as far out as Hag Fold before being routed on street to Leigh. Heavy rail services could thus be non-stop between Salford Crescent and Atherton where interchange between the two could take place.

I read of a proposal (whether fully worked out I don't know) which reinstated the four tracks as far as Walkden, one pair for trains and the other for trams. The trams would then join the old LNWR line at Walkden towards Little Hulton, Royal Bolton Hospital and Bolton. Some of this old rail route is a footpath but part has been built over so you would be looking at street running and a bridge over the M61 would be required. I expect this idea predated some of the house-building in the area.

 

[tbtc]

. a regular justification for some services running via Castlefield is that there’s nowhere suitable to terminate trains from the west after Victoria (so they “might as well” Run through Manchester Airport out whatever)… increasing the frequency of heavy rail services from Atherton seems to be making things worse in that respect

. Increasing the Atherton frequency into Manchester means using a path through Salford etc that could be used for increased services from Blackburn/ Preston/ Chat Moss etc… everything comes with opportunity cost

. Twenty minute frequencies on the heavy rail routes seem unrealistic, given that pretty much everything through Manchester is being standardised on thirty minute intervals… so Atherton would get either two or four trains an hour

. If people want to split the CLC at Warrington then it makes about as much sense as cutting everything at Wallgate so that Merseyrail can run everything from Southport and Kirkby to Wigan where they’d have cross platform interchange with Manchester services (nb both proposals seems daft but if you’re a proponent of chopping links like St Helens to Manchester then it’s hard to argue that Southport needs to retain its direct Manchester service)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

means using a path through Salford

What's the theoretical max tph through Salford Crescent without considering further points?
(how many trains could the station handle if when they left they vanished)

 

[Greybeard33]

. If people want to split the CLC at Warrington then it makes about as much sense as cutting everything at Wallgate so that Merseyrail can run everything from Southport and Kirkby to Wigan where they’d have cross platform interchange with Manchester services (nb both proposals seems daft but if you’re a proponent of chopping links like St Helens to Manchester then it’s hard to argue that Southport needs to retain its direct Manchester service)

Who is proposing chopping links between St Helens and Manchester?! And the latest proposal from TfN and the MTF is for a whole route upgrade of the CLC instead of splitting services at Warrington - see this thread.

There is no possibility Southport will lose direct services to Manchester for the foreseeable future - OPSTA* will ensure that!

*Ormskirk, Preston and Southport Travellers' Association

 

[HSTEd]

It is not really an either/or, because realistically any Metrolink service would be many years further in the future than a 4tph heavy rail upgrade.

Is it?

I don't see where the paths in Central Manchester are going to come from for this upgrade.

Unlike the existing Metrolink lines, tram-train frequency could not be increased to 10tph to add capacity, because of the need to leave gaps between them for heavy rail services. That makes tram-train a questionable choice for radial routes into the regional centre.

What heavy rail services?

If we are converting Atherton to metrolink there would be none at all between Salford Crescent and the Crows Nest Junction, and from there its less than 5km to Wigan Wallgate, down an alignment with a 50/60mph linespeed.

A tram won't be substantially slower over that section than a regular train that has come via Bolton.

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't see where the paths in Central Manchester are going to come from for this upgrade.

Manchester Victoria has four through platforms that have only 9tphpd in the May 23 timetable. The MTF has proposed a couple of turnback sidings on the north side to enable reversals without crossing the throat or blocking a through platform.

What heavy rail services?

If we are converting Atherton to metrolink there would be none at all between Salford Crescent and the Crows Nest Junction, and from there its less than 5km to Wigan Wallgate, down an alignment with a 50/60mph linespeed.

A tram won't be substantially slower over that section than a regular train that has come via Bolton.

There are regular freight services over the Atherton line - 2tpd Merseyside binliners returning to the Knowsley terminal (on the Kirkby line) from an Energy from Waste plant at Wilton (Teeside).

Crow Nest Jn to Wigan is a two track alignment that could not be widened (the L&Y Fast lines to Liverpool used to bypass Wigan to the south) and has two stations (Hindley and Ince). It would not be feasible to interleave heavy rail trains to/from Bolton between Atherton tram-trains running with 6 minute headways. The tram-trains would have to divert on to an on-street route that would be much slower and very costly and disruptive to build.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair sticking it up the road would allow Hindley to be better served (the present station is at the edge of town) and would serve part of Ince that presently has no rail service either. However, a double track rail formation should really be able to handle 7tph (5 Atherton trams and 2 Southports) in each direction quite easily, particularly if everything stops at both Ince and Hindley; Merseyrail's Northern Line core handles 12tphpd on a double track railway including turnbacks, and Thameslink more still. It would mean needing to use tram-train vehicles, but there'll need to be new procurement for Atherton anyway (there aren't enough M5000s), so this isn't a barrier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2023 ==

Crow Nest Jn to Wigan is a two track alignment that could not be widened (the L&Y Fast lines to Liverpool used to bypass Wigan to the south) and has two stations (Hindley and Ince). It would not be feasible to interleave heavy rail trains to/from Bolton between Atherton tram-trains running with 6 minute headways. The tram-trains would have to divert on to an on-street route that would be much slower and very costly and disruptive to build.

Where do you get 6 minute headways from? 5tph is the standard for Metrolink which is a 12 minute headway. I don't think going to the enhanced peak frequency which is run on parts of (not all of) Metrolink would be necessary, certainly not at the outer end of the route as it nears Wigan, though you might I suppose want some Walkden or Swinton turnbacks where the area gets really built up and much higher density.

To use the pretty good comparison provided by the Oldham route, the 6 minute headway only operates as far as Shaw and Crompton, not all the way, which makes sense as from Wigan, Ince and Hindley a lot of people will use heavy rail via Bolton instead as it'll be quicker (though I don't doubt the tram will be very attractive for Ince and Hindley to Wigan trips).

Thinking on you'd need tram trains anyway as Ince and Hindley will be electrified at 25kVAC.

 

[The Planner]

Where do you get 6 minute headways from? 5tph is the standard for Metrolink which is a 12 minute headway. I don't think going to the enhanced peak frequency which is run on parts of (not all of) Metrolink would be necessary, certainly not at the outer end of the route as it nears Wigan, though you might I suppose want some Walkden or Swinton turnbacks where the area gets really built up and much higher density.

To use the pretty good comparison provided by the Oldham route, the 6 minute headway only operates as far as Shaw and Crompton, not all the way, which makes sense as from Wigan, Ince and Hindley a lot of people will use heavy rail via Bolton instead as it'll be quicker (though I don't doubt the tram will be very attractive for Ince and Hindley to Wigan trips).

Thinking on you'd need tram trains anyway as Ince and Hindley will be electrified at 25kVAC.

We can't plan trains closer than 8 minutes apart if a train is stopping at Hag Fold and Daisy Hill between Walkden and Crow Nest. You can do 4 minutes apart East of there and 3 minutes apart from Crow Nest to Wigan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We can't plan trains closer than 8 minutes apart if a train is stopping at Hag Fold and Daisy Hill between Walkden and Crow Nest. You can do 4 minutes apart East of there and 3 minutes apart from Crow Nest to Wigan.

Presumably that's with the existing signalling, though? Metrolink would, other than west of Crow's Nest, presumably run on sight?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To be fair sticking it up the road would allow Hindley to be better served (the present station is at the edge of town) and would serve part of Ince that presently has no rail service either.

I must remember to put that particular point above to an old friend who has lived in Hindley for many years. He was critical of what occurred to both Cross Street and Corporation Street in central Manchester in terms of the length of time that disruption occurred when the Metrolink line was being constructed in that area and has already expressed his views on the proposal for a tram connection from Heywood station (another station on the edge of town similar to Hindley) into the town centre.

 

[Greybeard33]

Presumably that's with the existing signalling, though? Metrolink would, other than west of Crow's Nest, presumably run on sight?

If the Atherton line is to be kept in the National Rail network for freight and diversions, it would have to remain block signalled. Although by the time a tram-train conversion got agreed and funded it could probably be ETCS moving block.

Investment would also be needed in electrification or new battery trains for the Southport line, so that Southport services could run via Bolton to clear the Atherton line for tram-trains.